The bistander thread

[Turion]

bi,
Could it be that you are a spineless coward who is afraid to put his money where his mouth is? Could it be you know you are wrong and so avoid making a bet. Could it be that what I have claimed is actually possible? You’ll never know.

[dragon]

Where are you measuring input and output voltage/current?

The input is C1 to the motor, the output is the power the motor is using to run. AC difference across C2 C3 and the current through the motor coils. The motor requires 1.2 watt to run as it does but only requires 0.6 watts to maintain it. The caps C2-C3 are pre charged to 13 volts, C1 is used as a push to imbalance the pair. C2-C3 never discharge, simply exchange energy back and forth similar to a tank circuit so C1 is the only one discharged. A diode can be used from C1 positive to C2 positive which will charge C2-C3 pretty high which is a huge benefit to the energy being moved back and forth. If you do use the diode you must make sure C2-C3 is sized 5+ times higher than the working voltage from C1.

It is not overunity in any way, shape or form. A Cop factor can be used because we are combining 2 different known energies for the end result. The Cop factor cannot be thought of as a way to "loop" it as some would say.... a cop of 1000, 10,000 or a million isn't unity. The actual efficiency of that motor as I see it would be 50%. It is still "loosing" 0.6 watts from the main supply source while supplying 1.2 watts to the motor.

The cost to build the motor was around 30 bux + time and was meant to be a proof of concept, designed to easily adapt other coils to the base without having to build a new motor from scratch every time I had a new Idea. That motor has been a few dozen different variations. As well other motors have done the same.

There is a lot more to it but for now I'll leave it there ....

[pmgriphone]

Another motor base made for ease of altering it for experimentation --- based on the same circuit.

https://rumble.com/vobo9p-motorgenerator2.html

Basic motor circuit.....

Where are you measuring input and output voltage/current?

[bistander]

... and when you lose, I will gladly donate your losses to charity. ...

You also have a working device. NOT.

That theme has been an off-topic tactic used by you for years now. Ever get the idea that I ignore it and don't care about your insults and name calling. It just reflects on your character and inability to address the technical issues reinforcing my premise that you recognize your failure but are unable to deal with it. Could it be that Matt's description of your condition was factual? Perhaps a medical excuse for disappearing instead of fulfilling an obligation of 2 years for Aaron's conference? Nobody in his right mind would make an agreement with you, certainly not me.
bi

[Turion]

Put your money where your mouth is, and when you lose, I will gladly donate your losses to charity. Coward. But you will never make the bet. That would require a spine.

[dragon]

Dragon, do you have some kind of schematic of how your motor is setup? Motor, coil, caps, input, output, loopback.

Another motor base made for ease of altering it for experimentation --- based on the same circuit.

https://rumble.com/vobo9p-motorgenerator2.html

Basic motor circuit.....

[Turion]

The shims go between a piece of steel and the bearing in the place that matters. The bolts in the four corners will be shimmed as well, but that is a steel shim between two pieces of plastic, and isn’t critical. It should be a fairly simple operation once the shims show up. By next Tuesday I will be ready for all the new coils and can start testing. That’s when I’m going to need the help looping this thing. Got lots of ideas. Have had several suggestions. I’m trying to figure out a way to do it with what I have without spending any more as I have already exhausted my budget for the next two months. It all depends on exactly what the new coils output with this 24 magnet rotor.

[pmgriphone]

Here is a basic motor/gen I was playing with, proof of concept so to speak. It's actually based around what was called a Simplex motor back in 1890 but it has no iron in it - all air core so there are low losses. I show it running with a 0.6 watt input and a 1.2 watt output. It would be interesting to get some feedback of what people see with this motor. Specifically, if its seen as overunity, Cop of 2, or something other.

Dragon, do you have some kind of schematic of how your motor is setup? Motor, coil, caps, input, output, loopback.

[bistander]

bi, Put up or shut up.

Where have I asked for or MADE a single dollar from this?

