Roto Verter

[ashtweth]

The essence of RV is not running on minimal current if idle. The essence is to have 2 motors connected, one as motor and the other as generator. A load will be connected to generator (having it's dual windings in parallel, thus low Q, motor part has it's dual windings in series => high Q, big inductivity) and only then the motor part's run cap is TUNED to MINIMAL MOTOR CURRENT WITH DESIRED LOAD.

Now we have a High Q narrowband motor part driving low Q wideband alternator part with desired load. Motor part will be tuned to resonance and this resonance will contribute a lot of mechanical power to the alternator part while consuming minimal power from the power supply. The motor part should have U voltage driving 4*U rated windings, this gives some headroom for resonant rise and resonant amplification effects without the irons saturating.

If run without load with the same run cap, the motor part will not have minimum current because Crun for loaded case is bigger than Crun for idle case. So in idle mode the RV primary's input current will be actually capacitive instead of inductive as with normal motors. But when loaded, the sweet point is attained where the PF=1 and resonant current amplification occurs and motor torque will be much bigger than normally expected with this low input voltage.

Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.. As theory goes a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM

[ashtweth]

>Even without the output generator, for starters, can we accurately say that the input motor will run more efficient when hooked up in a certain way?

Yes, using a Freq drive and tuning the caps under load. Another dood recently used one of the phases and a choke l and charged a battery, Jason might post this soon after a few bugs

>Therefore, by itself, standing alone, the "prime mover" runs extremely efficient and even more efficient beyond what just power factor correction does?

sort of Well, you can still have all the benefits of the Alt reactive power extraction with the PM, you can loop the PM almost the same way too. I am putting new ideas and circuits off the group together in the new version of the Comp ATM. I guess using the Freq drive and Tunning the PM with the cap to the needs of the lad RUN IN RV MODE, is more efficient then a normal electric motor (off the shelf).

[Peter Lindemann]

Most Coherent Explanation I have Heard

Ash,

Thank you very much for this "overview" of the RV operations. This is the best I have seen.

If you don't mind, I would like to ask you some very simple and direct questions about the behavior of this set up, since you already have this mostly explained in readily accepted AC power terminology.

1) You state: "When loading the RV prime mover, we will get closer to resonant state and the current that is consumed from the power supply, WILL NOT increase linearly with loading, but may even DECREASE due to the fact, that the overall system resistance might be several times bigger due to high Q non-linear effect."

My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

2) You also state: "Another aspect with the RV is that the second motor (generator) can be set to semi-resonate at a reasonably hi virtual power. In contrast to the PM which is an example of a parallel resonance tuned to PF=1 under load, the generator exemplifies a series resonance and will have max current & minimal impedance when a cross phase cap is adjusted towards resonance. The virtual power in the alt vs the cap adjusted pf=1 power in the Prime Mover can easily exceed 10:1.."

My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice.

3) And finally, you state: "As theory goes, a percentage of the virtual power can be extracted to a real load with out reflecting back to the PM"

My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

I look forward to learning your answers.

Peter

[esaruoho]

which dollard book?

In the last analysis, Power Factor Correction is a manipulation of the phase relationships between the Voltage and the Current in any AC power system. Solid-state methods to convert ordinary Reactive Power back into Real Power are not a part of "standard practice", but they are a mathematical extension of the same process. All of this was published by Borderland Sciences Research Foundation in the 1980's in books authored by Eric Dollard, using his Four Quadrant Theory of AC power and Versor Algebra.

good day peter. thank you so much for your strength and clarity in this thread. you are encouraging others to be clearer with your attitude, and this is what has been missing for so long.

if its ok, i would like to ask - which books authored by eric dollard would be crucial for further understanding his four quadrant theory of ac power?
thank you very much in advance, and now its back to at the thread and at the good will that is coming out in this thread. almost every single other thread has died elsewhere into skepticism and namecalling, or just not received any attention, but this one is one worth archiving.

thank you everyone!!

[Peter Lindemann]

Borderland Sciences

good day peter. thank you so much for your strength and clarity in this thread. you are encouraging others to be clearer with your attitude, and this is what has been missing for so long.

if its ok, i would like to ask - which books authored by eric dollard would be crucial for further understanding his four quadrant theory of ac power?
thank you very much in advance, and now its back to at the thread and at the good will that is coming out in this thread. almost every single other thread has died elsewhere into skepticism and name calling, or just not received any attention, but this one is one worth archiving.

thank you everyone!!

esaruoho,

No problem. The two main books that cover this material are titled: Symbolic Representation of Alternating Electric Waves and Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave, both by Eric Dollard.

They can be purchased here: Eric Dollard and Tesla

Theoretically, this was worked out over 20 years ago, and more recently has been reduced to practice successfully by Eric Dollard and Jim Murray.

