Regenerative Acceleration in Use with Rotary Charging Systems

[citfta]

Just reporting on a Video.



Electric OU: Coil Shorting Shunt Motor 2: Effect of Diode - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkV1RMtlJnk

Okay, people, what is your explanation for this effect?

DasVIDaniya!

Bistander is totally correct in his answers about the two videos. If you want to understand better what is going on in the videos you can read some posts I made a while back about how shunt wound motors work. You can start with this post: http://www.energeticforum.com/275402-post456.html

I think there are maybe a couple of more posts after that which answer some questions from other posters and further explain how these type motors work.

Carroll

[vidbid]

Coil Shorting Demo with Diode

Just reporting on a video...



Link to explanation: http://www.energeticforum.com/279209-post59.html

[Farmhand]

Well Turion, I guess baselines can be useful for seeing differences that
changes have made to a setup and so forth, but the overall efficiency is
always the output divided by the input or the total input compared to the
utilized output.

A "baseline" has no place in an efficiency determination.

Honestly we could use baselines to show improvements with anything.

I can show and have shown speed up under short circuit or heavy loads with
various setups, therefore it is nothing special and has a perfectly valid
explanation in conventional "electro-magnetics".

It's a very simple setup to test.

Set up a rotor with magnets spun by a Prime mover of some description.

Determine the frequency of the magnets rotation at a prime mover speed
about 1/2 to 3/4 the maximum speed under load.

Calculate or determine by trial and error the inductance needed to obtain a
harmonic of or a resonant frequency the same as the magnet rotation speed.

Set up a generator coil with a bit less than the inductance determined in the
previous step so that when a capacitor of 1 to a few uF is added across the
gen coil resonance or a harmonic is approached before the prime mover is at
full power.

Basically if you scope the gen coil and run the setup at say 1/2 of the
maximum speed it is easy to find a capacitor size that causes the voltage
wave form to increase dramatically when the cap is connected, or to fine
tune the speed to where the effect is got.

The currents caused to flow in the coil and cap should make the prime mover
slow or use more input power.

Short or load the gen coil to cause the rotor to speed up again.

Trial and error can get the speed just right so that the effect is best seen or
not as I did in the first video I posted.

I think I used in one case about 7 mH and about 14 uF or something to get a
few hundred Hz.

In no case does the speed up under short circuit or load cause the rotor to
rotate faster than without the coils there.

And in no case does the effect cause the output to become more than the
input. Which is the important measure.

Obviously the thing to be learned here by us is that generator coils wound to
have a lot of capacitance will likely be very inefficient due to the effect in
question.

When a generator coil exhibits the acceleration under load effect at resonance the output
of that coil is limited to much less than if the coil was used at a lesser
frequency due to frequency induced impedance.

Basically the effect is inefficient.

..

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

[Turion]

Misunderstanding

I never said Thaine's setup was OU. I don't have much faith that ANY device can deliver COP>1 until I see it working on my bench. I have never seen a single coil device capable of delivering COP>1, but then I haven't seen everything out there either. Perhaps it IS possible. But I'll believe it when I can put my scope on it.

Dave

[BroMikey]

Well Turion

Basically the effect is inefficient.

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

Thane has only shown one or two coils operating at a time.

The main thing we all need to take note of is the fact that

the business man standing there in Thane's demo represents

a company that spends X amount on electric daily.


Thane showed the man how he could go from conventional

mode to the RegenX MODE and back again. Many have contested

that under a load THANES effect goes away. This has been proven

not to be the case.


Even under a load the rotors will increase energy.

Now let's look at the cost saving. Let's say the man standing

at the demo spent $100,000 per month to run a machine or

machines. With Thane's setup the man would get $30,000 back

and he could buy a lot of THANE hardware



What I don't understand is why people don't realize that if 30

percent can be saved by recycling, something that the universities

say is a taboo discussion, why can't they figure out that 60 percent

is possible?????? Why not 160 percent???????????????



Anyway just a thought for those who think.

[mbrownn]

Good to see you contributing Farmhand.

I’m interested to see how this acceleration under load works as I have not used this method, and its good to know all sides of the story so thanks for that.

