High Voltage from Thin Air?

[DrStiffler]

@ Samedsoft----Video looks good. You and I are getting similar results but I am back to using a standard SEC Exciter.

@Ren---I am very anxious to see your setup running and see the results. I have been working with the earth ground as well as capacitors of various types at the towers. All I can say is that it is very difficult to really figure out at least with the poor equipment that I am working with.

@ Dr. Stiffler and Slayer---- I worked and worked with the Earth ground, battery, and AV plug. I could not get your setup to work Slayer but I came up with somethnig else that I thought I should share. I took your big AV pulg idea and gathered the ambient energy around the tower into a 2200uf 50 volt cap. That energy flow was enough to run my little solar spinning top pulse motor.

Here is the video of it :

YouTube - SEC running a pulse motor wirelessly

Cheers,

Lidmotor

@Lidmotor

First a bit of info I don't think I have placed in public yet, maybe wrong, brain cell loss great lately.

Anyway the voltage developed by a SEC 15-3 (PCB) is limited by two things, the Transistor and the type of Load. When you use a Neon, the Vo (voltage out) is limited to the breakdown voltage of the Neon. Now in the SEC 15-20 the design used multiple AV Plugs which each developed their own Vo and at the end of the line was the Neon that was limiting. When using LED's the Vo is set by how many LED's you have in series or parallel and will rise for a series string to a level that will cause the reverse breakdown in the transistor to destroy it. There is in theory the possibility of developing 'infinite' voltage, except we run into many, many limitations, such as the circuit itself, ionization, humidity etc., so limits exist, yet you can get it up there.

Another thing that set the voltage and I will not go into detail, is the bandwidth of the Exciter. Next is the bandwidth and what actually responds to the output, this is where people can sometimes light FL's and Neons and sometimes only one or the other.

Looks like you are getting a better feel for this little beast The Sec 18 will blow you away and it has a built in tuning indicator and Beta loss protection along with no L1.

Great work indeed you are doing.............

[Lidmotor]

Dear Santa---- All I want for Christmas is a SEC 18

@Lidmotor

First a bit of info I don't think I have placed in public yet, maybe wrong, brain cell loss great lately.

Anyway the voltage developed by a SEC 15-3 (PCB) is limited by two things, the Transistor and the type of Load. When you use a Neon, the Vo (voltage out) is limited to the breakdown voltage of the Neon. Now in the SEC 15-20 the design used multiple AV Plugs which each developed their own Vo and at the end of the line was the Neon that was limiting. When using LED's the Vo is set by how many LED's you have in series or parallel and will rise for a series string to a level that will cause the reverse breakdown in the transistor to destroy it. There is in theory the possibility of developing 'infinite' voltage, except we run into many, many limitations, such as the circuit itself, ionization, humidity etc., so limits exist, yet you can get it up there.

Another thing that set the voltage and I will not go into detail, is the bandwidth of the Exciter. Next is the bandwidth and what actually responds to the output, this is where people can sometimes light FL's and Neons and sometimes only one or the other.

Looks like you are getting a better feel for this little beast The Sec 18 will blow you away and it has a built in tuning indicator and Beta loss protection along with no L1.

Great work indeed you are doing.............

@ Dr. S
Thanks for explaining to me what is going on as I slowly learn the dynamics of the device. What an amazing creation. It is a "little beast" but rewarding to work with when it is tuned right. As you told Sas, if it is out of tune it will draw too much juice and overheat the transistor or the lights don't light up bright. The SEC 18 that you describe with the tuning indicator sounds great. I will hang a special stocking for one at Christmas if you want to drop one down my chimney. Maybe just the circuit diagram??

@ Ren
I have measured the amp draw before and I show it is in some of my other videos. The range is between 3mA all the way up to 150mA. The problem is that I don't trust the readings. My meters (digital and analogue) are just such poor quality they are not accurate. The way that I compensate is to load up a supercapacitor with a set voltage and observe that discharge rate. On this last setup the energy is ALL OVER and any measurements would be hard. I took the big AV plug and placed it right next to the source battery and measured over 100v. And yes this arrangement charges up a battery great----right out of thin air.

Lidmotor

[ren]

@ Dr. S The SEC 18 that you describe with the tuning indicator sounds great. I will hang a special stocking for one at Christmas if you want to drop one down my chimney. Maybe just the circuit diagram??

