Multifilar Generator Coil - Lenz delay Experiments

[lotec]

Thanks SkyWatcher for sharing test results. Ive been curious for some time about these types of coils.

Thanks Dragon, that looks like nice work.

Regards

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, made a few more tests today.
Changed the pulley configuration and set it to maximum 3070 rpm.

Each power channel now gives 130 volts AC, coil open circuit.

Then wired both channels in series for 260 volts ac.

Tried a 25 watt 120vac, incandescent bulb and it shows 10 volts ac across the bulb.
Input watts do not change, though hardly any power is being drawn by the bulb.

Think something is wrong with this setup so far.
Can the magnet to core gap be the problem, it is at 1/8" gap at the moment.
On one power channel, the 6 watt led bulb lights up nicely, though with an increase in watts.
Hmm, will have to give this some thought.

Hi lotec, you're welcome.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

Each power channel now gives 130 volts AC, coil open circuit.

Then wired both channels in series for 260 volts ac.

Here is the data for mine. 29awg wire 55pound magnets @ 1/16"
gap against 3/4" X 3/4" core block. Output at 3000 rpm's = per
strand of measurement. 1 Strand 50 votls @ 170 foot.

Each strand 170 feet X 17 strands = 900 volts all open circuit readings.
The wire is rated at 600vac bye bye coil.

Same setup gap at 1/8" output 450vac with barely any speed up under
a loaded condition, Like I said you will learn the importance of
building with high tolerances. The tighter gaps and the stronger
magnets stress out a poorly built platform. Use a shield to hide behind.

Wooden wheels with popped in magnets might come out if gaps are
tightened up so be careful SKY.

[BroMikey]

Tightly wound 50 strand "C" core 79 oz

[SkyWatcher]

Hi bromikey, thanks for the tips.
Wow, nice coil/core you have there, is that 29awg. wire, looks thicker.

Don't think it will be a problem to get 1/16" gap, the rotor runs very true, meaning imperceptible wobble.
Will add some super glue to each rotor magnet just in case and a barrier.
Still seems a little hard to believe, that closing the gap by only a 1/16", will make much difference in amperage output.
I'm now wondering if the extended core on the front was a mistake.
Can always turn the coil around the other way, as the back side is just about flush with the bobbin material.
Think that's the next step, turn the coil/core around, so the rotor magnet flux, can sweep through the coil/core closer.

Then again, your core is miles away from the coil, will have to ponder this.
peace love light

[bistander]

Maximum power transfer

Hi Sky,

Please look into the matter. By increasing RPM you should see an increase in output voltage. Which you did. But instead of following my advice, you wired the 2 channels in series. Yes, that increased OC voltage, but with your load choice, sent you further away from matching impedance. Matched impedance is a big deal in area of AC power. Ever notice how HiFi speakers and amplifiers are matched?

So when you put the 2 channels in series, the coil's resistance went to 62 ohms. From the lamp's rating, load resistance in about 600 ohms. You must not of saw much power as you did not measure it.

The previous test used one coil channel (31 ohm) and a 10 ohm load resistor. You recorded 0.89 VAC, or .79mVA.

If you run 2 channels in parallel (15.5 ohms) it will be pretty close to matching a 10 ohm load. Or if you have 3 of those resistors, configure for 15 ohms. That will show you the maximum power with that configuration. Then cut the air gap in half and really increase power.

BM and Turion like to bad-mouth me. But I've got many years of education and experience with this technology. I know what I'm talking about. Don't believe me? Check me on the maximum power transfer therom. Or run the test I suggest.

Whatever. Thanks for sharing the data.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

Hi bromikey, thanks for the tips.
Wow, nice coil/core you have there, is that 29awg. wire, looks thicker.

BM and Turion like to bad-mouth me.
bi

@ Bi

It isn't bad mouthing, it's called correcting you for your inability to follow
the data presented for this build. The goal is to see any amount of power
that can be generated without dragging down the speed of the rotor.

Since you are not building this design it is a foreign subject matter
when comparing flawed data. We are not after resonance or levitation
we are building coils that are free from lenz law.

@Sky
If you get enough flux from a magnet the length of the core won't
stop you from reaching the null or speed up. Close the gap and add
all of the winding in series. 26 strands will speed up the rotor . From
there you can back off a few strands at a time til you get the null
point. If 26 strands does not do anything much it is because you need
to close the gap. Most small motors are gapped at half a 1/16th or less.

My new coil is 25awg. As you already know the purpose of having single
magnet thru the rotor coming out on each side with a "C" core is to
close the gap without undue stress or to self center the stress on the
magnets or balance out the pull. I would be afraid of your stacked
magnets that I think you said are glued together when closing the gap.

You have a barrier, great.

It is also possible that your drill press motor is just to powerful to
notice small fluctuations. this is why I weaken the power of my AC
dishwasher motor by using a Variac. What I found was that running
my Ac motor at 120vac or 85vac the rpm's were the same with no load
on it. The lower voltage is better for measuring load changes, much more
sensitive. My motor is like yours, it can run at 5 amps. All I needed was
1-2amps.

Do you have a Variac? Or a dimmer switch for a ceiling fan? Or
throw on a dc motor.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, Hi bi, thanks for sharing the information.

Hi bromikey, thanks for the positive and good information.
Yes, the core you have is nice for balancing the rotor.

Don't have any large enough dc motor on hand here, or at any local shop except maybe a different surplus shop that am aware of, to swap out the drill press motor.

Though maybe will pick up a dimmer just to test it, since the test durations are not very long and this motor can be replaced.
So next step, will be closing the gap to at least 1/16", then use dimmer to lower input voltage, to make rotor speed changes more obvious and adjust coil strands in series.
peace love light

[BroMikey]

So next step, will be closing the gap to at least 1/16", then use dimmer to lower input voltage, to make rotor speed changes more obvious and adjust coil strands in series.

