Gray Tube Replication

[baroutologos]

i have tested again today.
In any case my current setup (tube and LV source) a metal piece is attracted to coil far more powerful from the LV source alone than with the two discharges combined and to grid.

Directly contrary to what you suggesting. What have i to alter to see the difference?

Baroutolgoos

[Aaron]

comparison

Here's the bottom line.

If you use the CDI plasma circuit with the ignition coil, it is a known amount
of potential sitting in that cap. It is a known amount of potential that is
sitting in the LV cap. Trigger the circuit and launch a projectile from the
coil and see how high and how fast it travels.

Then take the combined amount of potential in both those caps (above) and put
them in one cap then just do a conventional cap discharge into the coil using
the same total amount of potential and see how high and fast the exact
projectile goes.

Compare results. Also realize the significance of using higher voltages
in a cap and how the joules increase by the square of the voltage.

In my motor, I was sometimes using over 1200v discharges. I couldn't
get much more than that because the microwave transformer limitations.

With the rf burst in those shots, is is caused from the energy in the circuit
itself or is it coming into the circuit from the outside - because of a low
pressure sink that would pull more potential into the circuit?

[boguslaw]

Maybe diode acts as variable resistance dependent on voltage rise which allow longer time of resonance established... ? In other words , diode may help keeping resonant condition of LC circuit during discharge.
Just a rough guess...

[baroutologos]

Ok, i saw the scope shots. Actually all this time we are talking about unidirectional pulsing... only to find out that actually an oscillation takes place?

and how that RF oscillation can actually assist the net energy produced by the inductor? Somewhere here you lost me...

Baroutologos

[Aaron]

RF Burst Observed in Bench Test of Gotoluc Circuit by Mark McKay

All those things have to be looked at.

From your conventional training, try to find Mark McKay's simulation scope
shots to show the burst of RF that follows the hv. It may give you an insight.

I don't believe he is seeing a faster discharge here but look at that RF
burst.

By the way, not sure if that is a spice simulation scope shot or not,
may be from his actual test. Mark has everything you can think of
literally. He lives in my town and is a wealth of knowledge.

See this post:

http://www.energeticforum.com/60230-post2664.html

I'll repost for convenience:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

RF Burst Observed in Bench Test of Gotoluc Circuit
Gentlemen,

It appears that a sawtooth RF burst does take place in the Basic Gotoluc circuit almost like the SPICE III simulator describes.

This is not an exhaustive study but a simple test to see if it was there. The gap is composed of tool steel with the negative (ground) electrode being sharpened. The effect is much greater when the gap is opened up to just short of were it will not arc. In this case the gap is 0.284". The storage cap is a 25 uF 600V oil-paper motor starter type. The power supply is voltage regulated at 300V. The battery operates the contactor to isolate the capacitor from the power supply during a pulse test. The capacitor shunt diode is a little overkill for this application (770 Amp) but I needed something that would handle 30 Amps. The HV diode is a 4-unit string of 8KV at 4 Amp microwave oven devices. The coil is a GM wasted spark model ($3.00 at the local junk yard). This coil has an isolated secondary which might be important because it allows for the polarity of the secondary to be reversed (See SPICE circuit on previous post).

The first scope trace shows the voltage across the gap as measured with a Tektronix 12KV probe. The probe is being driven past its linear range for the initial pulse but it does show the follow up burst wave form OK. The effect only shows voltage swings around 500V. This means that the arc will re-strike at a much lower voltage than the initial breakdown, which is around 15KV in this test, but way off the screen.

The second scope trace is a time expanded version of the first trace. Here we see the sawtooth nature of this process. Notice how the magnitude of the wave train remains relatively constant. The frequency of a single tooth during this portion of the burst is around 116 KHz. The actual frequency content would be higher than this due to its shape. This sample was taken from the last third of the burst where the frequency is slowing down anyway.

It will be interesting to see if this effect can be enhanced.

This observation might help those OU theories that require a HF source to explain any proposed non-classical process.

Spokane1
Attached Thumbnails

[baroutologos]

The cap discharges faster huh?
Only an o-scope could tell the difference actually as you point.

Two things if that is the case. ohms law is violated or indeed the LV is "accelarated" to a higher voltage. Hence faster discharge at given resitance/impedance inductor (always same voltage levels at the LV cap)

If you put it that way, it gives me the impression that the HV goes first into the inductor, makes a short "path" say 1u sec of 10amps (momentarily) and as its voltage declines (of the HV cap) and its current also, it is maintained somewhow by the LV side. Thus no current change in the inductor, and more work can be collected?
....