@ Ren
I have measured the amp draw before and I show it is in some of my other videos. The range is between 3mA all the way up to 150mA. The problem is that I don't trust the readings. My meters (digital and analogue) are just such poor quality they are not accurate. The way that I compensate is to load up a supercapacitor with a set voltage and observe that discharge rate. On this last setup the energy is ALL OVER and any measurements would be hard. I took the big AV plug and placed it right next to the source battery and measured over 100v. And yes this arrangement charges up a battery great----right out of thin air.

Lidmotor

Lol, Sec 18 for christmas sounds great!

Cheers for the info Lid. Im looking forward to trying that setup out.

Dr Stiffler, you mentioned one of the limiting factors can be the load. If the MPS is used is its max rated voltage to be strictly adhered to? Wouldnt 48 LEDs in series be higher than this? Should a neon bulb be used to restrict any parts of the circuit to prevent damage? Transistors arent too bad I guess, its not like they cost alot, but Id hate to blow all the LED's I just ordered.

Regards

[DrStiffler]

Lol, Sec 18 for christmas sounds great!

Cheers for the info Lid. Im looking forward to trying that setup out.

Dr Stiffler, you mentioned one of the limiting factors can be the load. If the MPS is used is its max rated voltage to be strictly adhered to? Wouldnt 48 LEDs in series be higher than this? Should a neon bulb be used to restrict any parts of the circuit to prevent damage? Transistors arent too bad I guess, its not like they cost alot, but Id hate to blow all the LED's I just ordered.

Regards

@ren

Please don't take this wrong and think it is a SmartA.. answer..............

You need to look at the circuit and note just where this HV is at. About the only time you will see voltage on the collector that will exceed its spec. is if you exceed ~34V supply, at this level you will blow xistors right and left.

Well as far as blowing the LED's, yeah it can happen. In the old documentation I advise adding a diode in reverse polarity across the AV Plug so the reverse spikes will not kill them. I have no solution for forward surges that can and do happen should the lattice open further (unknown why as yet) and it will wipe a few out. Also when this happens your diodes will do all weird. Checking them will say they are good, but they flat out will not work properly any longer.

Grit your teeth and enjoy, remember this is fringe science

[DrStiffler]

Buying LED's

I am getting the idea a lot of people are paying and arm and leg fro LED's. I would think a few people that are friends or trust each other could group together and order in volume.

I have ordered thousands from Besthongkong - Eastern LED Source Shop: Loose LED, High Power LED, Car Auto LED, LED Light Bulbs, LED Strips, LED Flashlight, LED Module

I have never found a bad one from them. In orders of 1K you can get SuperWhites for $0.10 each.

Just a thought/////////

[ren]

Hi Dr S.

No worries about the comments before. It will all start to slowly sink in Im sure over time for me.

Great thought with the LEDs. I looked at the price in the local store and was gritting my teeth. I found a deal on ebay that made things a little cheaper however. 50 white LEDs 140,000 mcd for about $20.00, which was acceptable.

It wasnt until I looked closer that I realized for about $30.00 more I could get thousands. Mine are from China I believe.

Fringe science is all good with me Doc.

[Lidmotor]

"One dollar in ---Two dollars back"

@Dr. Stiffler I hope that you don't mind me doing this but I watched this old video of yours over and over today and I wanted to share it with the people who have successfully replicated your device. You show in this video the power coming OUT of an old ESEC2 (CEC of 2) by using a big capacitor and a toaster element as the load. For those of us who are struggling with measurements of IN vs OUT maybe here is a way to see it. It is a way to count the joules of energy by filling a capacitor of a known value to a certain level. I liked the question that you posed at the end of the video. My answer is---- Yeah. I think that I could find a use for that.

YouTube - What could we do with a ESEC

Lidmotor

[DrStiffler]

@Dr. Stiffler I hope that you don't mind me doing this but I watched this old video of yours over and over today and I wanted to share it with the people who have successfully replicated your device. You show in this video the power coming OUT of an old ESEC2 (CEC of 2) by using a big capacitor and a toaster element as the load. For those of us who are struggling with measurements of IN vs OUT maybe here is a way to see it. It is a way to count the joules of energy by filling a capacitor of a known value to a certain level. I liked the question that you posed at the end of the video. My answer is---- Yeah. I think that I could find a use for that.

YouTube - What could we do with a ESEC

Lidmotor

@Lidmotor
First let me ask a question, why hasn't some lurker (lab with required equipment) come out of the shadows and tried to put everyone out of their misery?

