The bistander thread

[bistander]

I cannot add, subtract, multiply or divide today. My wife says I am totally distracted by something. It’s all these numbers in my head from all these different core tests my friend is sending me, but I think we have settled on a size of the material. It doesn’t put out as much voltage at the high RPM, but it does great at the lower RPM and ZERO heat. So I have some experimenting to do as soon as I get my cores done. Now that I know we are going to run the machine at around 3,000 RPM I can start looking for what capacitor gives us neutral coils with all 12 wires in parallel I want to see what voltage I get, and how many amps. Every day is an adventure. I had to make two trips to town today because on the first trip l left both my drink and my wallet lying on the kitchen counter with the list of things I was supposed to pick up in town. And I was thinking about coils all the way there.

12 wires in parallel of size AWG #23 = a single strand of AWG #12 wire in cross sectional area (very closely), or = 2 wires in parallel of size AWG # 14.

Parallel wires used coil winding is commonplace often called 'in-hand' where all wire starts are connected together and all finish ends connected together. In other words, such coils are not the Tesla winding and are equivalent to standard monofilar windings.

The equivalency holds for coils of equal copper mass and effective # of turns (T/c).

Using 22 magnets, new cores, 10 coils, going to 12 strands in parallel, realize that you're changing many design features all at once. Conventional wisdom would establish a known working benchmark and make one change at a time from there. But you ignore convention. So there will be lots of excuses for you to choose from.
bi

ps. All 12 wires in parallel will no doubt generate lower voltage with higher ampacity so the lamp load will be way too small.

[Turion]

I cannot add, subtract, multiply or divide today. My wife says I am totally distracted by something. It’s all these numbers in my head from all these different core tests my friend is sending me, but I think we have settled on a size of the material. It doesn’t put out as much voltage at the high RPM, but it does great at the lower RPM and ZERO heat. So I have some experimenting to do as soon as I get my cores done. Now that I know we are going to run the machine at around 3,000 RPM I can start looking for what capacitor gives us neutral coils with all 12 wires in parallel I want to see what voltage I get, and how many amps. Every day is an adventure. I had to make two trips to town today because on the first trip l left both my drink and my wallet lying on the kitchen counter with the list of things I was supposed to pick up in town. And I was thinking about coils all the way there. I also forgot a check to pay the carpet guys. They hate credit cards!

Carpet will be here in two weeks, and then a couple days more until it is installed. That's the last step in the remodel. I have some details here and there to wrap up during the next two weeks, but then I will be on this stuff full time for the foreseeable future. Right now I am putting in half days there and half days on the generator.

[Quantum_well]

100 watts input and 91 watts output is 91% which is brilliant . He is inputting 50 volts at 2 amps into the motor. That's 100 watts. Now his output is 122 volts at .75 amps since he is only using one coil. That's 91 watts. According to the math in your video, that's 74% efficient. THAT'S nothing special. What's special is, he can add a second coil and double the output while the input remains relatively the same. THAT"S where it gets interesting. And that's the advantage of using Tesla style wound coils and magnetic neutralization. His input will hardly change while his output doubles.

[Quantum_well]

[Turion]

Yeah, I understand about accuracy of measurement, and I realize I'm not all that accurate, but if this ends up being a couple hundred watts input and a couple thousand watts output, the difference ought to be enough to catch somebody's attention. That's only 10 times the input, not 500. I WISH it were 500!

[Quantum_well]

Turion, in the real world of generator testing people are probably looking for something in the region of 1% improvement, what you are showing has nowhere near that accuracy.
Example. 10 lb/in at 1800rpm = .29hp. As easy as that!
I can see for your case where you're looking at 500% times input power accurate testing isn't applicable.

[Turion]

Quantum,
Anything can be faked which is why I have said people need to build this for themselves. If you believe the volt and amp meters, you see what is going to the light in watts and it is a 200 watt bulb, so you can compare output on meters to how bright it is. I also plug a light bulb into a standard extension cord plugged into a wall socket and use an infrared thermometer to measure and compare the heat output of the “wall” bulb to one powered by the generator.

[Turion]

You figure it out

PS. Thanks for pointing that out. I fixed it.