You just did.
bi

[BroMikey]

Great chronology see-cemt man. You really are a good guy. So honest and ready to help others. yer the best. Your first clunker was enough to show me that had more out by far. Mechanical issues can be a night-mere if you assume construction is easy. Keeping a tolerance from head to toe on a 3" standard motor cage is one thing but some of these gadgets have a 14" span.

|Most people hear that and it goes in one ear and then out the other ear. It doesn't even register until you need to tighten down the box against plastic to steel so vibration can be low.If the steel rings tightened against the plastic is a little to small you will never reach the desired torque.

Trying to shim an ill fitting box later is what you are doing. This could take weeks if not months however you'll get it I am certain. Most can never see the dilemma, let alone fix it. Buying 1 thousandths washers works

12 coil stations needs high accuracy

[Turion]

bi,
Put up or shut up.

[dragon]

Quite interesting Turion, obviously put a lot of time into it. I have no doubt you believe you have a working machine but on my end ( our end including others that may have been following ) there hasn't been anything that shows anything close to what you've claimed or any device showing input/output measurements of any kind. Thus my comment on not seeing anything that would entice me to spend that much time and money to build one. It's been interesting following along over the years and experimenting with various things you've talked about but so far I'd have to say there isn't anything that shows me there is energy in excess of input.

Here is a basic motor/gen I was playing with, proof of concept so to speak. It's actually based around what was called a Simplex motor back in 1890 but it has no iron in it - all air core so there are low losses. I show it running with a 0.6 watt input and a 1.2 watt output. It would be interesting to get some feedback of what people see with this motor. Specifically, if its seen as overunity, Cop of 2, or something other.

[bistander]

Dragon,

My old clunker machine worked, and it still works. There were just many problems with it. And to be VERY CLEAR. I posted many videos of this exact machine in the early days and it did NOT work. I had to learn a lot of things first.The main shaft was made of 5/8 all-thread and filed down on the end to fit in bearings. To connect it to the drive motor the end of the shaft was squared off so that the drive end of a socket would fit on it while the end of the socket that usually goes on a bolt or nut would fit on the nut on the end of the motor shaft. It worked, but the noise is deafening. The adjustment bolts for adjusting the magnetic neutralization have, like 1/8 of an inch play in them, so you could neutralize MOST of the magnetic attraction, but not all of it. At least not all of it ALL THE TIME. It would stay adjusted for a while, but that wouldn't last the way it should. There were days it ran perfectly for an hour or so, and then I would spend two days trying to tune it again. It was just incredibly frustrating. When it works, it ABSOLUTELY does everything I claimed it would do. It LIVED in the shop of my machinist because we had so many problems keeping it running where it was actually "WORKING." AND SEVERAL TIMES I made the 2 1/2 hour trip down there to FILM it running because he said it was working, only to have it NOT work when I got there, and spent the whole day adjusting it and got very little filming done.

So when I had an offer from someone to build a BRAND NEW MACHINE if I would pay for just the materials if he was allowed to make one for himself, I took him up on it. So he set about building the new machine to have in time for the conference while I continued to use the OLD machine just to test coils. I had an idea that would cut the number of required magnets in half and significantly reduce the cost of the new machine, and we decided to try that. The two machines were built and assembled, and the output of the coils with all North magnets on the rotors was far, far less than the exact same coils placed in the coil testing machine, and I realized that all North magnets cannot be used on the rotor and still get the production we have been getting or expect to get. It took me some time to understand what the problem was, because I was still tied up with completion of the remodel on my house, which was my priority. I could see no URGENCY in proving to anybody else something I have watched for years on my own bench.

So another pair of brand NEW machines were built, using the USABLE parts from the last "brand new" machine. I am in the process of assembling mine. My friend, the machinist, already has his together. He has the advantage of having a machine shop to deal with any problems, but is all the way across the US from me. Florida. While I live in California. So I am having to deal with the issues the best I am able in my small town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDDjoOasZyE Very first Build. WHICH DID NOT WORK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri1a4QYd7Yk Earlier version than old clunker...one of MANY, MANY, MANY.....NONE OF WHICH WORKED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUvZjPa08fw Old Clunker running. First version that actually worked.
https://youtu.be/xDY9HvOPLTk 5 Coils on each side of rotor. (5 Coil Machine) All NORTH magnet rotor. DID NOT WORK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XnhiWuc3oE. 6 Coils on each side of rotor (6 Coil Machine)Same as Old Clunker, just a precision built machine


As to why the new machine is not up and running at this moment in time. Parts from the old machine, including the shaft with rotor mount, bearings, frame, motor mount, magnets, etc. were salvaged from the failed 5 coil machine and are being used to put together the new machine. My friend has his up and running as shown in the last video. I do not have the advantage of having a machine shop to address the small issues that need to be resolved to mate old parts to new ones. I have been working on it every day. As of today there are two specific issues.