Have you made any quantitative analysis? i.e. how much volume of HV (energy) is required to have the effect at a acceptable degree on the LV side?

In the bottom line, if we have such effect (even though demonstrated have a difficulty to believe...) in order to get the max out of it we should have an appropriate motor of maximum performance?

Can as an inductive load, an transformer be applied? In fact i did some minor experiments with a 220/12 volts transformer. The primary has an inductance of 1.5 H! The high voltage sparks to the grid, the LV refuses to follow. ( the same case with the caps filled at almost equal voltage as the LV side)

Perhaps we should look for golden ratio?

Baroutologos

[Aaron]

negative resistance

Did you see Greg's scope shots in this thread that show that with the diode
effect on the ignition circuit that the lv source capacitor discharges
FASTER than without the effect?

This is a very profound concept.

I found the EXACT same thing in all varieties of these Gray circuits.

You can only see if it you put a scope across the LV capacitor and
do a regular discharge, then do it with the mixing effect, it discharges
faster with the mixing effect.

Think about this. You take a cap and discharge it into a coil. The capacitor
can only discharge so fast because of resistances and impedances.

If you do something that causes the capacitor to discharge faster into
a coil, what do you think happened to the impedance or resistance that
the discharge should see? How can it discharge FASTER?

The resistance is REDUCED. There is less opposition to the discharge
pressure, which indicates that the discharge pressure is seeing a much
lower pressure zone to jump into. That means there is a negative
resistance effect.

The coil is able to charge faster it appears and lenz/ohm law appears to
be violated.

Please read this post very carefully:

http://www.energeticforum.com/42113-post365.html

Look closely at those scope shots! You can see the difference in
discharge speed. With the reverse diode/mixing effect, about 66%
of the cap is discharged almost instantaneously! I found the same
tendency in my circuits after Greg pointed this out.

The HV prefers the easier path to ground at the LV route. When it gets
turned away and moves towards the grid or next available aground, it
leaves a true vacuum. I believe there is no ambient aether existing
around the wire in that part of the circuit where it was turned away.
The aether that normally exists around the conductors is what I believe
limits the voltage to near light speed. The positive voltage is pushing
against "ambient" positive part of the aether around the wire and limits
is speed.

If that aether is gone and true vacuum is there that actually does not
have the aether, it is a literal low pressure zone for any positive potential
instead of being a resistance, it is a negative resistance and that helps
the actively suck the potential from the lv source.

If that confuses you, I apologize but I couldn't find a diagram that I
thought I posted about this.

[baroutologos]

I do not know if the pulse is sharper and faster. My hand does not telling me such a thing. I guess we required specialized equipment to take measurements that way.

...

By the way, i googled and found out few things about the Imris Pavel. Regarding his patent i mentioned US 3,781,601 he clearly states at the end of the patent that.
"for example, the high voltage embodiment (FIG2) may be used in a variety of circuits such as flash lamps, high speed control devices, laser beams and high energy pulses."

look at FIg 2. It is a variation of the Gray tube.
I serched about the Imris Pavel, to find out if he is any upstart free-energist claimer and just copy-cats the Gray tube.
Actually at Pavel Imris: Optical Electrostatic Generator -- 900% Efficiency , here patents from Pavel are displayed.
I hardly can see any individual possessing so many patents, except Tesla of course .

Perhaps he has a point.

Baroutologos

[Aaron]

mixing field

Baroutologos,

Yes, there is serious rf with these circuits. I was difficult for me to
use digital meters because it would turn them off constantly.

This mixing has a different magnetic kick from what I can tell. It seems
to be FASTER/SHARPER. The LV source capacitor discharges QUICKER
than it does without this mixing event. That means the energy density
is quite a bit higher.

The magnetic field seems to be more concentrated over the area of the
core with a sharper quicker punch.

With a normal capacitor discharge, the magnetic field can be felt more
evenly distributed over more space where it does no good.

With the mixing, it seems to be concentrated exactly where you want it.

[baroutologos]

Aaron,

i spent many hours today aplicating many things. I managed to make it work correctly. Tha problem was that my coil has been burned and shorted and acted like a straight wire most of the times.

I di several tests. As you say actually, the LV side is just sitting there and the HV side is culminating till a spark initiates the procedure.
Moreover, i did what you say, i manually make and break the circuit at the LV side and the same thing occurs.

