Gray Tube Replication

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

Exactly how close was your first measurement and how far away was the second measurement?

First measurement was immediately adjacent to the HV lead, 2nd measurement was 1 meter away and voltage was the same, however I did just now try further distances, and it indeed does drop off after 1 meter with distance, I had 10v roughly 5M away. So it looks like you have to have your collecting plates within a meter.

What kind of capacitor and value was employed?

Same as my HV discharge cap, 166nF at 6kv (I have two sets).

What kind of instrument did you use to measure the 120V?

Mark McKay

I have a fluke 78 multimeter across the cap, there is also a 2Mohm discharge resistor across the cap, so I could definitely see the voltage building up or discharging when no energy present.

I have had up to 200v with the very small 5 square inch copper plate, wish I had something bigger to try. However, I do have some 0.9mm copper plate being punched full of holes as we speak, so should have some grids to try out soon ..

I do wonder if the grids should be a combination of copper and aluminium though as was reported to be the case in the Testatika machine.

Cheers,
Bernie

[Spokane1]

Experiment Details

Hi Guys .. an update on my experiments.

I placed a small (a few sq inches) copper plate (since I don't have my grids yet) close to the high voltage end of the spark gap and connected to another high voltage cap, the other end of this cap to my common GND.

I noticed that I got >120v DC charged on the cap just before the gap fired.
I am guessing that what I am seeing is pure radiant energy. From my understanding it is the bunching up of electrons/ions just before the gap firing that causes the radiation.

So I moved the copper plate far from the HV line and guess what, I still got the same sort of voltage ... very encouraging, as longitudinal waves should not decrease energy with distance.

Next experiment will be with an inductor in series with the cap.
Any other suggestions welcome. It's weekend here, so will have time again.

Cheers,
Bernie

Dear Bernie,

Exactly how close was your first measurement and how far away was the second measurement?

What kind of capacitor and value was employed?

What kind of instrument did you use to measure the 120V?

I have also done these kinds of measurements but the magnitude always decreased with distance. It sees there has got to be some falloff at some distance - say 100 ft.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Hi Guys .. an update on my experiments.

I placed a small (a few sq inches) copper plate (since I don't have my grids yet) close to the high voltage end of the spark gap and connected to another high voltage cap, the other end of this cap to my common GND.

I noticed that I got >120v DC charged on the cap just before the gap fired.
I am guessing that what I am seeing is pure radiant energy. From my understanding it is the bunching up of electrons/ions just before the gap firing that causes the radiation.

So I moved the copper plate far from the HV line and guess what, I still got the same sort of voltage ... very encouraging, as longitudinal waves should not decrease energy with distance.

Next experiment will be with an inductor in series with the cap.
Any other suggestions welcome. It's weekend here, so will have time again.

Cheers,
Bernie

[boguslaw]

Fixed Polypropylene Film Dielectric Metal Foil DC Capacitors Type CBB13 Product Photos,Fixed Polypropylene Film Dielectric Metal Foil DC Capacitors Type CBB13 Product pictures -

they are not useful because as you said there is only one or two per CRT and those are small in size (higher ESR) and capacitance

[Wicaksono]

blue caps picture ?

are you sure ? are they those blue capacitors ? they are not very useful

I am wondering what are these blue capacitors ? Do you have any picture or info ? In CRT polypropylene capacitors only used in high frequency & high current circuit of CRT horizontal driver. But they were not too many, only 1 or 2 caps in one printed circuit board. So you really have to scavenge them from a lot of CRT.

Wicaksono

[boguslaw]

I just found out that polypropylene capacitor is used widely in television CRT and personal computer CRT. Since CRT is nearly obsolete (because of LCD) then anyone that need free polypropylene caps could scavenge them from tossed out CRT at electronic dumpster. Maybe after all of this is through we can make a championship of "Cheapest Gray & Tesla Technology Construction" .

Wicaksono

are you sure ? are they those blue capacitors ? they are not very useful

[Wicaksono]

scavenging polypropylene caps

Yes polypropylene caps ..

I just found out that polypropylene capacitor is used widely in television CRT and personal computer CRT. Since CRT is nearly obsolete (because of LCD) then anyone that need free polypropylene caps could scavenge them from tossed out CRT at electronic dumpster. Maybe after all of this is through we can make a championship of "Cheapest Gray & Tesla Technology Construction" .