1. I need to order spacers/shims, that fit on the 1" rotor shaft.

https://youtu.be/FRkjoREoIQs

There are currently two spacers about 2" long, (one on each side of the shaft plates that hold the rotor in place) that set the spacing between the rotor and the bearings. I need additional space or the rotor rubs against the coil holder on one side. For each spacer I place on the rotor shaft that moves the rotor away from the coil holder, it increases the distance between the two coil holders. This means I also need four spacers that go on the four bolts that hold the two coil holder blocks together (held apart by a spacer that would no longer be long enough.) I will start looking for them on line as soon as I post this. It also changes the alignment of the bolt holes that let me bolt the frame to the coil holders as I show in the video.

McMaster-Carr.png
Here Monday.


2. The second thing is having 12 identical coils for the machine. They are all wound, but are having the core material cut, coated, and glued into the cores. I have six, and the last six will be ready on Tuesday.

As to the production of this machine...
The old clunker machine had a 12 magnet rotor and ran on 36 volts @ 12 amps to achieve the required RPM with all 12 coils in place. With the 24 magnet rotor, they output over 2400 watts, but the 24 magnet rotor EXPLODED and I put the machine back together with the old 12 magnet rotor. But those coils got HOT after about 30 minutes and I melted the coating off at LEAST four different sets of coils at different time. The last six months we have been experimenting with coil materials, and we are not done yet. I had a BRAND NEW 24 magnet rotor made for the machine, but I never got around to putting it on the machine. To prove bystander wrong, I would definitely take the time. But he won't make the bet, so there is no need. Without it, the production is not as great.

The NEW machine uses the exact same motor, but has a 24 magnet rotor.

The new coils we have come up with that do NOT get too hot also do NOT produce as much power. As I stated before, the data I was given by my friends, who are testing these coils, was open voltage measurements, not voltage under load. By the time I realized that, he had given me all the good coils he had wound, and all he has in Sacramento are test coils using the NEW core material. Or the old "hot" coils. But each test coil has a different wiring configuration. There is 3000 feet of wire on each coil.


He has a coil with 24 wires. It has eight groups of three wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has six groups of four wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has four groups of six wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has three groups of eight wires that are connected in series.

He has a coil with 12 wires. It has four groups of three wires that are connected in series
He has a coil with 12 wires. It has three groups of four wires that are connected in series.

He has a coil with 6 wires. It has three groups of two wires connected in series.

He has a coil with 3 wires. It just has three strands.

The minimum number of wires coming off any coil is three, which controlled the minimum amp output per coil pair.

So he paired up a 3 wire coil with a 6 wire coil to test. The 6 wire coil was the highest producing coil we tested, by about 30 volts, open voltage, but we made the decision to go with a simple 3 wire coil because we know how to make that work, and Thane Heins has put every configuration of coil connection I showed above in his patent application EXCEPT the simple 3 wire coil. Whether he could win that fight in court, I am skeptical of, since Tesla's original patent discussing how to do this has expired and is now in the public domain.

Anyway, that coil combination used on the OLD machine with 12 magnets on the rotor produced 77 volts at 1.4 amps under load per coil pair. That works out to about 646 watts output for whatever the input on the new machine turns out to be. I can't imagine it is more than the clunker when it is out of adjustment, which is 36 volts at 12 watts or a bit over 5,000 watts input. When ADJUSTED it was 252 watts, and since we need LESS RPM, I am pretty sure we can get the input down lower than that.