By the way, the spark gaps and the flashes produce serious RF. My DMM go grazy if connected single wire and my little electronic calculator makes odd things in the vicinity of the device. But in terms of inductor kicking... the same as far i can tell.

Nevertheless, i will post few more photos of the HV pulsing side. (i am not familiar with videos and neither have made any so far ) btw i will try.

In any case, Aaron, do you experience stronger kick of the inductor by the merging procedure?

@Nat,

I am hopelessly conventionally thinker. I cannot see any crucial employment of the resistor (variable actually), except of what the patent states. i.e. Limiting the current of LV side.


Baroutologos

[Aaron]

mixing

Mark McKay also did simulations on this and it showed something similar
to what he found in the Bedini circuits.

With the "mixing", the simulations hows it isn't synchronized and that there
is a delay. There is the hv, then there is an enormous burst of what looks
like some serious RF...very incredible actually.

[Aaron]

test this

From my tests so far, i cannot even convice myself that the HV-LV merge has any potential in it.

I would get it working right first before deciding.

Can you do the below test? Forget about the tube and everything else.
What the below is, is basically nothing more than a peaking cap in
parallel with a spark plug. Disconnect it from your tube system and the
rest of the LV side.

Can you do this and post a pic of the spark or post a youtube video?

[nat1971a]

I see the conversion tube working in either of 2 ways or a combination there of

1. to produce aether gas via HV and resistance

or

2. to produce radiant energy by producing a radiant matter stream via the vacuum triode which thens hits a negatively charge grid via the overshoot

given that you arent using a vacuum triode what resistor are you using in your circuit. I am starting to form the opinion that gray was using some sort of composite material for his resistor - possibly an insulating powder joining the rods with the carbon

[baroutologos]

From my tests so far, i cannot even convice myself that the HV-LV merge has any potential in it.
After several charges discharges via the collision method and the plain discharge of the power capacitors (LV side) the kick felt by the electromagnet is the same or little worst with the merging of the voltages.

I have added an Elco cap (0.1f) with a diode (46#) as revised by TVfree, (ground to load) and i managed to collect some 20-30 % of the enegry released by the caps as BEMF ala Bedini style.

....
Without an indusctor as a load, i possition two electrolytic caps 450v 270uf in series and pulsed the draft tube. Neither in this case i got the faintest idea that the LV current is accelerated by the HV potential. Instead, after reaching the load caps some level, the LV side refused to spark anymore. only the HV continue the sparking.

Anyway, tried several stuf and had two "mild" electrecutions! Damn one hand rule... i always forget...

The more i play, the more i realize that the Switching Element conversion tube does what it says. Switching! As for conversion i am not conviced at all.
But it is very practical for switching, since the spark gap can handle KVs and KAmps at no time and no wear. (if properly made)

...
EDIT: I was thinking about the key points somewhere i read about gray machine.Keelynet - EVGRAY2.HTM - 02/24/00

1 and 2 are well understood. The 3rd point goes..
(3) lightning bolts seem to be more powerful when closer to the earth where the atmosphere is heaviest.

Gray quote claimed:

"And I've always been a nut about thunderstorms. I watched lightning by the the hours. I noticed how much stronger it appeared to be when closer to the earth and just naturally concluded that more air had something to do with it."

...
I naturally begun to think that a tube is a tube! Tha means it can contain air or another gas inside. It can also has a near vacuum or pressurized gas.

If we are take a look at Pavel Imris patent, us 3.781.601 that deals with FL lamp efficiency lighting, he makes more than clear that the higher the pressure of his "conversion tube" the greater the lamp efficiency, despite the fact that the tube itself has great heat losses.

Alas, at the moment i have not the means for conductig high pressure tube experiments.

Baroutologos

[nat1971a]

Just tried a small amount of german silver 10feet in the circuit as the resistor in series with the carbon resistor. It was poorly connected so as to boost the resistance - my way of fast tracking it. I wound it over some washing machine hose which had the grooves in it already. It appears to have changed the circuit a fair bit - the safety overshoot was firing at the same time which was a bit scary. seemed to be even more powerful than before..much more testing required though

interesting enough if i understand this correctly tesla was using a lot of electro positive metals/materials i.e copper zinc nickel. In the colarado notes he was using iodine which i found out today is the 2nd most electro positive material......which matches up nicely with what gray was doing