Peter

[esaruoho]

thanks peter!

[theremart]

RE: Inveter mod

Thanks Ash for the info on the inverter.

So if I understand the schematic you sent me this is the complete inverter instruction build. How many of these have been made and tested?

Mart

[Aaron]

stock vs. power factor corrected vs. rotoverter

Thanks Ash, I'm a lot more clear on the whole concept.

Looking at the basic input motor:



It seems pretty straightforward enough in concept.

The overall system connected to a generator:



That also seems straightforward in concept.

The front side motor and the back side generator are electrically isolated from each other. Even if the generator output goes to DC and charges batteries that in turn power an inverter to supply AC to the front side motor, that is isolated as well.

So just looking at the front side motor and totally disregarding the back side generator for now, I think there is a very simple test that should be made. It will show a nice clean comparision.

Take an AC 1HP 3 phase motor for example...

Test 1, leave it totally stock, supply power, and take readings of torque and all power readings at idle and as it is incrementally loaded with more and more load.

Test 2, do simple power factor corrections with caps in series and/or with combination of caps in parallel and/or other variations and do the same test... supply power and take all power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

Test 3, wire in Rotoverter fashion, take same power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

I have no doubt that Test 2 and Test 3 will be superior to the stock Test 1.

For results, it doesn't matter what all the theories and ideas are in regards to the RV concepts and its validity...obviously the motor will run but how efficient compared to standard or non-standard power factor correction...that is what I'd like to see a comparison on.

I would probably have to do the test myself if I really want to know but have these test been done by several experimenters with posted results?

[ashtweth]

Hi Aaron and Peter.

Okay ill get to Peters and come back for Aarons.

>My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

NO not yet peter, i have one for any body who has a Dyno to test.

>My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice

YES

>My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

Peter grab this infoz please , add it to the RV Alt and you have an off the shelf device thats lets say is going to be very interesting.

>My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

Peter you are welcome to ANY thing i have, equipment grants i get form my non profit org for this technology you name it. I have seen a portion of it being extracted with the Neon circuit.
Roto verter Neon Test

You need two of them to be non reflective (in theory) i have also seen the resonance extraction circuit extract some too.

But nothing OU yet, as Both those circuits we used were NOT designed to go there just prove a point that the reactive power" can be tapped. ALLOT of RV engineers are working on the Neon extraction circuit side of things,and also the prime mover loop circuits (ill get all that documentation too you please send me an email so i can add you in the address book peter [email protected] Aaron send me one too il add you as a CC.

We have most of it covered on the Neon just need more testing of TWO of them and data now, so any thing new would be objective, these complex RLC must be simplified and added to the RV Alt, i am sure the maths could be useful to ad to the loop ideas in calculation of impedances etc.

Okay Peter any thing i missed just let me know, i am about to upload another RV manual which isn't on the panacea home page, its where that description came from.

Ash

[Peter Lindemann]

Thanks for the Answers

Hi Aaron and Peter.

Okay ill get to Peters and come back for Aarons.

>My question is this: Under this condition, or any other favorable set of circumstances, have you ever MEASURED a mechanical energy production at the shaft (on a dynamometer) that exceeds the electrical input to the motor (ie. COP>1) ? A simple Yes or No will suffice.

NO not yet peter, i have one for any body who has a Dyno to test.

>My question is this: Do you accept that the phenomena you refer to here as "virtual power" is the same as and identical to what is referred to in standard terminology as "Reactive Power", measured in VARs? Again, a simple Yes or No will suffice

YES

>My comments on this are as follows. I know of a number of researchers who have successfully extracted 95% of this power by using complex LRC networks and, for all intents and purposes, phase shifted the current the rest of the 270 degrees forward to create REAL POWER again, with only nominal loading of the generator.

Peter grab this infoz please , add it to the RV Alt and you have an off the shelf device thats lets say is going to be very interesting.

>My question is this: How much of this power have you seen extracted, and may I review any data that you have documenting this?

Peter you are welcome to ANY thing i have, equipment grants i get form my non profit org for this technology you name it. I have seen a portion of it being extracted with the Neon circuit.
Roto verter Neon Test

You need two of them to be non reflective (in theory) i have also seen the resonance extraction circuit extract some too.

But nothing OU yet, as Both those circuits we used were NOT designed to go there just prove a point that the reactive power" can be tapped. ALLOT of RV engineers are working on the Neon extraction circuit side of things,and also the prime mover loop circuits (ill get all that documentation too you please send me an email so i can add you in the address book peter [email protected] Aaron send me one too il add you as a CC.

We have most of it covered on the Neon just need more testing of TWO of them and data now, so any thing new would be objective, these complex RLC must be simplified and added to the RV Alt, i am sure the maths could be useful to ad to the loop ideas in calculation of impedances etc.

