Gray Tube Replication

[boguslaw]

Hi Everybody,
I noticed one mistake that everybody are doing when trying to build schema with Grays tube. Everybody connecting grid to the inductive load and some to the ground or to the cap and to the ground. The mistake I see is there is spark gap is missing after inductive load.

What do you mean ?

[mlurye]

Hi Everybody,
I noticed one mistake that everybody are doing when trying to build schema with Grays tube. Everybody connecting grid to the inductive load and some to the ground or to the cap and to the ground. The mistake I see is there is spark gap is missing after inductive load.

[Spokane1]

E.V. Gray Information

Mark,
I am always amazed about amount of information you have on Grays motor and it's history.
I don't know may be it would be to much to ask of you, but is it possible to share all information you have on the subject in electronic format? Something like big archive that would be possible to download.

Mike

Dear Mike,

One of these days I shall get around to writing a book that Peter Lindemann has offered to sell on his web site in an E Book format. But that is not going to happen very soon. Now that I have bought a huge 50" vertical mill and the related tooling I can actually build the same components that Marvin Cole was working with. I would rather experiment with hardware than write up chapters of speculations for general reading.

When I do get to it there will be two books. The first one will be a detailed history of everything we know happend in a linear time line from 1955 to 2000. The second book will focus on the technical issues for both the motor and the Electro Static Generators. A serious researcher will need the detailed history in order to sort out the working technology from the bogus stuff that Mr. Gray peddled for so many years. The technical book will make the DaVince Code look like the Boy Scout Handbook.

Almost all the the new GD material is not in electronic format - yet. It really wouldn't matter since so very little of it contains any usable technical information. The recorded phone conversations do show Mr. Hackenburger as a passionate engineer attempting to move things along, but is surrounded by turkeys.

If you send me your address to [email protected] I shall send you a CD with all the speculations, lies, stories, interviews, drawings, photos, wag's, and half baked articles. The story line keeps changing as information dribbles in. I've changed my mind so many times in the past that I don't like to read my old writings because they are so out of date.

If you want to post any of this material on the Internet - have at it. I'm sure others would come to different conclusions with the same data in front of them.

Spokane1

[Aaron]

points

Without the diode slamming shut, I cannot get any output across from the rods to the grid - so no HV switching will take place.

Try 3 nails or something and put the HV and LV point really close to
each other. Take the grid point and have it closer to the LV point
and further from the HV point. That way, the HV is forced to move to
the LV rod first before going to the grid point. If the points are all very
close together, it is almost impossible to not get that to work from my
experience.

[crunner40]

Back to square one..

Hi everybody,

I have been away for a while. Last post was pre-xmas. I finally received more components and have started experimenting again.

I have now built HV probes for my DMM and oscilloscope. (drawings available if anybody needs them..)

I am now trying to get my tube to fire. Again, I am having no luck.

I am using a MOT - output rectified to 3500V at HV rod.

LV either direct to ground via diode and switch, or via LV capacitor supply and switch as suggested by Aaron.

The gap is set to around 1mm, and arc's if the LV diode is bypassed (with a very loud bang and spark).

I CANNOT get the gap to arc with the LV diode in the circuit. the circuit is organised as follows - ground, switch, diode, LV rod.

It seems as if the diodes will not let ANY current through before blocking.

If I hadnt seen the video's, I would never believe that the circuit actually works.

Tomorrow I will try placing the switch between the diode and the LV rod to see if that makes any difference. I will also try again Aarons 2-point circuit.

My motor is ready for final assembly and testing. This is really frustrating.

Without the diode slamming shut, I cannot get any output across from the rods to the grid - so no HV switching will take place.

If anyone has any further suggestions, or working schematics with values - I would be grateful.

Also: I would like to move away from the MOT, and use a 5khz ignition coil supply. I have combed the threads, but cannot locate the schematic.. Would someone please post me a link?

Thanks in advance.

[mlurye]

Mark,
I am always amazed about amount of information you have on Grays motor and it's history.
I don't know may be it would be to much to ask of you, but is it possible to share all information you have on the subject in electronic format? Something like big archive that would be possible to download.

Mike

[Aaron]

how many points?

So there is still an arc process required, but it is no longer contained in an enclosure nor is it surrounded with "grids".

Thanks for the update Mark.

Do you know if this enclosure had just 2 points for a gap or 3 points?

[Spokane1]

New Technical Information from GD

Dear Non-Funded E.V. Gray researchers,

GD, an investor from 1973. Has released 53 pages of dictation taken from his second meeting with Richard Hackenburger in May of 1973. The purpose of this meeting was to establish a regional franchise to build/sell the electrostatic generators.

