Your Basic Coil

[Turion]

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No, these particular coils will not speed up the rotor when shorted or loaded. Which is a shame, since I wound them for this generator specifically, but with steel cores. With steel cores they DID speed up under load.I DO have other air core coils that WILL speed up under load, but they are the WRONG size to fit the generator, so I will be winding new ones over thinnest few days for the generator to see if I can't get it to speed up under load again. Lots to do!

[Matthew Jones]

Those are high impedance coils with no cores. They won't accelerate.

Matt

[Mario]

Dave, but do you get acceleration, or at least no deceleration if you short your AIR coils?

Mario

[Turion]

The coils on my generator with iron cores sped up under load at 1850+ rpm.
With air cores they do NOT. So I have some more work and calculations to do.
That information alone should give you a whole bunch of clues if you have been following along.

Two Coil test part 1 - YouTube

Two Coil Test part 2 - YouTube

Two Coil Test part 3 - YouTube

But I am at least in a position to test now and put out decent data.

Dave

[Matthew Jones]

Matt, I know what happens when you drop a magnet down a pipe, or run one across a copper surface. But in an open coil where no current is flowing I don't see how Lenz can work against the magnet? Or maybe you mean a small amount, I've never noticed it. I will check rotor with no coil versus rotor with open coil.

Mario

It would be a smaller effect than the copper pipe but still when your looking at the scale of Dave's gen its worth a couple of amps. Thats what's happening with the amp draw, and anyone will see if they track it all the way through.

Matt

[Mario]

Mario,
THAT is the exact subject of the two videos I just posted. A comparison of the rotor turning with 12 coils in place, and the second video with those 12 coils removed. Comparison of the amp draw of the motor and voltage input and rpm in both cases. Pay attention Mister! There will be a quiz later! (That's what I used to tell my students when I was teaching)

I did pay attention and is why I wrote post nr.34

Oh, and about the resonance idea you posted earlier.

It's more based on experimentation than an idea.

I started with 2400 feet of #23 on my coil, which is 3 strands of 800 feet. I ran it with 3 strands in parallel and with all three strands in series, and it made NO difference in RPM's when I had no load on the coils.

that's great and clears it up! No resonance at work.

I still got the SAME difference in RPM's between coil in place and no coil. I came to the conclusion it had NOTHING to do with resonance and everything to do with moving the magnet past the copper wire. I could see it with 12 coils much easier than with the little two coil rig I started with. I could be wrong though. I am keeping a list of all the times I am wrong, and it is starting to fill a good sized book.

Ha ha, well it's from our errors we all learn right?

So many coils put close to the turning rotors create air friction, it still may make a little difference.

Mario

[Turion]

Videos

Mario,
THAT is the exact subject of the two videos I just posted. A comparison of the rotor turning with 12 coils in place, and the second video with those 12 coils removed. Comparison of the amp draw of the motor and voltage input and rpm in both cases. Pay attention Mister! There will be a quiz later! (That's what I used to tell my students when I was teaching)

Note: Just kidding, so please do not be offended!!!!!!
I know it's hard to assess "tone" when all you see is the written word.

Oh, and about the resonance idea you posted earlier. I started with 2400 feet of #23 on my coil, which is 3 strands of 800 feet. I ran it with 3 strands in parallel and with all three strands in series, and it made NO difference in RPM's when I had no load on the coils. I still got the SAME difference in RPM's between coil in place and no coil. I came to the conclusion it had NOTHING to do with resonance and everything to do with moving the magnet past the copper wire. I could see it with 12 coils much easier than with the little two coil rig I started with. I could be wrong though. I am keeping a list of all the times I am wrong, and it is starting to fill a good sized book.
Dave

[Mario]

You never drop a magnet down a copper pipe? You can't pull current from it but it opposes the magnet none the less.
Run a magnet across a copper surface you get drag. The end of the coil is just a piece of copper.
Now I am not trying to ridicule so please don't psycho analyze me and don't take it personal for saying....

This is Lenz law 101, turning it into anything else or trying to forget about it, is just not appropriate. It is a fact, period. No if, and, or buts.

And when you have 6 huge magnets and for the most part an 11 inch diameter plate of copper (Spun copper) your going to see a drag, period.... No if, ands, or buts. Again.

And if your not your magnets are a mile away from the end of the coil and your not trying to produce power.

You cannot escape this aspect of Lenz, More copper, More magnet, more drag.

Matt

Matt, I know what happens when you drop a magnet down a pipe, or run one across a copper surface. But in an open coil where no current is flowing I don't see how Lenz can work against the magnet? Or maybe you mean a small amount, I've never noticed it. I will check rotor with no coil versus rotor with open coil.

Mario

[Turion]

This thread

This is why I started this thread in the first place...so we can share ideas about the construction of coils.

It is obvious that an air core coil is the BEST when it comes to least drag on the rotor magnets as they go by, but they also produce the least power because there is no core to collect and hold the magnet flux from the passing magnets. But what can be done to fix this. Matt and I know from experimenting that BB shot mixed with acrylic to harden are better than welding rod cores for producing output and cost the same in amp draw.

I have some paramagnetic material Bob French gave me that is better than welding rods also. But I wanted even less drag than the paramagnetic material so I went with air cores.

Inventors in the past have used football shaped cores so there is less copper near the magnets and more in the middle of the coil. I haven't tried that yet.