[Quantum_well]

Bystander, all we're interested in is efficiency? Input and output. A light bulb isn't much good, a precision resistor adequately cooled would be much better.
Also see harmonics. Screenshot_20210311-172217_Chrome~2.jpg

[bistander]

Hey Q_w,
The light bulbs are the electric load of the generator. A torque sensor would measure input to the generator.

Often wondered why light bulbs are so often used as loads. At least they don't make audible noise. But still annoying. A nice appropriately sized non-inductive resistor would be preferred.
bi

[bistander]

My buddy is testing a single coil to see what core material or combination of core materials is the best. He is inputting 50 volts at 2 amps into the motor. That's 100 watts. Now his output is 122 volts at .75 amps since he is only using one coil. That's 91 watts. According to the math in your video, that's 74% efficient. THAT'S nothing special. What's special is, he can add a second coil and double the output while the input remains relatively the same. THAT"S where it gets interesting. And that's the advantage of using Tesla style wound coils and magnetic neutralization. His input will hardly change while his output doubles.

Now for his testing, he is not even TRYING to get a "neutral" coil, since a single coil won't affect the amp draw of the motor that much in the grand scheme of things. The drag from adding coils is on a curve and it is the additional coils that absolutely KILL YOU. I have no idea if he is dialing in his magnetic neutralization for each change in core he is experimenting with, but I seriously doubt it. I will have to ask, but at this point it really doesn't matter.

BY the way, if you look at those numbers, 122 volts at .75 amps is 91.5 watts per coil or 183 watts per coil pair which is BELOW the 200 watts per coil pair I have been basing my claims on. But my magnets are closer to the rotor, I may or may not be able to get a bit more from the Tesla coil configuration, which he hasn't adjusted, and probably a bit from magnetic neutralization, so I'm in the ballpark, and I have been basing it on a rotor speed of 2800 RPM and he is testing at 2500, so I think I'll be able to hit my target output. Time will tell. If my coils stay cold like his, I will be EXTREMELY happy with the output he is getting, even though I will be at the low end of the1800- 2000 watts for 400 watt input that I claimed. But that was with the BIG machine. This machine has two less coils, so the planned output was only around 16,000-17,000 watts. Since it is looking like the input watts he is seeing are 100 watts, and will go up a bit as you add coils and try to neutralize that increase, the input will probably be cut in HALF while maintaining 82% of planned (bigger machine) production output. I will take that from a smaller, more compact, far less expensive unit. ma

wow.

16,000-17,000 watts. That's huge compared to where you've been claiming. Upping the ante, or just a mistake?
bi

[Quantum_well]

Thank you Turion.
My coils are made of 12 strands of # 23 each 253 feet long. Four strands are connected in series. My core is soft iron and the mass is that which is required to fill a standard 3 1/2 x 3” bobbin. My rotor has 22 magnets on a 10 1/2” rotor and MUST spin at 1800 RPM to get the effect.

So we have four strands in series which is going to end up as one winding circa one thousand feet. So then you connect three of these thousand feet windings in parallel?
Soft iron seems a strange choice but if that works so be it.
The thing is Turion your generator must have unique aspects or it would just be any axial flux generator.
So what can be unique? The coils and the neutralisation magnets.
li looks like you've got ten coils so that's about fifty pounds of copper,quite a big investment.
One thing puzzles me is that you've obviously spent a lot on light bulbs and whatever which isn't going to prove anything when you could have invested in a rotary torque sensor.
I think people like Heins shy away from measuring torque and doing a proper job is that it's too difficult to fudge.

[altrez]

Altrez, it's going to be tough doing a replication when Turion doesn't seem to know how the coils are wound and connected. The company I was going to use couldn't see why there's a need for twelve strands. They offered four stands of parallel magnet wire which is pre-made and colour coded. Using that special wire allows them to be sure of capacitance and impedance whereas a jumble of wires would most probably be unpredictable.
Another stumbling block is going to be choice of core material. Metglas,ferrite,soft iron or laminated they're all different so who knows?
We need to be 100% certain of what to do because even going small-scale (which is a really good idea) is going to be very expensive if you intend to do a proper job.Hope this helps.

Quantum_well,

Thank you for the input. I am sure I will mess something up but I want to try.