There are just a few technical clues that might help you with your research efforts.

The original Marvin Cole "Electrostatic Generator" fit in a box 6" x 6" x 6". It did not contain an on board batter charger.

The solid state 2nd generation version of this device (The blue Box) that Mr. Hackenburger built (which I doubt worked nearly as good as Marvin's) was claimed to contain only one custom component - Which was a custom induction transformer that would cost 20% more than a regular transformer. All the other parts were off the shelf. So what did Mr. Hackenburger repalce with his power transistor(s) that Marvin had orginally? Most likly a high speed mechanical switch of some kind.

Mr. Hackenburger claimed that these generators were the foundation of the operation of the motor. We don't know a whole lot about these boxes but it is pretty clear that they did not contain a CSET type component, like what John Bedini reported on. I still believe that the evolution of the CSET was a failed workaround solution to reduce the cost of the original EMA4-E2 motor.

Another new photo shows the last shot of the EMA6 running in about March 1976 - WITH THE CSET's REMOVED. They have been replaced with additional Nylon or Delrin commentator rings. So there is still an arc process required, but it is no longer contained in an enclosure nor is it surrounded with "grids".

In this meeting Mr. Hackenburger claims that they were exploring different winding ratios, commercial core materials, and wire material. However they were not using anything exotic for the core material - like Metglas or stuff like that. I would expect that didn't mess with Ferrites either.

I hope these tidbits help

Spokane1

[Aaron]

• HV moves to LV rod since that is the path of least resistance to ground.
• Diode shuts off at LV side and HV is seeking next least resistance path to ground, which is at the grid. It jumps to grid ionizing the path.
• I have used capacitors for my LV source since I could get no definite results with a battery. The LV cap discharges over ionized gap to the grids.
• Inductor charges.

When the N+ absorbs the electrons from the current impulse, the nitrogen gas becomes non-conductive immediately and breaks the battery connection to the grid shutting it off ultra fast.

[Spokane1]

Dear Aaron,

Keep up that experimental work.

You could very well be right that no specific atmosphere is needed for the fundamental OU process. That would explain the performance of the "Electrostatic Generators" which probably didn't utilize an air blower. However their COP was on the order of 4.0. Perhaps the atmosphere is an enahcement (along with others) that helped with that COP of 274.0 in the dynamic motor design.

I'm not even going to try to figure out a theory model in advance of observing some anomalous physics. My approach is to follow the historical path as far as it can take us then make wild guesses after that. So far I have a lot of work to do in order to even get close to reproducing the experimental setup that Marvin Cole was working with - but I'm getting there.

Machining transformer laminations is a skill that will not be found in text books on metalworking technology. I don't know if Marvin Cole had the cores for his electromagnets custom punched or if he machined them from salvage transformers. I'm going with the latter approach for now.

It is challenging because the geometry of his cores are difficult to follow. Example: the profile of the top pole face is so darn wide and thin. It appears he was using it as an electrostatic shield to keep the internal arc away from the copper windings. Never the less its hard to cut away that much metal and still have any strength left with out the remaining laminations bending and distorting while being machined. If I have examined the photos correct then the final thickness of his top pole face is on the order of 0.100" for the EMA4 series of motors.

The size of the "Minor" electromagnet (aprox. 0.750" wide) doesen't leave much metal for the central core after you take away metal for the magnet wire and only .0612" (1/16") for a coil form insulation. But that is what the photos show (I think) and that is how I'll build it.

The "Major" electromagnet has a lot more meat on it for the central core, but the upper pole face appears to be just as thin. And it has twice the distance to cover. Even so, Using #24 AWG magnet wire there is only enough room for 140 turns (10 layers with 14 turns each) with no insulation inbetween. There won't be much inductance in that coil once I finish it. But then again for high current pulse applications you don't want much inductance anyway.

It will just be interesting to see what the electrical properties are once it gets up to rotation speed.

Keep mixing the HV and the LV and see if you can come up with something. I'll be working on rotating the electromagnets for the next year or so.

Spokane1

[Aaron]

nitrogen in gray tube?

Hi Mark,

In my own mind, the "mixing" whether or not it is a definite sequence
to the HV then that "rf burst" or it happens all together is still how I see
the circuit work and adding nitrogen to the tube doesn't change that
but it might give some interesting properties.

This is what I'm thinking for now...