Wicaksono

[Spokane1]

FFF Layout for Popping Coil Demo

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that info. Interesting that the winding is caduceous not bifilar, so did it have crossed windings both sides of the core, or just one side?

Cheers,
Betnie

Dear Bernie,

There is a photo in the "Top 10 Hints" paper I sent you on page 8. The FFF is in the center bottom (I have better photos of this component if you like). It appears to be two layers of 1/4" black cable wound in two layers around a 4" PVC (or ABS) plastic pipe section (22" long). There are just two simple coils one on top the other - four wire total. From the other photos the conductors seem to be single and non-shielded, they also appear to be pretty stiff. It is unknown if there is any apparatus in the center of the pipe, but the other photos don't show any wires entering the pipe from either end.

There is another FFF seen under a table in another GD photo. This unit is also composed to two layers of conductor of about 10 turns as well. It is about 8" in diameter, and again there doesn't appear to be anything inside of the coil form which appears to be Plexiglas.

There is also mention of a FFF in the Cannady Interview. There the FFF was composed of about 6 each loops (about 36" in diameter) of what appeared to the observer as being extension drop cord (I take it to be a black SO jacket). That application was just an open coil laid on a card table. Gray said it was to reduce TV interference (1973).

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

It appears to me that the site location for the electromagnet core to electromagnet core arc could took place any where along the length of these cores (about 1-1/2" x 6 " long). The FFF was located exactly between these cores with out overlapping any of them. There were two sets of stator electromagnets (18 per set) with the FFF between them. Whatever was being harvested was strongest at that location. The engine case was 3/4" aluminum with a 1/4" Teflon liner. The electromagnet mounting bolts were isolated from the case and then again insulated on the outside to prevent accidental contact. So, No the FFF is not wound around an arc location.

We know almost nothing about the FFF other than the first version employed a single turn of some kind of large cable. Later a smaller diameter wire was used and two turns were taken. That was one (or two) turns per power supply. I maintain that there were 18 power supplies. I liked the idea that the cable might have been a special high inductance radar cable, but I certainly don't know.

There is a photo of a FFF in the Valentine popping coil photo that is of a different design. It is about 4" and diameter and has 10 turns per layer. I assume two power supplies are used like the patent shows. The windings are wound as a caduses - definitely not bifilar.

What is odd about this technology is how quickly it change from version to version. The EMA4 was the only engine to have a FFF component. While the EMA6 was the only engine with a CEST. It appears that the "Blue Engine" had neither novel component. We put together some theory to explain one observation and then the next design does something different.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

Thanks for that info. Interesting that the winding is caduceous not bifilar, so did it have crossed windings both sides of the core, or just one side?

By the way, I have just breadboarded my driver circuit and can achieve a 7ns rise time 300v 100ns pulse to the grid ... so am very happy with that .. once I put it onto a PCB with the proper layout, I should get my 3ns ..
So I have a controller with a fixed fast 100ns on-time and a variable off time, which I will tune for best result..

Now if only those dang tubes would arrive ..

Cheers,
Betnie

[Spokane1]

FFF Location

Hi Mark,

Is there any way to confirm if the FFF was wound around the location of the arc exactly? Because as you know, a plasma in particular emits a huge magnetic field .. that's the only reason I can think of that makes placement critical ... if it was wound anywhere over the HV rod, then placement would not be critical ..

.. also, do we know if the FFF was a Bifilar winding?

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

It appears to me that the site location for the electromagnet core to electromagnet core arc could took place any where along the length of these cores (about 1-1/2" x 6 " long). The FFF was located exactly between these cores with out overlapping any of them. There were two sets of stator electromagnets (18 per set) with the FFF between them. Whatever was being harvested was strongest at that location. The engine case was 3/4" aluminum with a 1/4" Teflon liner. The electromagnet mounting bolts were isolated from the case and then again insulated on the outside to prevent accidental contact. So, No the FFF is not wound around an arc location.

We know almost nothing about the FFF other than the first version employed a single turn of some kind of large cable. Later a smaller diameter wire was used and two turns were taken. That was one (or two) turns per power supply. I maintain that there were 18 power supplies. I liked the idea that the cable might have been a special high inductance radar cable, but I certainly don't know.