You are smart to follow me. I am not sure about all dimmers but some
of them will be able to handle start up and others will pop. Find a 6amp
fan dimmer and I think they go down to 90 volts of pulsed AC from a
triac.

I also looked on ebay for month till I found a good variac for cheap.

I ac motor engineers talk about SLIP and refer to the air gap, bottom
line is a line voltage these motors are fixed for one speed at full load.

The speed don't change but the volt drop will lower the motors ability to
go full load

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Variac-Transformer-Variable-AC-Voltage-Regulator-1000w-Metered-AC-110V-10Amp/202466501095?hash=item2f23f1a1e7:g:ypQAAOSw~QhbvyN K

[Quantum_well]

Some might.

Bound to be criticism but some might find this interesting.

https://youtu.be/xQ8kvHj_JSs

[bistander]

PM alternators

Love it!!!!

Apparently these guys from Missouri Wind and Power did NOT graduate from the Bistander school of generator design. If you listen to their video, they believe that cogging still exists at speed. In fact, they are so concerned about cogging that they designed an entirely NEW generator, with the help of an electrical engineer, just to REDUCE cogging. Not eliminate it, as we have shown you how to do, but just to reduce it. Gee bi, maybe you need to get out there to Missouri and clue these guys in that there is no cogging at speed and they have wasted thousands of dollars on that generator prototype. I’m sure they will appreciate your EXPERT advice. Are you there bi? Speak up now. Show us all how SMRT you are.

And NO, they didn’t design the whole machine just to overcome the fogging on start up. How do I KNOW? Research!

Hi Turion,

I guess you now accept that generator principles and physics used in machines with square or rectangular coils and magnets apply to yours using round poles. Remember this?

http://www.energeticforum.com/316715-post102.html

Here was your reply.

That’s like saying you have measured the performance of a car with square tires and are asking where do ROUND tires fit into the calculations. They don’t, because you have square tires on the car. But you keep on driving the car with square tires. You truly deserve it.

I doubt you took the time to download and read it. However I am interested what your research brought up. Can you provide and link or search phrase? Google was uncooperative. Missouri Jeff had a nice looking stator core. More representative of the machines on which I worked. I don't recall ever doing a round poles machine. Most used around 40 to 50 coils. None had skews. Our markets didn't require cogging mitigation. I think our automotive division did skew the heater blower and wiper motors. Some use it, some don't. All I am saying is that "your magnetic neutralization" is worthless at 2800RPM, 2kw. It is merely a distraction.

Regards,

bi

[BroMikey]

Our markets didn't require cogging middigation.

I think our automotive division did skew the heater blower and wiper motors. Some use it,
some don't. All I am saying is that

"your magnetic neutralization" is worthless at 2800RPM, 2kw. It is merely a distraction.

Regards,

bi

Duh "Our Markets wouldn't let us go outside the box, duh. Get a life
inside the subject matter which takes more brain matter, zero lenz
and zero drag plus zero cogging. What is this?

Mitigation is spelled wrong but it is a big word that you should be
so proud to have in your vocabulary. We can't have Lenz mitigation
my goodness no.

Turion is right again that these guys have figured out a way to stop
the huge cogging at speed as well as on start up. Good idea to use
twice as much copper and wound the right way, HUH? Right?

Poor Bi he tries so hard to chin up to the pro's, makes a good sound.

[dragon]

They all used triangular poles to remove the cogging problem.



Skewing the stator slots was most likely a far less expensive alternative to having custom triangular magnets made.

Back in the 70's we modified the delco 10si by pressing out the shaft, removing the field coil and replacing it with ceramic magnets ( cheap speaker magnets ). It was about the only way to set up a DIY wind gen without having to run power up the pole to drive the field coil.

The purpose of lots of turns of smaller wire is to bring the voltage up so the transmission lines can be small diameter lines run into an MPPT controller then converted to what ever is required by the battery bank or grid tie.

In any case it's pretty much all basic design since the 1800's

[BroMikey]

T

The purpose of lots of turns of smaller wire is to bring the voltage up

The whole thing is bigger and looking at it the windings look thicker
too, plus double the copper. It's not just thinner wire in the same holes,
sorry can't go along with that even if you are a nice guy.

[dragon]

Being a small unit they most likely have to use smaller wire with lots of turns to achieve a reasonable voltage level for transmission as well as making the best of the real estate available for the wire and keep the rpm's within a reasonable range for the blade design. With something that small their probably using blades that run in a TSR range of 7 to 9 which is pretty fast.

I started building 3 phase air core alternators in the late 90's. Much more efficient and very light weight. I used to have custom triangle magnets made, not for the cogging - specifically for the magnetic surface area over the round or rectangular to advantage the real estate for maximum copper. Still have a few hundred of these in a box I use for my own toys... The stators were designed for the lowest possible resistance as well as ultra low rpm operation.

Given this background I can see a few flaws in the solenoid style alternator design, I understand your reasoning for the design but with a few design tweaks you may end up in a much more efficient place.

The low Lenz design that I posted doesn't stop or lower the lenz force ( we need this for a powerful output ). What it does is divert the force away from the rotor - that is - because the magnets are stationary and the stator coils are stationary the Lenz force is diverted into the solid mount of the case. The rotor simply directs the polarity. There is still a slight force working on the rotor but most of the Lenz force is against the magnet and stator. I posted a video of the stator wound with 8 ga wire producing 28 amps in that small fan motor conversion. Even at very low rpm the current output is very high for it's size. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dordyphTKFs

In any case, I know you guys will figure it out... I'm simply a curious observer in your project.