Okay Peter any thing i missed just let me know, i am about to upload another RV manual which isn't on the panacea home page, its where that description came from.

Ash

Ash,

Thanks for the straight answers. Your response clarifies the situation a lot for everybody.

It seems the first thing that needs to happen is to get an accurate dynamometer test on one of your RV motors. If this wiring scheme produces excess mechanical energy, we all need to know. If it doesn't, that is just as important to establish clearly, once and for all. Building a dynamometer is not difficult. The first 10 minutes of my Electric Motor Secrets DVD shows how to build a dynamometer, test a motor, and run all of the calculations.

Next, I highly recommend that the next material that is written about the RV process avoids the use of JARGON. As much as possible, the circuit operations and methods should be described using language whose terms are already well defined in electrical engineering disciplines. This will make it easier for everyone to understand the technology by reading the literature associated with it. An example of this is the use of the term "virtual power measured in watts". This is confusing to people, because the term "virtual power" is not a commonly defined term. Also, the reference to the presents of "watts" suggests that the power is readily available, but in this case, it is not. It is so simple to use the technically correct description "reactive power measured in VARs". Anyone with a background in electrical engineering, knows what this means, and therefore, confusion is completely avoided.

The RV literature is littered with jargon, and this is only one example. Someone (not me) really needs to go back through all of the literature and boil it down to the simplest, accurate explanation of the technology, where every single term is either defined by the author, or is used in accordance with its generally accepted meaning. Circuit descriptions and schematics should use ordinary electrical engineering terminology. Theoretical discussions should be kept separate from the practical discussions of working models. These theoretical discussions can be used to introduce new ideas and concepts when and as they are needed. Every new term should be defined at the time it is introduced.

As for your request for the data on the method to convert reactive power back to real power using Dollard's Four Quadrant Theory methods, they are proprietary, and have not been published to date. So, we are left with the methods the RV group is currently using, which go back to Tesla's "Method of Conversion" circuit processes and the release of Radiant Energy.

It is taking almost 24 hours between the time I write a post at the EVGRAY forum and its appearance on the thread. Apparently, my posts need to be "approved" over there, so, I am going to switch back to posting here. Kone never did call me on the phone, so I am no closer to seeing his unit than before. I am extremely busy, anyway, so for now, its just fine.

More later,

Peter

[ashtweth]

roger that

Hi Peter, thats a brilliant management idea , il have all those sections and headings done /catagory and jarogn emitting work in the new compilations in a month or two. SIMPLIFIED.

Okay looks like one DVD coming our way.

As for EVGRAY dont worry the posts take for ever to get up there, its yahoo (which sucks). Ill get kone to show you some thing and will drop him a mail.

Now, If Eric wants an R and D tool to work with FREE just let me know, if he wants to make the infoz available for RESEARCH, at what ever cost that would be great.If not i can also do begging from him

Seems like we really need a research and development center and grants for this stuff to consolidate individuals like you and eric Aaron etc who have this p[assi0on in their blood. This i am working on with the non profit organization. I hope Eric and your self are in the /R and D mood as we have allot of philanthropic foundations willing to look at our Bob boyce and WFc when ready, this i hope to get grants from and transfer them to open sourced enginners (non profit).

Okay have some new tests and videos (RV) being shot in the next two weeks.
Comps and new simplified stuff is on the way. couldnt find any thing on Eric and the quad stuff, shame the RV can produce all the ractive power you need.

Ash

[ashtweth]

Aaron's post

Thanks Ash, I'm a lot more clear on the whole concept.

Looking at the basic input motor:



It seems pretty straightforward enough in concept.

The overall system connected to a generator:



That also seems straightforward in concept.

The front side motor and the back side generator are electrically isolated from each other. Even if the generator output goes to DC and charges batteries that in turn power an inverter to supply AC to the front side motor, that is isolated as well.

So just looking at the front side motor and totally disregarding the back side generator for now, I think there is a very simple test that should be made. It will show a nice clean comparision.

Take an AC 1HP 3 phase motor for example...

Test 1, leave it totally stock, supply power, and take readings of torque and all power readings at idle and as it is incrementally loaded with more and more load.

Test 2, do simple power factor corrections with caps in series and/or with combination of caps in parallel and/or other variations and do the same test... supply power and take all power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

Test 3, wire in Rotoverter fashion, take same power readings and torque readings at idle and incrementally with more and more load.

I have no doubt that Test 2 and Test 3 will be superior to the stock Test 1.

For results, it doesn't matter what all the theories and ideas are in regards to the RV concepts and its validity...obviously the motor will run but how efficient compared to standard or non-standard power factor correction...that is what I'd like to see a comparison on.

I would probably have to do the test myself if I really want to know but have these test been done by several experimenters with posted results?

