Regenerative Acceleration in Use with Rotary Charging Systems

[Matthew Jones]

What puzzles me is that I have always found that when I short the armature or a phase (coil(s)) on a permanent magnet machine (motor or generator), it comes to a screeching stop. And is impossible to rotate by hand at more than an RPM or two. So what gives with these demonstrations of "regenerative acceleration"? Two things come to mind. One is the coil impedance is ridiculously high. And two, that the magnetic circuit is ridiculously loose or leaky. In other words, the machine is useless as far as doing any real work. It is just an academic exercise showing an anomaly caused by armature reaction.

It doesn't have to be leaky for sure, high impedance is good way to go about it but primarily used to counteract the attraction caused in a normal gen coil. Its a pretty great thing to be able to load a gen up and it doesn't slow down or require more power to turn then when the generator was open. I have never understood the delusion that says thats not useful. And its really simple to implement.

Matt

[bistander]

Dynamic braking

What puzzles me is that I have always found that when I short the armature or a phase (coil(s)) on a permanent magnet machine (motor or generator), it comes to a screeching stop. And is impossible to rotate by hand at more than an RPM or two. So what gives with these demonstrations of "regenerative acceleration"? Two things come to mind. One is the coil impedance is ridiculously high. And two, that the magnetic circuit is ridiculously loose or leaky. In other words, the machine is useless as far as doing any real work. It is just an academic exercise showing an anomaly caused by armature reaction.

[Mario]

Well Turion, I guess baselines can be useful for seeing differences that
changes have made to a setup and so forth, but the overall efficiency is
always the output divided by the input or the total input compared to the
utilized output.

A "baseline" has no place in an efficiency determination.

Honestly we could use baselines to show improvements with anything.

I can show and have shown speed up under short circuit or heavy loads with
various setups, therefore it is nothing special and has a perfectly valid
explanation in conventional "electro-magnetics".

It's a very simple setup to test.


Set up a rotor with magnets spun by a Prime mover of some description.

Determine the frequency of the magnets rotation at a prime mover speed
about 1/2 to 3/4 the maximum speed under load.

Calculate or determine by trial and error the inductance needed to obtain a
harmonic of or a resonant frequency the same as the magnet rotation speed.

Set up a generator coil with a bit less than the inductance determined in the
previous step so that when a capacitor of 1 to a few uF is added across the
gen coil resonance or a harmonic is approached before the prime mover is at
full power.

Basically if you scope the gen coil and run the setup at say 1/2 of the
maximum speed it is easy to find a capacitor size that causes the voltage
wave form to increase dramatically when the cap is connected, or to fine
tune the speed to where the effect is got.

The currents caused to flow in the coil and cap should make the prime mover
slow or use more input power.

Short or load the gen coil to cause the rotor to speed up again.

Trial and error can get the speed just right so that the effect is best seen or
not as I did in the first video I posted.

I think I used in one case about 7 mH and about 14 uF or something to get a
few hundred Hz.

In no case does the speed up under short circuit or load cause the rotor to
rotate faster than without the coils there.

And in no case does the effect cause the output to become more than the
input. Which is the important measure.

Obviously the thing to be learned here by us is that generator coils wound to
have a lot of capacitance will likely be very inefficient due to the effect in
question.

When a generator coil exhibits the acceleration under load effect at resonance the output
of that coil is limited to much less than if the coil was used at a lesser
frequency due to frequency induced impedance.

Basically the effect is inefficient.

..

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

this link

[mbrownn]

[BroMikey]

Well Turion

Basically the effect is inefficient.

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

Thane has only shown one or two coils operating at a time.

The main thing we all need to take note of is the fact that

the business man standing there in Thane's demo represents

a company that spends X amount on electric daily.


Thane showed the man how he could go from conventional

mode to the RegenX MODE and back again. Many have contested

that under a load THANES effect goes away. This has been proven

not to be the case.


Even under a load the rotors will increase energy.

Now let's look at the cost saving. Let's say the man standing

at the demo spent $100,000 per month to run a machine or

machines. With Thane's setup the man would get $30,000 back

and he could buy a lot of THANE hardware



What I don't understand is why people don't realize that if 30

percent can be saved by recycling, something that the universities

say is a taboo discussion, why can't they figure out that 60 percent

is possible?????? Why not 160 percent???????????????



Anyway just a thought for those who think.

[Turion]

Misunderstanding

I never said Thaine's setup was OU. I don't have much faith that ANY device can deliver COP>1 until I see it working on my bench. I have never seen a single coil device capable of delivering COP>1, but then I haven't seen everything out there either. Perhaps it IS possible. But I'll believe it when I can put my scope on it.

Dave

[Farmhand]

Well Turion, I guess baselines can be useful for seeing differences that
changes have made to a setup and so forth, but the overall efficiency is
always the output divided by the input or the total input compared to the
utilized output.

A "baseline" has no place in an efficiency determination.

Honestly we could use baselines to show improvements with anything.

I can show and have shown speed up under short circuit or heavy loads with
various setups, therefore it is nothing special and has a perfectly valid
explanation in conventional "electro-magnetics".

It's a very simple setup to test.

Set up a rotor with magnets spun by a Prime mover of some description.

Determine the frequency of the magnets rotation at a prime mover speed
about 1/2 to 3/4 the maximum speed under load.

Calculate or determine by trial and error the inductance needed to obtain a
harmonic of or a resonant frequency the same as the magnet rotation speed.