HV discharge from HV rod to LV rod will ionize the nitrogen and pull
electrons from N2 into the HV rod leaving atomic nitrogen that is positively
charged. This positively charged nitrogen is a very conductive plasma.
So when the HV hits the LV rod and then moves to grid, the nitrogen is
so conductive that the LV side battery can actually conduct a high current
impulse between LV rod and grid and at that very moment, electrons
moving from grid are totally gobbled up by the positively charged nitrogen
and then it turns into n2 with heat production and "afterglow" emissions
that may or may not contribute to the positive charge moving to grid
and towards ground.

I think the nitrogen gobbling up the electrons may be what keeps the
current "cold" as the current is not really moving back to the LV rod but
into the gas.

I've only been able to get the caps to work as LV source and not really
batteries. A few times, I think I had the batts work but for the most part,
I always thought there wasn't enough conductivity with a simple high
voltage spark or even a plasma burst to conduct the battery to the grid.

[Spokane1]

Gases that Gray might have used

Many times I have seen people suggest there is a gas in the Gray Tube
but have never personally seen a valid argument as to why.

I've been aware of allotropic nitrogen for a long time in regards to something
else but it didn't really hit me until I reviewed the info on it and was done
out of learning about the Tutanka water process.

For the first time I think there is a valid argument for a gas in the Gray Tube
and it is nitrogen. Mark's document says Gray was familiar with welding gases,
etc... and didn't use anything "exotic". However, nitrogen is probably one
of the most exotic gases there is.

The discharge of nitrogen can be MORE than what charged it to begin
with. Anyway, just for reference:

Check the first post:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2143-allotropic-nitrogen-active-nitrogen.html

Lord Rayleigh: Active Nitrogen

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...ater-fuel.html

Dear Aaron,

Nitrogen is a common welding gas. It is typicaly mixed with Aragon, CO2 and other inert gases then sold under various trade names.

For all the technical information that E.V. Gray didn't know he did take the time and expense to build his reproduction CSET in 1985 with provisions to have it pressurized.

The exotic gas I was refering to in the article was Sulpherhexifloride SF6. This is an insulating gas use in High Voltage switches that has found wide spread productive used in the power utility industry. According to Mark Gay, E.V. Gray did not use SF6 or anything like it. Mark Gray managed the 1986 CSET construction from scratch by having its components fabricated by machine shops in Boise, ID.

According to Mr. Hackenburger, he thought the OU came from the Oxygen in the air. Consider that the fact that the EMA4-E2 was pressurized to 0.5 lbs with air from an automotive emissions blower (cicra 1969). This is not much pressure but it probably doubles the concentration of O2 atoms availabe to the arc process.

The publically displayed CSET's in the 1976 EMA6 demonstration shows a clear plastic box that is not set up to be pressurized. At 0.5lbs psi the box would have blown apart. So I really doubt any attempt was made at the time to modify the atmosphere in which the fixed arcs were operating. Perhaps this is one reason why the motor only put out 2 HP?

I have no doubt that a modified atmosphere is going to be a requirement for this OU technology. I think, for right now, that pressureized dry air will work until we can get some specific experimental data on the matter. Then maybe we can explore other gases.

Perhaps Mr. Hackenburger was wrong about Oxygen? Maybe the active gas is indeed Nitrogen. If so, then, So much the better because of its availability, low cost and ease of use.

Spokane1

[Aaron]

conductive plasma

And when the nitrogen is really ionized, it is a very conductive plasma
that may at that time conduct the LV from a battery to the grid to be
a real source of LV with the HV. So, a battery can be used instead of
LV cap like I've been using.

[baroutologos]

I am familiar from my chemistry lectures that nitrogen in sparks is agitated. this method is used in industry for the production of ammonia. (NH3)

Somewhere i read about the quenching properties of several gas, researching plasma theories. It is also to note that different gases will behave differently.

Anyway, cannot give it a try

[Aaron]

Active Nitrogen

Many times I have seen people suggest there is a gas in the Gray Tube
but have never personally seen a valid argument as to why.

I've been aware of allotropic nitrogen for a long time in regards to something
else but it didn't really hit me until I reviewed the info on it and was done
out of learning about the Tutanka water process.

For the first time I think there is a valid argument for a gas in the Gray Tube
and it is nitrogen. Mark's document says Gray was familiar with welding gases,
etc... and didn't use anything "exotic". However, nitrogen is probably one
of the most exotic gases there is.

The discharge of nitrogen can be MORE than what charged it to begin
with. Anyway, just for reference:

Check the first post:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2143-allotropic-nitrogen-active-nitrogen.html

Lord Rayleigh: Active Nitrogen

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5247-ionization-water-fuel.html