Aaron, i can assure you thre RV's power factor is SUPERIOUR, not just power factor correcting but for the power management of tuning the caps to the needs of the load like Tesla states.

We did this test already with a drill , you can see on the video, the new one will have a water pump we converted to RV, what i feel needs to be done is an automatic tunning box which automatically tunes the cap bank to the needs of the load, make one of those commercially and then lets buy out eric and save the world with peter

Okay, also you can run a 1HP in Rv mode, but really with out a Freq drive its not much use for the torque. I know a friend making a 1KW inverter for the RV, this is where H states the figures can go Negative (humor me here for a moment).

Ash

[Aaron]

PF tuned to load

Hi Ash,

With simple power factor correct, it is tuned to the load.

For example, I have an oil forced air system. I want to make the motor turning the squirrel cage blower more efficient. I can figure out what the draw/PF/etc... is while it is running...turning a load...and it won't change (significantly) since it is a very, very steady load. I can PF correct for its draw will be at full load. So when it is up to speed, which probably is less than a second, the capacitance is tuned to the load already.

The motor in the furnace is:
Wagner Induction Motor
1/6 HP
1725 RPM
1 Phase
60 Hz / 115 VAC / 2.8 Amps
This motor is probably from the 50's.

[Peter Lindemann]

Yet to be Proved

Aaron, i can assure you thre RV's power factor is SUPERIOUR, not just power factor correcting but for the power management of tuning the caps to the needs of the load like Tesla states.

We did this test already with a drill , you can see on the video, the new one will have a water pump we converted to RV, what i feel needs to be done is an automatic tunning box which automatically tunes the cap bank to the needs of the load, make one of those commercially and then lets buy out eric and save the world with peter

Okay, also you can run a 1HP in Rv mode, but really with out a Freq drive its not much use for the torque. I know a friend making a 1KW inverter for the RV, this is where H states the figures can go Negative (humor me here for a moment).

Ash

Ash,

You say that "I can assure you (Aaron) that the RV's power factor is SUPERIOR". How can you say this? In the many years that the RV technology has been around, there are still no dynamometer tests showing an increase in motor efficiency. Also, if a single phase induction motor, under load, is Power Factor corrected to PF=1, this is as good as it gets! The RV configuration cannot have better power management than perfect. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have to question your beliefs.

If we look at each part of the RV set-up, and analyze it for efficiency, then this is what I see. The Prime Mover RV motor is, essentially, a 3-phase motor rewired to operate on single phase power while being Power Factor corrected. To lower the total input power, the bearings are re-lubricated with a lighter grease to lower rolling friction. In the absence of dynamometer tests, I do NOT assume these modifications will put the performance of this motor into a COP>1 condition. Normally, a well built 5 HP 3-phase induction motor can operate in the 90%+ efficiency range. Without dynamometer tests, we don't know if they hold this performance when operated at reduced voltages and power levels.

The second RV motor is turned and run as a generator driving into a capacitor. This produces large circulating currents, but because they are out of phase with the voltage produced, this does NOT create any substantial mechanical loading on the generator due to the magnetic field functions. So, losses remain low, consisting of rolling friction, wind drag, hysteresis, etc. Again, efficiencies are assumed to be COP<1 until measured otherwise.

The third part of these systems are the SOLID-STATE circuits that collect some amount of usable energy from the reactive power oscillating in the LC tank circuit consisting of the generator windings and its capacitor load. Since standard theory assumes that NO USEFUL ENERGY can be extracted here, it is reasonable to assume that ANY ENERGY that is gained here is FREE. Since this arrangement of components represents the first of Tesla's published "Method of Conversion" processes from 1893, the conclusion I draw from all of this is that the extraction of Radiant Energy by this back end circuitry is the ONLY POSSIBLE energy gain mechanism present in all of this.

Sorry, Ash, but that is what I see at this point.

The very fact that the RV system uses the same machine as both the motor and the generator parts PROVES that COP>1 operation cannot possibly be present in the motor/generator part. In my DVD Electric Motor Secrets I demonstrate on the bench that the function of Back EMF in this type of machine is the real efficiency killer and that any electrical machine that works equally well as a motor and as a generator is permanently limited to COP<1 operation. Of these facts, I am 100% sure! I have run the tests, and documented it on film.

Power Factor correcting any AC induction motor is worth doing because it SAVES energy, but I do not believe that one type of motor PF corrected is inherently better than another until it is measured on the bench and proved to be so.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Hi all,
Forgive me for maybe a stupid question, but how can an AC induction motor run as a generator? I mean, in order to generate current, you need a moving magnetic field, but I have not seen any magnets on a induction motor rotor - only steel laminations. So how can the rotation of steel laminations create current in stator windings? Or is the magnetic flux provided via the steel shaft form the connected motor as a prime mover?
Thanks,
Jetijs