There is a photo of a FFF in the Valentine popping coil photo that is of a different design. It is about 4" and diameter and has 10 turns per layer. I assume two power supplies are used like the patent shows. The windings are wound as a caduses - definitely not bifilar.

What is odd about this technology is how quickly it change from version to version. The EMA4 was the only engine to have a FFF component. While the EMA6 was the only engine with a CEST. It appears that the "Blue Engine" had neither novel component. We put together some theory to explain one observation and then the next design does something different.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

Now and then, around 2005, I saw a few sketches of a proposed arc located inside of the center of a loose wound helix coil. However these where half baked theory conception graphics. I have never seen one that was actually built.

The FFF might fit the bill since it is an inductor that is warped around the motor. The EMA4 had a multitude of active arcs being struck and stretched inside the motor case proper during the engine's operation. One observer reported how the engine seemed to develop a huge electrostatic charge on its outer case (Cannady 1973). Gray also mentioned this phenomena in the Jack Sacagnetti article (But he called it a magnetic field). So, something very active was going on.

It is my speculation the the original EMA3 engine's construction was halted in its early stages in order to employ a new engine case that was about 3" longer at its mid section to accommodate the FFF. Most of the remaining components were then canablized to make the successful EMA4. Cole must have had some good reason to go to all that expense to make that retrofit happen. So, the FFF had to be located at that location and I'm sure its purpose is more important than an EMI filter (But that is probably what Marvin told Gray). I suspect that the same phenomena that generated the huge electrostatic case potential was being partially harvested to pre-charge the storage capacitors - or something like that. With out a Cold Electricity generator we can't explore this secondary process just yet.

So when you speak of an inductor being wrapped around an arc chamber this is what I think of.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

Is there any way to confirm if the FFF was wound around the location of the arc exactly? Because as you know, a plasma in particular emits a huge magnetic field .. that's the only reason I can think of that makes placement critical ... if it was wound anywhere over the HV rod, then placement would not be critical ..

.. also, do we know if the FFF was a Bifilar winding?

Bernie

[Spokane1]

Inductor Wrapped around CEST

Hi Mark,


Question: Did anyone ever see an inductor wound around the outside of the CEST? If this was done on at least one model, then that would validate my assumption that the grids can be treated as an inductor/capacitor ...

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

Now and then, around 2005, I saw a few sketches of a proposed arc located inside of the center of a loose wound helix coil. However these where half baked theory conception graphics. I have never seen one that was actually built.

The FFF might fit the bill since it is an inductor that is warped around the motor. The EMA4 had a multitude of active arcs being struck and stretched inside the motor case proper during the engine's operation. One observer reported how the engine seemed to develop a huge electrostatic charge on its outer case (Cannady 1973). Gray also mentioned this phenomena in the Jack Sacagnetti article (But he called it a magnetic field). So, something very active was going on.

It is my speculation the the original EMA3 engine's construction was halted in its early stages in order to employ a new engine case that was about 3" longer at its mid section to accommodate the FFF. Most of the remaining components were then canablized to make the successful EMA4. Cole must have had some good reason to go to all that expense to make that retrofit happen. So, the FFF had to be located at that location and I'm sure its purpose is more important than an EMI filter (But that is probably what Marvin told Gray). I suspect that the same phenomena that generated the huge electrostatic case potential was being partially harvested to pre-charge the storage capacitors - or something like that. With out a Cold Electricity generator we can't explore this secondary process just yet.

So when you speak of an inductor being wrapped around an arc chamber this is what I think of.

Mark McKay

[bmentink]

Dear Bernie,

Having the grids separated to serve other functions would make more engineering sense to me. My WAG for the morning would be that the inner grid provides the sudden electrostatic field. The second grid is the actual "harvest grid" of any anomalous energy that is projected from the reaction space between the first grid and the anode rod. IF this is so, then the aspect ratio of the device shown in the patent makes more sense than the one used for the EMA6 engine in 1976.

This is certainly a good topic of discussion.