My method for creating acceleration under load is by the use of a transformer effect. As with a transformer, when you draw more current from the output, the current increases in the input. This increased magnetic field, because of larger current flow, is what accelerates my device under electrical load from the output.

As you say, no overunity here. The output winding is also fed through the input coil and another load in series, so this output reduces the input current requirement from the source and the motor continues to run at the same or increased power. IE lower electrical input, same electrical power in the motor, same mechanical output. Its an efficiency increase caused by a different type of regeneration.

The device also has a generator coil built onto the same frame. so now we have a transformer, a motor and a generator all on the same iron frame. An efficiency improvement because we only have 1 set of iron losses in stead of 3.

Enough about my device, the point is, if we get acceleration, we have either increased efficiency or reduced losses to get increased mechanical output provided we dont draw more from the source.

Reducing effective BEMF is another method of achieving the same effect.

By using all these methods and combining them in a single device, we get closer to the goal.

If the method Vidbid is talking about could be included in my device, I will try it.

[Mario]

Well Turion, I guess baselines can be useful for seeing differences that
changes have made to a setup and so forth, but the overall efficiency is
always the output divided by the input or the total input compared to the
utilized output.

A "baseline" has no place in an efficiency determination.

Honestly we could use baselines to show improvements with anything.

I can show and have shown speed up under short circuit or heavy loads with
various setups, therefore it is nothing special and has a perfectly valid
explanation in conventional "electro-magnetics".

It's a very simple setup to test.


Set up a rotor with magnets spun by a Prime mover of some description.

Determine the frequency of the magnets rotation at a prime mover speed
about 1/2 to 3/4 the maximum speed under load.

Calculate or determine by trial and error the inductance needed to obtain a
harmonic of or a resonant frequency the same as the magnet rotation speed.

Set up a generator coil with a bit less than the inductance determined in the
previous step so that when a capacitor of 1 to a few uF is added across the
gen coil resonance or a harmonic is approached before the prime mover is at
full power.

Basically if you scope the gen coil and run the setup at say 1/2 of the
maximum speed it is easy to find a capacitor size that causes the voltage
wave form to increase dramatically when the cap is connected, or to fine
tune the speed to where the effect is got.

The currents caused to flow in the coil and cap should make the prime mover
slow or use more input power.

Short or load the gen coil to cause the rotor to speed up again.

Trial and error can get the speed just right so that the effect is best seen or
not as I did in the first video I posted.

I think I used in one case about 7 mH and about 14 uF or something to get a
few hundred Hz.

In no case does the speed up under short circuit or load cause the rotor to
rotate faster than without the coils there.

And in no case does the effect cause the output to become more than the
input. Which is the important measure.

Obviously the thing to be learned here by us is that generator coils wound to
have a lot of capacitance will likely be very inefficient due to the effect in
question.

When a generator coil exhibits the acceleration under load effect at resonance the output
of that coil is limited to much less than if the coil was used at a lesser
frequency due to frequency induced impedance.

Basically the effect is inefficient.

..

If Thanes setup is OU then why is mine not OU as well ?

Answer is simple Thanes setup is not OU never was.

..

What a bunch of crap! Who's talking about resonance? Of course if you bring a generator coil to resonance, be it at its own resonant frequency, be it with the help of a tuning cap, the prime mover will see the biggest load it can see…!
I wonder how many people have seen what you just described and thought they had the Kromrey effect speed up when shorting or putting a load across their unsuspected resonance. Especially people using series bifilar which brings the resonant point to a much lower point.
But that's not what the effect is all about, this is about shifting the coils "lenz" response towards TDC get it. Read up page 11 of this link. This is probably one of the best explanations for the effect. You may learn something.. Why do some people always try to mislead others…? Well you farmhand are not new at this are you?

Mario

[bistander]

Dynamic braking

What puzzles me is that I have always found that when I short the armature or a phase (coil(s)) on a permanent magnet machine (motor or generator), it comes to a screeching stop. And is impossible to rotate by hand at more than an RPM or two. So what gives with these demonstrations of "regenerative acceleration"? Two things come to mind. One is the coil impedance is ridiculously high. And two, that the magnetic circuit is ridiculously loose or leaky. In other words, the machine is useless as far as doing any real work. It is just an academic exercise showing an anomaly caused by armature reaction.