-Altrez

[altrez]

Quantum,

I have also said MANY TIMES that you don't need ANY of those things to be accurate because ANY coil will speed up under load IF the correct capacitor is wired in parallel with the coil. So take ANY coil and ANY rotor with magnets on it at ANY (constant) rpm and have at it. The caps are very small. microfarrad. But once AGAIN, the value is dependent on a BUNCH of different parameters, and I did the experiments with caps YEARS ago. I just know I don't have to fine tune my coils during winding because I can adjust them with capacitors when I am done.

Thank you for that info Dave.

-Altrez

[Turion]

Quantum,
That's BS. I told you exactly how to connect the coils, and exactly how they are wound. I also told you that the connections would have to CHANGE based on RPM, number of magnets on the rotor, core material and a couple of other things.I spent about 20 minutes describing this. I asked for that information from you and was not provided ANY of it.

I have also said MANY TIMES that you don't need ANY of those things to be accurate because ANY coil will speed up under load IF the correct capacitor is wired in parallel with the coil. So take ANY coil and ANY rotor with magnets on it at ANY (constant) rpm and have at it. The caps are very small. microfarrad. But once AGAIN, the value is dependent on a BUNCH of different parameters, and I did the experiments with caps YEARS ago. I just know I don't have to fine tune my coils during winding because I can adjust them with capacitors when I am done.

From post 1450
Quantum,
As I have said many many times, this whole idea of outrunning lenz is based on TWO things. Capacity of the coil and Frequency

How do you control capacity of the coil?
Length of wire
Number of strands in parallel connected in series
OR a capacitor in parallel
Kind of core material
Mass of core material

How do you control frequency?
Number of magnets on the rotor
RPM of the rotor/ motor

Change ONE thing and it affects what you have to do with another

My coils are made of 12 strands of # 23 each 253 feet long. Four strands are connected in series. My core is soft iron and the mass is that which is required to fill a standard 3 1/2 x 3” bobbin. My rotor has 22 magnets on a 10 1/2” rotor and MUST spin at 1800 RPM to get the effect.


That’s why I asked you what size rotor you have and how many magnets. What’s the operating RPM of the motor you will be using. What core material will you be using and what size bobbin? Only THEN can we figure out your “coil”.


From post 1454 Talking about the 12 wire coil. !2 strands wound in parallel.
Quantum, this is something I have talked about before, so I have no problem sharing. When you have windings in parallel and you just connect all the beginnings together and all the ends together, you will need the highest RPM to see the speed up under load or “ neutral reaction. If you are using a motor controller you slowly turn up the voltage with the coil under load and at some speed you will either get the effect, or it is out of your range without adjusting your wires. You will see the motor suddenly speed up, and will have to back it off a bit to get neutral. If the effect was out of your range you have to change your wiring configuration. So now you take a wire and connect the end of it to the beginning of the next wire so you have two in series. You do this six times and are left with six beginnings and six ends. Put all the ends together and all the beginnings together and starting at 0 volts, slowly bring the voltage up and go through the same process. You can try it with 3 in series, 4 in series 6 in series and 12 in series. At some point, you will see the effect.

Remember, coils wound in parallel and connected in series cause the motor to draw more amps in an unloaded condition with the rotor just spinning by them than monofilar coils do. The speed up under load effect simply allows the motor to get back to the amp draw it WOULD have cost if the same amount of wire had been in a single strand. So there IS NO MAGIC here except for ONE THING. If you are at a stable acceptable amp draw with the coils UNLOADED, when you connect them to a load, the amp draw suddenly drops and the RPM goes up.

With my machine I add two unloaded coils and the amp draw goes up and the RPM goes down. I adjust my neutralization magnets and the amp draw goes back down to what it was, and the RPM goes back up. I repeat this process for as many pairs of coils as I have. Some machines have five pair and some have six. Once everything is adjusted THEN I add loads and the amp draw drops and the RPM goes up.

You guys want to be spoon fed everything. All I had was Tesla's patent and curiosity. I made the words above in larger type and in bold, but there were right there. YOU COULD HAVE READ THEM. DON'T replicate this. I don't care. After the conference it is all going to come out anyway.