How about iron wire instead of copper wire? I have some on order to try. That is my purpose here. To experiment and share some of the results. Maybe I can keep some of the rest of you from wasting your time. And maybe some of you will continue to contribute.

Dave

[Matthew Jones]

You never drop a magnet down a copper pipe? You can't pull current from it but it opposes the magnet none the less.
Run a magnet across a copper surface you get drag. The end of the coil is just a piece of copper.
Now I am not trying to ridicule so please don't psycho analyze me and don't take it personal for saying....

This is Lenz law 101, turning it into anything else or trying to forget about it, is just not appropriate. It is a fact, period. No if, and, or buts.

And when you have 6 huge magnets and for the most part an 11 inch diameter plate of copper (Spun copper) your going to see a drag, period.... No if, ands, or buts. Again.

And if your not your magnets are a mile away from the end of the coil and your not trying to produce power.

You cannot escape this aspect of Lenz, More copper, More magnet, more drag.

Matt

[Mario]

Hi Matt,

"No matter what you do when you run a magnet across copper there will be a hit. You cannot escape that aspect of lenz law."

I never noticed that. Would have to check that accurately. Normally, no current no Lenz, no slowing down.

You said you've calculated the resonates of your coils. I'm sure you've considered this, but a given length of single wire length in a coil has a higher resonant point than a coil made with the same total length but series multifilar wires, since its capacitance is higher.

Mario

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Dave,

This test was with air coils, so the only things that can slow down the rotors with all the AIR coils in place are two:

- A bit of added air friction, but this shouldn't account for the difference of 100 RPM.

- You start getting into the beginning of the resonant zone of your coils, (not by much since at full resonance your rotors would come to an almost dead stop). This is something that can confuse people. It's not a big issue once the load is connected, as its low impedance/resistance brings the coil's voltage to a much lower value than open coil voltage, and won't allow for resonant rise or buildup, which is what leads to a loading condition even when open. But it does confuse when people compare the baseline with adding coils or when loading them, since even when unloaded, the coil resonance (in your case just beginning) will slow down the rotor.

This is something you can test easily if your coils are multifilar and have windings in series, just disconnect the winding connection that sits at about half of your total wire length and test again, (or all connections). This will set the resonant point of your coil to a much higher point, and you shouldn't see slowing down anymore.

Mario

The thing is he has already loaded the coils before with light bulbs and he gained RPMS. I have done the math on those coils and to achieve any resonants the rpms would have to go pretty high. I looked at that as a means of getting the iron core versions to loosen up.
He's breaking the machine down now so that he can reconfigure the coils. The slowing down is, between having a coil and not having a coil is due to the copper. No matter what you do when you run a magnet across copper there will be a hit. You cannot escape that aspect of lenz law.

For him to use any other shape of coil (IE Footballs) there has to be a core material in place. So we have isolated several core material to test.

The iron cores were removed because the amount of strain it was putting on the motor at start up. Once the thing was spinning at 1850 rpms all loads put on the coil accelerated the motor. This held the potential of the output power up while delivering stable current. Only resistive loads were tested.

We are looking for that same performance without the attraction of the iron. Many materials have the ability to move the flux through the core with out having to have a lot mass to lock the magnets up at zero rpms.

Configuring these is simple and can be done with or without a core material, it almost always requires speeds above 1850 rpms.
The trick is find a coil that will accelerate under short, the remove enough wire to make it short out and not accelerate but slowdown either, and at that point you can run resistive loads. Its simple, no complex operations or theories. And as rule of thumb to get started the amount or resistance in the coil goes up with the amount of mass of permeable material you put in the core. At least that is what we have seen. Simple...

Cheers
Matt

[Mario]

Shylo, with resonance I mean the true resonance of a coil. If you drive a coil that starts approaching the resonant peak it will load down the prime mover, even if the coil is unloaded.

Mario

[shylo]

Nice

Hi Dave , I would guess you could get the amps in to at least half that value with the machine balanced. Have you tried and if so how do you do it? I am running a big magnet rotor attached to my motor /generator and am having balancing issues also. With a little tweaking that will be a great set-up, nice work.
Hi Mario, This resonance has me confused do you mean ,the speed the magnets enter the coil and leave which causes a rise and fall of potential is coming close to the same speed as "what" the motor driving it or the gen coils ability of reaching its' full potential?
Also I've been doing runs with my set-up and find that when I load my generator coils Not losing rpm and amps in doesn't change either. As long as the load isn't too big for the gen. I'll get some #'s today and let you all know.
Thanks artv

[Mario]

Hi Dave,

This test was with air coils, so the only things that can slow down the rotors with all the AIR coils in place are two:

- A bit of added air friction, but this shouldn't account for the difference of 100 RPM.

- You start getting into the beginning of the resonant zone of your coils, (not by much since at full resonance your rotors would come to an almost dead stop). This is something that can confuse people. It's not a big issue once the load is connected, as its low impedance/resistance brings the coil's voltage to a much lower value than open coil voltage, and won't allow for resonant rise or buildup, which is what leads to a loading condition even when open. But it does confuse when people compare the baseline with adding coils or when loading them, since even when unloaded, the coil resonance (in your case just beginning) will slow down the rotor.

This is something you can test easily if your coils are multifilar and have windings in series, just disconnect the winding connection that sits at about half of your total wire length and test again, (or all connections). This will set the resonant point of your coil to a much higher point, and you shouldn't see slowing down anymore.

Mario