[Matthew Jones]

What puzzles me is that I have always found that when I short the armature or a phase (coil(s)) on a permanent magnet machine (motor or generator), it comes to a screeching stop. And is impossible to rotate by hand at more than an RPM or two. So what gives with these demonstrations of "regenerative acceleration"? Two things come to mind. One is the coil impedance is ridiculously high. And two, that the magnetic circuit is ridiculously loose or leaky. In other words, the machine is useless as far as doing any real work. It is just an academic exercise showing an anomaly caused by armature reaction.

It doesn't have to be leaky for sure, high impedance is good way to go about it but primarily used to counteract the attraction caused in a normal gen coil. Its a pretty great thing to be able to load a gen up and it doesn't slow down or require more power to turn then when the generator was open. I have never understood the delusion that says thats not useful. And its really simple to implement.

Matt

[Farmhand]

Well people can decide for themselves and do whatever they like. I've given my opinion and will do it again if I feel like it.

Everyone should show their setups and their input and output so we can see who has the most efficient setup. My guess is none are OU. Go figure.

..

[Farmhand]

What puzzles me is that I have always found that when I short the armature or a phase (coil(s)) on a permanent magnet machine (motor or generator), it comes to a screeching stop. And is impossible to rotate by hand at more than an RPM or two. So what gives with these demonstrations of "regenerative acceleration"? Two things come to mind. One is the coil impedance is ridiculously high. And two, that the magnetic circuit is ridiculously loose or leaky. In other words, the machine is useless as far as doing any real work. It is just an academic exercise showing an anomaly caused by armature reaction.

I agree the machines are useless as far as doing a reasonable amount of real
work for the cost and as with Thanes setup they are very inefficient when
the total input is compared to the useful output.

That is also true for the transformer version of the effect where the input
drops when the transformer is loaded. I also demonstrated a transformer
performing the effect.

Search for a thread by OverunityGuide about it.

If a setup is using 180 Watts so that 20 Watts can be drawn without slowing
the machine or even speeding it up a bit then that is about 11 % efficient.
So no, doing that is not useful it's wasteful.

..

[Turion]

Seeing is believing

Here is what I have seen

I threaded a 12" rotor onto the shaft of my razor scooter motor and spin it up to 1850 RPM. I recorded the amps, volts and RPM's of the motor. Then I introduced an air core coil to the rotor. (Howdy! Glad to meet ya.) I saw no increase in amp draw, no increase in voltage and no decrease in RPM's. This indicated to me that the air core coil in and of itself has no effect either positive nor negative on the prime mover. When I put a load across the coil, I got no increase in RPM and no increase in amp draw.

So I stepped it up.

I did the exact SAME experiment with my three rotor generator. I recorded amp draw, voltage and RPM prior to introducing coils, and then introduced 12 coils to the rotors. (This took a while as there was a lot of shaking of hands and meaningless greetings.) Again there was little or NO change in amp draw or voltage nor was there a decrease in RPM's. I will say that the needle on the amp meter did wiggle, but did not change substantially. When I loaded one coil I got a decrease in amp draw and an increase in RPM. Not much, but measurable.

That is what I saw. Make of it what you will. Ignore it if you choose.

Dave

I should say that the FIRST coil I used is NOT the same coil as what is in my generator. When I took a single coil out of my generator and ran the same test without by itself, I got a speed up under load of 12 RPM. Again, nothing exciting, but I am happy with just maintaining speed under load and producing the most power possible.

[BroMikey]

Hey Dave

Good to hear SOMEBODY speak with an analytical mind. I can't

stress enough what it means to me personally. It is like we are

drowning in a sea of mindlessness for some of these so called

experimenters. Men who have the wooden wheel with all of the

spools but have little power to reason it out. What you have

stated is exactly what Thane has stated. One reactive input

and then keep adding coils for no appreciable input power

change. On the other hand those 12 coils are raking it in

big time. It is posts like this that make these threads worth

something. And all of that other Big Chezz Wiz boasting

is nothing but whale butter.