Set up a generator coil with a bit less than the inductance determined in the
previous step so that when a capacitor of 1 to a few uF is added across the
gen coil resonance or a harmonic is approached before the prime mover is at
full power.

Basically if you scope the gen coil and run the setup at say 1/2 of the
maximum speed it is easy to find a capacitor size that causes the voltage
wave form to increase dramatically when the cap is connected, or to fine
tune the speed to where the effect is got.

The currents caused to flow in the coil and cap should make the prime mover
slow or use more input power.

Short or load the gen coil to cause the rotor to speed up again.

Trial and error can get the speed just right so that the effect is best seen or
not as I did in the first video I posted.

I think I used in one case about 7 mH and about 14 uF or something to get a
few hundred Hz.

In no case does the speed up under short circuit or load cause the rotor to
rotate faster than without the coils there.

And in no case does the effect cause the output to become more than the
input. Which is the important measure.

Obviously the thing to be learned here by us is that generator coils wound to
have a lot of capacitance will likely be very inefficient due to the effect in
question.

When a generator coil exhibits the acceleration under load effect at resonance the output
of that coil is limited to much less than if the coil was used at a lesser
frequency due to frequency induced impedance.

Basically the effect is inefficient.

..

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

[vidbid]

Coil Shorting Demo with Diode

Just reporting on a video...



Link to explanation: http://www.energeticforum.com/279209-post59.html

[citfta]

Just reporting on a Video.



Electric OU: Coil Shorting Shunt Motor 2: Effect of Diode - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk

Okay, people, what is your explanation for this effect?

DasVIDaniya!

Bistander is totally correct in his answers about the two videos. If you want to understand better what is going on in the videos you can read some posts I made a while back about how shunt wound motors work. You can start with this post: http://www.energeticforum.com/275402-post456.html

I think there are maybe a couple of more posts after that which answer some questions from other posters and further explain how these type motors work.

Carroll

[vidbid]

The V1



Nothing claimed.

DasVIDaniya!

[bistander]

armature field

Just reporting on a Video.



Electric OU: Coil Shorting Shunt Motor 2: Effect of Diode - YouTube

Okay, people, what is your explanation for this effect?

Slightly more interesting than the first one. Here the armature in the unexcited stator field does produce a flux with the armature current. When stationary there is a net zero flux through the stator and therefore no torque hence no rotation. When twisted by hand the armature flux becomes distorted in the field (stator) structure and establishes a flux field to interact with the armature current and produces torque, hence rotation is sustained. This armature induced flux is weak compared to the main field flux one would have with an excited field and so the torque in this mode is barely enough to maintain rotation at no load.

The effects from shorting the field and doing so with a diode, I suspect, is aiding or hindering this weak armature field by establishing a current in the field coils due to a transformer effect. The diode rectifies the induced AC in the coil. One polarity of armature excitation, that aids or increases flux and produces more torque causing acceleration and reduced current (higher BEMF). The other polarity, it reduces the flux, torque is lost, nearly stalls and current increases.

Putting a scope on it would verify that.

bi

[Turion]

Farmhand,
When I began looking into air core coils, I felt it was important to establish a baseline. Otherwise, how could I know if there was anything to your statement that the coil as a capacitor was slowing down the motor/rotor, and what we were seeing when the coil was shorted out was just the motor speeding back up to where it should have been in the first place? We need to KNOW what the performance is with no coil in sight, do we not? And isn't that the essence of a "baseline"?

So I spun up a rotor connected to my motor and established a baseline for volts, amps, and RPM's using a 60 volt power supply. NO coil involved. Then I introduced an air core coil to the rotor. There was no change to the amp draw, voltage, or speed that I could detect with my meters. Then I connected a load to the coil. In the case of the three coils I am presently working with, there was a slight increase in the RPM's of the rotor (only about 12 RPM on the specific coil I am thinking of....don't recall the others, but they ALL sped up), and a slight decrease in the amp draw. With other coils I tested there was NO speed up under load, but neither was there a slow down when the coil was first introduced to the rotor. I would not say this is conclusive proof, but in my mind it is a basis for further exploration. That is why I am spending the money to construct a precision coil testing setup so that I can use scopes with the proper connectors to measure the coils as accurately as possible. I want to take out as much of the guesswork from this as possible. Without proper testing, all we are really DOING is guessing.

With coils that HAVE cores, you should test without the coil present because OBVIOUSLY the magnets on the rotor are going to be attracted to the core of the coil, so you need to see your data BEFORE a specific coil is introduced, otherwise you do not know how much a particular kind of core slowed the rotor down or increased the amp draw on the motor, so IF it speeds up, you have no data to analyze the relationship between how much it slowed the motor down and how much it sped up under load. Baselines are NEVER a bad idea. They are the basis for scientific testing of all kinds.

BUT, I do agree it boils down to input vs output. It doesn't matter whether the motor speeds up or slows down. What matters is how much power did it consume to run and how much power did it generate. Can you get the output of five or six times the input you need be able to loop the system.

Dave

[vidbid]

Coil Shorting : Effect of Diode

Just reporting on a Video.



Electric OU: Coil Shorting Shunt Motor 2: Effect of Diode - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk

Okay, people, what is your explanation for this effect?

DasVIDaniya!

[vidbid]

LOL Thats your crowd vidbid. Good luck with your success..LOL

Matt

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBkuNpgACH0[/VIDEO]

Ha Ha Ha

[Matthew Jones]

LOL Thats your crowd vidbid. Good luck with your success..LOL

Matt