No using a cap has many built in problems. You need to know you cap better than a family member. The cap parameters must be known and understood and known at different charge discharge rates. It really is not as simple as the 101 text book J=1/2(CV^2). You have a complex circuit in a capacity and it contains all of the basic elements, capacity, resistance, inductance, leakage and dielectric storage. The dielectric does not allow for a full discharge unless properly cycled during the test period. This can be shown with a cap you charge up, short out (big bang) and then set it down to rest and wow! another bang, not as big, but meaningful energy.

So in short if you charge over time and discharge over time you still may suffer inaccuracies greater than other methods. You will never see a gain unless all the problems are controlled to do with the dynamics of the capacitor itself. A side note, it really takes a DSO to insure the cap internals (see my paper on Scribd).

Every one wants to use capacitors and batteries, two very dynamic and very often untruthful components.

So what are you saying, the methods I show in the Measurements Document do not work?

Granted if one tries to study the RF, no home replicator can get close, you need calibrated RF Meters, rotating tables able to be moved 360' as well as up and down around a ground surface, and a lot of free space or an RF chamber.

Yet there is no reason why with proper layout and filters one can not see a CEC that removes the margin of error. Remember we are dealing with TEM and LEM wave, plus a change in the local environment when this is all going on. I see no reason why it should be impossible to use filters a good shielded meter (the 3.99 Harbor Freight guys just don't work) and see a CEC of (2). That is good enough for proving the point, leave it to the rest of us to get the big numbers.

[Lidmotor]

Oops---Sorry. Just trying to help.

@Lidmotor
First let me ask a question, why hasn't some lurker (lab with required equipment) come out of the shadows and tried to put everyone out of their misery?

No using a cap has many built in problems. You need to know you cap better than a family member. The cap parameters must be known and understood and known at different charge discharge rates. It really is not as simple as the 101 text book J=1/2(CV^2). You have a complex circuit in a capacity and it contains all of the basic elements, capacity, resistance, inductance, leakage and dielectric storage. The dielectric does not allow for a full discharge unless properly cycled during the test period. This can be shown with a cap you charge up, short out (big bang) and then set it down to rest and wow! another bang, not as big, but meaningful energy.

So in short if you charge over time and discharge over time you still may suffer inaccuracies greater than other methods. You will never see a gain unless all the problems are controlled to do with the dynamics of the capacitor itself. A side note, it really takes a DSO to insure the cap internals (see my paper on Scribd).

Every one wants to use capacitors and batteries, two very dynamic and very often untruthful components.

So what are you saying, the methods I show in the Measurements Document do not work?

Granted if one tries to study the RF, no home replicator can get close, you need calibrated RF Meters, rotating tables able to be moved 360' as well as up and down around a ground surface, and a lot of free space or an RF chamber.

Yet there is no reason why with proper layout and filters one can not see a CEC that removes the margin of error. Remember we are dealing with TEM and LEM wave, plus a change in the local environment when this is all going on. I see no reason why it should be impossible to use filters a good shielded meter (the 3.99 Harbor Freight guys just don't work) and see a CEC of (2). That is good enough for proving the point, leave it to the rest of us to get the big numbers.

@ Dr. S
I'm sorry. I was just trying to help those of us with meager means get a handle on the "little beast". I am on your side. Accurate measurement is way more complicated than it seems if I understand you correctly. I found and read the Measurements Document that you posted and the next thing that I have to do is build the filters and buy a better (shielded) meter. You CAN NOT just stick a cheap meter on a cap or battery and tell anything. There is too much RF flying around and the variables with the caps, batteries and local environment make the readings meaningless.
Still your video gave me great hope for something that many of us have been dreaming about for a long time. CEC of (2).

Lidmotor

[DrStiffler]

@ Dr. S
I'm sorry. I was just trying to help those of us with meager means get a handle on the "little beast". I am on your side. Accurate measurement is way more complicated than it seems if I understand you correctly. I found and read the Measurements Document that you posted and the next thing that I have to do is build the filters and buy a better (shielded) meter. You CAN NOT just stick a cheap meter on a cap or battery and tell anything. There is too much RF flying around and the variables with the caps, batteries and local environment make the readings meaningless.
Still your video gave me great hope for something that many of us have been dreaming about for a long time. CEC of (2).

Lidmotor

@Lidmotor
Hey! I'm not upset or picking on you at all, what my curt responses got in the way again.....

Here is the answer to the first question. No lab with the right equipment has felt threatened yet. Gather around the coffee pot and say things like, 'Oh hell that's because. or heck it just, ah! they don't understand the basics'

And.. Not until I and many others either show a use for exciters and a CEC>1 will anyone worry about the whole thing. Once this changes then watch out, no one wants to get in the middle of it.