Mark McKay

Hi Mark,

Makes more engineering sense to me too ..
Since we don't have a clear picture of the internal connection of the grids, I thought I might initially at least try connecting the grids the following way:

Assuming three grids.
From inner(1) to outer grids(3): I take the bottom of 1 to the connector, top of 1 to top of 2, bottom of 2 to bottom of 3, then take top of 3 to the connector. This connects the grids as a 3-turn inductor. Because of the holes, all grids will be acted on by the radiant electrostatic energy as well(capacitive), so I think we can treat the two wires as a parallel resonant circuit and extract the energy from that ..

Question: Did anyone ever see an inductor wound around the outside of the CEST? If this was done on at least one model, then that would validate my assumption that the grids can be treated as an inductor/capacitor ...

By the way. I played around last night tying to figure out the best location for my Thyratron switch in the LV circuit. As you know I have a Bifilar wound inductor in there. I found that the arc could be stop/started much easier if the switch was at the center point of the inductor, i.e. there is 1/2 the inductor either side of the switch/Thyratron .. it did not seem to work as well at the "cold" battery end of the LV circuit.

Bernie

[Spokane1]

The CEST grid connections

What is not clear, is what the connection is to the grids. The patent clearly shows two wires to the grids though everyone connects the grids together. I think grids one and three should be brought out and treated as a capacitor, not as a single connection, or the grids are internally connected as a 3 turn inductor and again two wires brought out .. what do you think?

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

I have also wondered about that issue myself. You are right the elevation drawing of the CEST in the patent does show two individual conductors going to the outside, however the schematic only shows a single connection to a single "grid". If this were an electrostatic process then the inner grid would be involved with all the field interaction while additional grids would just sit there. Even the concept of having holes in the copper didn't make much sense unless there was some kind of thermionic (or other kind) of emission going on. The CEST devises shown on the EMA6 engine didn't have holes in them.

The Bedini Field notes show the grids connected together, so it is natural for researchers to assume that they were connected together since everyone was lacking a theory of operation and I'm sure the patent didn't disclose all there was to know about these devices. I'm also sure that Gray didn't have a clue as to how these devices worked when he finally applied for the patent in 1986.

Having the grids separated to serve other functions would make more engineering sense to me. My WAG for the morning would be that the inner grid provides the sudden electrostatic field. The second grid is the actual "harvest grid" of any anomalous energy that is projected from the reaction space between the first grid and the anode rod. IF this is so, then the aspect ratio of the device shown in the patent makes more sense than the one used for the EMA6 engine in 1976.

This is certainly a good topic of discussion.

Mark McKay

[Spokane1]

Another Look at the CEST Device

Hi Mark,

I think the Gray tube grids can be concidered both a capacitor AND an inductor. As an inductor secondary ( The primary is the central rod) it picks up the magnetic field from the rod. It also is a capacitor and picks up the radient energy from the central rod, so I would suggest that the grid is a parallel resonant circuit that should be brought into resonance by the impulse frequency of the spark OR as a delay line so that the spark pulse on time matches or is slightly less than the inductive delay of the grids.

Bernie

Dear Bernie,

I have never looked at the CSET in that light, but you are right. If they could maintain the proper frequency then the fundamental interaction between the fields would be the same as what I propose happened in the Hendershot and Bedini systems. But the window of operation, I suspect, would be very narrow and some huge currents would be needed through the "anode". The anode might also have been iron to facilitate this kind of process. This is what Gary Magratten used in 2006 when he made some weird observations with his simple CEST. He used a 3/8" zinc coated steel construction rod from the hardware store.

As I understand it the CEST devices were already fabricated when Mr. Hackenberger come on line in 1971. He probably didn't have a clue as to how these devices were intended to operate. If so then he might have made some minor adjustments in their connections and/or construction that made them useless.

IF my time line is somewhat correct then the original five motors were equipped with thyratron devices and driven with vacuum tube circuits. They very well could have developed the proper high frequency necessary to get these things in an OU mode. Gray could have kept these motors from Hack to prevent him from knowing about them and the fact that he had stolen them from the original investors.

I wonder why none of this HF driving circuitry was displayed when John Bedini came to visit in 1973?

Anyway this is a good concept to explore and one that I don't think anyone has looked into. At least you have a theory that will provide for engineering judgment and instrumentation layout.

Mark McKay