I also estimate that the matched coil pair will output more than 77 volts at 1.4 amps. I am fairly sure, just from watching videos of the coil testing that my friend made where he was filming the amp meter, but you see the volt meter drop when the coil is placed under load, that the output of a GOOD coil pair will be around 100 volts at 1.5 amps. which would be around 900 watts with the 12 magnet rotor. What it will be with the 24 magnet rotor I won't know until it is running on the bench in front of me. I hope it will output around 180 watts per pair. But I could always stick in 12 of the "hot coils" and I KNOW what the output will be. I would be happy to waste my time on that if bistander wants to make that bet.

I have included some photos of the issues I have mentioned, including a picture of the new 12 magnet rotor, and another of what it looked like when we harvested the magnets out of it.

The NEW rotor has:
24 3/4 x 3/4 North/South magnets on one side of the rotor as generating magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 North magnets as repulsion magnets
48 5/8 x 1/4 linking magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 North/South magnets on the opposite side of the rotor as generating magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 South magnets as repulsion magnets

So 96 of the 3/4 x 3/4 magnets @ $4.65 each. https://www.magnet4less.com/neodymiu...-earth-magnets
48 of the 3/4x3/4 with hole @ $7.99 each. https://www.magnet4less.com/diametri...le-neo-magnets
6 spools of wire @ $104.00 each. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Bearings
Shaft
Frame
Motor
Motor mount
Coil bobbins
Coil cores
Bolts and nuts
Belts and pulleys
Machine work

I have built 17 versions of this machine since the first build. Not all of them were as expensive as the present model. Do you imagine I would spend this much money on something if I didn't already KNOW it works from testing the last several versions? Do you people actually think I am just here as some scam, some con, some fraud? Where have I asked for or MADE a single dollar from this? I have GIVEN away countless rotors, motors, coils meters, gauges, an oscilloscope, and other parts to people as far away as Africa in an attempt to move this work forward. The MOST I have EVER asked for is that they pay for shipping. In many cases I paid for the shipping myself.

So you can believe whatever bistander babbles, or you can actually build something and test it. If I post videos, he will just say they are fake, or I don't know how to read a meter or some other lame excuse. The only way to know is to build it yourself. If you have a simple rotor turned by a small motor you can set up a couple generator coils that are Lenz neutral. You can add repulsion magnets and see all this for yourself. You don't have to spend the money I have spent. But it's your choice. When this machine is finished, I am DONE with this project. I will have done everything with it I set out to do. I won't be here defending it any longer and bistander will have the last word. Except that I have appointments to show people the finished machine who have already seen old clunker run who have the money to move this forward in a big way, so maybe I will have the last laugh after all. I know what I know, and the truth is on the bench.

Hi Turion,

Thanks for the review.

"truth is on the bench".

Just show it to us.
bi

[Turion]

Dragon,

My old clunker machine worked, and it still works. There were just many problems with it. And to be VERY CLEAR. I posted many videos of this exact machine in the early days and it did NOT work. I had to learn a lot of things first.The main shaft was made of 5/8 all-thread and filed down on the end to fit in bearings. To connect it to the drive motor the end of the shaft was squared off so that the drive end of a socket would fit on it while the end of the socket that usually goes on a bolt or nut would fit on the nut on the end of the motor shaft. It worked, but the noise is deafening. The adjustment bolts for adjusting the magnetic neutralization have, like 1/8 of an inch play in them, so you could neutralize MOST of the magnetic attraction, but not all of it. At least not all of it ALL THE TIME. It would stay adjusted for a while, but that wouldn't last the way it should. There were days it ran perfectly for an hour or so, and then I would spend two days trying to tune it again. It was just incredibly frustrating. When it works, it ABSOLUTELY does everything I claimed it would do. It LIVED in the shop of my machinist because we had so many problems keeping it running where it was actually "WORKING." AND SEVERAL TIMES I made the 2 1/2 hour trip down there to FILM it running because he said it was working, only to have it NOT work when I got there, and spent the whole day adjusting it and got very little filming done.