You are leading the way because you are not motivated by ego.


It is your turn now, you are the oldest and wisest.The

younger guys know how to make it work also but like most young

men they must shake their poor behavior patterns.


The more I hear YOU talk the more I am apt to do some experimenting

because I can see that those large wafer magnets flying around at

break neck speeds have good potential. Great for adding more coils.


All of the Bi-Toroid researchers have stated that the current is 90

degrees out of phase with the voltage and this ReGenX mode also

works on the similar principle.


This of course is my amateur opinion.

[BroMikey]

I agree the machines are useless

'''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''
If a setup is using 180 Watts so that 20 Watts can be drawn without slowing
the machine or even speeding it up a bit then that is about 11 % efficient.


..

Any beginner can get closer than 11 percent. I can see you are less

than a beginner. The power to reason is a gift. Attacks without

experiments show nothing. If you have done the experiments then you

know that anyone just starting out can take one input and collect

most of the energy by simply connecting a conventional generator

to the other end. We are not talking about 11 percent here.


This discussion is for someone who has passed their test by

conventional means. I can take an off the shelf motor and couple

it up to a car alternator and do better than your 11 percent.


Until you can build a rotor and coil set that is not wasting

90 percent of it's own power you can never see what this thread

deals with.


For pete sakes don't post that 11 percent figure again, it make you

look bad. With all of those magnets and you can't do as good

as a conventional generator with no magnets? Something is seriously

wrong there. Get it up to the 80-90 degree mark such as we see

is standard university level thinking. If you can't do that then you

don't qualifiy for going over 90 percent with THAT rig, whatever

it is. If you have a 1/2" gap between magnets and coils then you

need to read a school book. If your coils are a twisted up mess

again back to conventional. Also loading and matching loads can

set back your efficiency.


This thread is for people who can acheive a conventional standard

then proceed to go beyond. Get it up to 90 then we will talk 95.


If all you have is 11 percent then I have to say you are not trying

because a school boy beginner tops that the first day.

No you are not really trying. Delayed Lenz and Thane is a master

at teaching, he is worthy of front row students.


PDi Regenerative Acceleration and BiTT Principles



[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5osYN5f35Bc[/VIDEO]


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y89nMe7AGE[/VIDEO]


[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MzHWJc1gSc[/VIDEO]

[bistander]

Efficiency

I agree the machines are useless as far as doing a reasonable amount of real
work for the cost and as with Thanes setup they are very inefficient when
the total input is compared to the useful output.

That is also true for the transformer version of the effect where the input
drops when the transformer is loaded. I also demonstrated a transformer
performing the effect.

Search for a thread by OverunityGuide about it.

If a setup is using 180 Watts so that 20 Watts can be drawn without slowing
the machine or even speeding it up a bit then that is about 11 % efficient.
So no, doing that is not useful it's wasteful.

..

I didn't see anything from OverunityGuide which was interesting, but I did run across this. It is actually a well done test and results are plotted like this:



From this link: DLE-TEST07 : Full measurements on the Regenerative Acceleration Generator from Thane C. Heins

The plot uses generator RPM as the abscissas (x-axis) and shows delta RPM and delta input power in percentage. That is input power from the power supply driving the motor turning the generator. So there is no measure of generator output power. So there is no means to determine the efficiency of the generator. However, the generator load is 0.1Ω and the coil resistance is 23Ω. So from those two parameters, a best case efficiency for the generator regardless of load or speed is 0.43%. Not 43%, but 0.0043 or 0.43%. Less than 1 percent. But this is near a short circuit output where this "regenerative acceleration" is observed. And efficiency at short circuit is zero. So it make sense to me and is why I question the usefulness of such generators.

Has anything similar to this "regenerative acceleration" been observed and recorded at a useful generator output? Like maybe 200 to 300 Watts for a device that size? How about taking a commercially available generator and rewinding it to improve efficiency from 80% to 85%? Then do a side by side comparison test under load measuring inputs and outputs? Is that too much to ask?

bi