Man I took a course when I was at the U on how to handle difficult people, it was a management requirement, I guess I just became difficult.

[Lidmotor]

SEC goes to sea

@ All
I'm going on a 5 day sailing trip in my sailboat and taking along my SEC to try at sea. I will be trying it out as a light at a very dark anchorage over at Catalina Island. I'll also try using the Pacific ocean as the ground instead of the earth ground at home. The ground wire will be conected to the thru hull fittings of the boat which connect to the sea. I will be taking a laptop computer with me that connects to the internet via a cell phone adapter so I might be able report my findings while I am gone. Cell phone reception over at the island is iffy though. The island is 30 miles off the coast from L.A.

Good luck all with your projects.

@ Dr. S
I am pretty sure that my SEC is putting out the correct numbers right now. When I get home I just have to get the proper setup together and test it.

Lidmotor

[Parav]

@ All
I'm going on a 5 day sailing trip in my sailboat and taking along my SEC to try at sea. I will be trying it out as a light at a very dark anchorage over at Catalina Island. I'll also try using the Pacific ocean as the ground instead of the earth ground at home. The ground wire will be conected to the thru hull fittings of the boat which connect to the sea. I will be taking a laptop computer with me that connects to the internet via a cell phone adapter so I might be able report my findings while I am gone. Cell phone reception over at the island is iffy though. The island is 30 miles off the coast from L.A.

Good luck all with your projects.

@ Dr. S
I am pretty sure that my SEC is putting out the correct numbers right now. When I get home I just have to get the proper setup together and test it.

Lidmotor

Hi Lid,

Which SEC set up are you going to be using? Will you be taking your video gear with you?

You have a safe trip and we'll be looking forward as usual to seeing your ideas and results -- I've learned so much from your videos in the past year or so --keep up the great work.

Parav

[Shamus]

Hi Doc,

Sorry to bother you with stuff like this but I'm having trouble sourcing the 400pF part at 500V and can find none as dipped silver mica. As a matter of fact, the highest voltage rating I can find for dipped silver mica at 400pF is 50V. I was just wondering two things: If you meant 500V on the parts list and if it has to be dipped silver mica (or can just be mica) in order to be considered a true replication.

EDIT: Found some 500V parts, dipped silver mica on Ebay. Newark, Mouser and Digikey all failed me. Still would like to know if you really meant the 500V part though.

Also wondering where y'all are getting your perf board. Used to be you could get large sheets of it at Radio Shack (oh, how the mighty have fallen) for a couple of bucks without any of those useless solder donuts on the back, but now it seems I can't find any for a decent price. Anyone care to share where they're sourcing theirs?

[DrStiffler]

Hi Doc,

Sorry to bother you with stuff like this but I'm having trouble sourcing the 400pF part at 500V and can find none as dipped silver mica. As a matter of fact, the highest voltage rating I can find for dipped silver mica at 400pF is 50V. I was just wondering two things: If you meant 500V on the parts list and if it has to be dipped silver mica (or can just be mica) in order to be considered a true replication.

EDIT: Found some 500V parts, dipped silver mica on Ebay. Newark, Mouser and Digikey all failed me. Still would like to know if you really meant the 500V part though.

Also wondering where y'all are getting your perf board. Used to be you could get large sheets of it at Radio Shack (oh, how the mighty have fallen) for a couple of bucks without any of those useless solder donuts on the back, but now it seems I can't find any for a decent price. Anyone care to share where they're sourcing theirs?

@Shamus
The caps I have in stock from large order some time ago and I am not sure they are indeed made any longer. I did fine some in the following link for someone else, but now it appears they have gone into history. This link is the only place I know of that has the old REAL components, might watch and see if any reappear.

Micas, Dipped Radial - 1pF to 299pF

As far as the boards I use (perf) they are from a private supplier in China. I know JameCo still carries it.

[DrStiffler]

@Shamus
The caps I have in stock from large order some time ago and I am not sure they are indeed made any longer. I did fine some in the following link for someone else, but now it appears they have gone into history. This link is the only place I know of that has the old REAL components, might watch and see if any reappear.

Micas, Dipped Radial - 1pF to 299pF

As far as the boards I use (perf) they are from a private supplier in China. I know JameCo still carries it.

HERE THEY ARE:

Axial Molded Micas: 240 pF - 750pF