So when I had an offer from someone to build a BRAND NEW MACHINE if I would pay for just the materials if he was allowed to make one for himself, I took him up on it. So he set about building the new machine to have in time for the conference while I continued to use the OLD machine just to test coils. I had an idea that would cut the number of required magnets in half and significantly reduce the cost of the new machine, and we decided to try that. The two machines were built and assembled, and the output of the coils with all North magnets on the rotors was far, far less than the exact same coils placed in the coil testing machine, and I realized that all North magnets cannot be used on the rotor and still get the production we have been getting or expect to get. It took me some time to understand what the problem was, because I was still tied up with completion of the remodel on my house, which was my priority. I could see no URGENCY in proving to anybody else something I have watched for years on my own bench.

So another pair of brand NEW machines were built, using the USABLE parts from the last "brand new" machine. I am in the process of assembling mine. My friend, the machinist, already has his together. He has the advantage of having a machine shop to deal with any problems, but is all the way across the US from me. Florida. While I live in California. So I am having to deal with the issues the best I am able in my small town.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDDjoOasZyE Very first Build. WHICH DID NOT WORK.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri1a4QYd7Yk Earlier version than old clunker...one of MANY, MANY, MANY.....NONE OF WHICH WORKED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUvZjPa08fw Old Clunker running. First version that actually worked.
https://youtu.be/xDY9HvOPLTk 5 Coils on each side of rotor. (5 Coil Machine) All NORTH magnet rotor. DID NOT WORK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XnhiWuc3oE. 6 Coils on each side of rotor (6 Coil Machine)Same as Old Clunker, just a precision built machine


As to why the new machine is not up and running at this moment in time. Parts from the old machine, including the shaft with rotor mount, bearings, frame, motor mount, magnets, etc. were salvaged from the failed 5 coil machine and are being used to put together the new machine. My friend has his up and running as shown in the last video. I do not have the advantage of having a machine shop to address the small issues that need to be resolved to mate old parts to new ones. I have been working on it every day. As of today there are two specific issues.

1. I need to order spacers/shims, that fit on the 1" rotor shaft.

https://youtu.be/FRkjoREoIQs

There are currently two spacers about 2" long, (one on each side of the shaft plates that hold the rotor in place) that set the spacing between the rotor and the bearings. I need additional space or the rotor rubs against the coil holder on one side. For each spacer I place on the rotor shaft that moves the rotor away from the coil holder, it increases the distance between the two coil holders. This means I also need four spacers that go on the four bolts that hold the two coil holder blocks together (held apart by a spacer that would no longer be long enough.) I will start looking for them on line as soon as I post this. It also changes the alignment of the bolt holes that let me bolt the frame to the coil holders as I show in the video.

McMaster-Carr.png
Here Monday.


2. The second thing is having 12 identical coils for the machine. They are all wound, but are having the core material cut, coated, and glued into the cores. I have six, and the last six will be ready on Tuesday.

As to the production of this machine...
The old clunker machine had a 12 magnet rotor and ran on 36 volts @ 12 amps to achieve the required RPM with all 12 coils in place. With the 24 magnet rotor, they output over 2400 watts, but the 24 magnet rotor EXPLODED and I put the machine back together with the old 12 magnet rotor. But those coils got HOT after about 30 minutes and I melted the coating off at LEAST four different sets of coils at different time. The last six months we have been experimenting with coil materials, and we are not done yet. I had a BRAND NEW 24 magnet rotor made for the machine, but I never got around to putting it on the machine. To prove bystander wrong, I would definitely take the time. But he won't make the bet, so there is no need. Without it, the production is not as great.

The NEW machine uses the exact same motor, but has a 24 magnet rotor.

The new coils we have come up with that do NOT get too hot also do NOT produce as much power. As I stated before, the data I was given by my friends, who are testing these coils, was open voltage measurements, not voltage under load. By the time I realized that, he had given me all the good coils he had wound, and all he has in Sacramento are test coils using the NEW core material. Or the old "hot" coils. But each test coil has a different wiring configuration. There is 3000 feet of wire on each coil.


He has a coil with 24 wires. It has eight groups of three wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has six groups of four wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has four groups of six wires that are connected in series.
He has a coil with 24 wires. It has three groups of eight wires that are connected in series.

He has a coil with 12 wires. It has four groups of three wires that are connected in series
He has a coil with 12 wires. It has three groups of four wires that are connected in series.

He has a coil with 6 wires. It has three groups of two wires connected in series.

He has a coil with 3 wires. It just has three strands.

The minimum number of wires coming off any coil is three, which controlled the minimum amp output per coil pair.

So he paired up a 3 wire coil with a 6 wire coil to test. The 6 wire coil was the highest producing coil we tested, by about 30 volts, open voltage, but we made the decision to go with a simple 3 wire coil because we know how to make that work, and Thane Heins has put every configuration of coil connection I showed above in his patent application EXCEPT the simple 3 wire coil. Whether he could win that fight in court, I am skeptical of, since Tesla's original patent discussing how to do this has expired and is now in the public domain.

Anyway, that coil combination used on the OLD machine with 12 magnets on the rotor produced 77 volts at 1.4 amps under load per coil pair. That works out to about 646 watts output for whatever the input on the new machine turns out to be. I can't imagine it is more than the clunker when it is out of adjustment, which is 36 volts at 12 watts or a bit over 5,000 watts input. When ADJUSTED it was 252 watts, and since we need LESS RPM, I am pretty sure we can get the input down lower than that.

I also estimate that the matched coil pair will output more than 77 volts at 1.4 amps. I am fairly sure, just from watching videos of the coil testing that my friend made where he was filming the amp meter, but you see the volt meter drop when the coil is placed under load, that the output of a GOOD coil pair will be around 100 volts at 1.5 amps. which would be around 900 watts with the 12 magnet rotor. What it will be with the 24 magnet rotor I won't know until it is running on the bench in front of me. I hope it will output around 180 watts per pair. But I could always stick in 12 of the "hot coils" and I KNOW what the output will be. I would be happy to waste my time on that if bistander wants to make that bet.

I have included some photos of the issues I have mentioned, including a picture of the new 12 magnet rotor, and another of what it looked like when we harvested the magnets out of it.

The NEW rotor has:
24 3/4 x 3/4 North/South magnets on one side of the rotor as generating magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 North magnets as repulsion magnets
48 5/8 x 1/4 linking magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 North/South magnets on the opposite side of the rotor as generating magnets
24 3/4 x 3/4 South magnets as repulsion magnets

So 96 of the 3/4 x 3/4 magnets @ $4.65 each. https://www.magnet4less.com/neodymiu...-earth-magnets
48 of the 3/4x3/4 with hole @ $7.99 each. https://www.magnet4less.com/diametri...le-neo-magnets
6 spools of wire @ $104.00 each. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Bearings
Shaft
Frame
Motor
Motor mount
Coil bobbins
Coil cores
Bolts and nuts
Belts and pulleys
Machine work

I have built 17 versions of this machine since the first build. Not all of them were as expensive as the present model. Do you imagine I would spend this much money on something if I didn't already KNOW it works from testing the last several versions? Do you people actually think I am just here as some scam, some con, some fraud? Where have I asked for or MADE a single dollar from this? I have GIVEN away countless rotors, motors, coils meters, gauges, an oscilloscope, and other parts to people as far away as Africa in an attempt to move this work forward. The MOST I have EVER asked for is that they pay for shipping. In many cases I paid for the shipping myself.

So you can believe whatever bistander babbles, or you can actually build something and test it. If I post videos, he will just say they are fake, or I don't know how to read a meter or some other lame excuse. The only way to know is to build it yourself. If you have a simple rotor turned by a small motor you can set up a couple generator coils that are Lenz neutral. You can add repulsion magnets and see all this for yourself. You don't have to spend the money I have spent. But it's your choice. When this machine is finished, I am DONE with this project. I will have done everything with it I set out to do. I won't be here defending it any longer and bistander will have the last word. Except that I have appointments to show people the finished machine who have already seen old clunker run who have the money to move this forward in a big way, so maybe I will have the last laugh after all. I know what I know, and the truth is on the bench.

[dragon]

Not personally, lots of friends though... I refuse to participate or comply in any and all of their BS... especially when there is an alternative.