Barbosa and Leal Devices - Info and Replication Details

[citfta]

MadMack, YOU are the one demonstrating your ignorance of Clarence's circuit. Connecting a circuit to ground is not what is creating the ground loop problem. Connecting a circuit to ground AND powering that circuit from mains power directly is what creates the ground loop problem.

The National Electrical Code clearly gives the reason for having an earth ground connected to the main electrical panel. And that reason is exactly as I have stated before. So my advice to NOT disconnect the earth ground was most certainly not from ignorance.

You still haven't given any reason for not using an isolation transformer or using a battery and inverter. Why is that? An isolation transformer will give you perfect sine wave power which you seem to think is necessary. Wantomake has already shown he got so positive results using a cheap inverter and battery so your argument about inverter power not being good enough is also invalid. And Clarence is using an inverter in his circuit. So you really aren't making any arguments that make any sense.

Carroll

[MadMack]

Level, you may have looked at the schematics very carefully but it is obvious you do not understand what you have looked at. If you did you would not have agreed with that ignorant tirade of citfa's about my supposedly dangerous advice. Neither one of you realized the earth ground was reestablished through Clarence's circuit, so you both have proven to everyone that you really don't understand what you are talking about.

You should rethink what you are insisting on as the only acceptable device configuration because you are not seeing the flaw in your thinking, again. May I suggest that if you truly wish to understand that you build even a small replica yourself and do some testing of your own? Then maybe you can restore some of your credibility.

Mack

[BroMikey]

I believe I hear that HARP music playing right now!
I believe they call it the LOOP-de-LOOP song HA! HA!

You're still ignored.

Clarence

Please read the information

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyVbevU-LDY

Clarence is a very patient man, Thanks Clarence.

Send this to the guys for me.

[clarence]

Yes, I have of course looked at the schematics very carefully. Power will still loop back to the mains panel ground point or to a utility pole ground point, even if the neutral at the input of the device is grounded to some ground rods. I think it would be a mistake to just assume that no or little power is looping back to the mains neutral ground points just because they are further away. With a good earth ground connection and half decent earth conductivity, the earth ground resistance should only be very low. Tesla showed that he could transmit power through great distances in the ground. The SWER utility power system also works on the principle that the earth ground return path can be very long and still provide full power.

At any rate this is a moot point since as I have pointed out there should be no reason at all for not using a battery and inverter, and doing so will eliminate any questions of power coming from mains ground loops, or ground loops throwing off power meters. If someone can show that they can deliver more power to a load than they are drawing from a battery when powering from a battery and inverter, then they may well be onto something, and that would definitely be worth investigating further in my opinion.

I believe I hear that HARP music playing right now!
I believe they call it the LOOP-de-LOOP song HA! HA!

You're still ignored.

Clarence

[level]

Level, have you and citfa even studied Clarence's circuit? Apparently not.
Look at it.
See the earth grounds bonded to the neutral?

Yes, I have of course looked at the schematics very carefully. Power will still loop back to the mains panel ground point or to a utility pole ground point, even if the neutral at the input of the device is grounded to some ground rods. I think it would be a mistake to just assume that no or little power is looping back to the mains neutral ground points just because they are further away. With a good earth ground connection and half decent earth conductivity, the earth ground resistance should only be very low. Tesla showed that he could transmit power through great distances in the ground. The SWER utility power system also works on the principle that the earth ground return path can be very long and still provide full power.

At any rate this is a moot point since as I have pointed out there should be no reason at all for not using a battery and inverter, and doing so will eliminate any questions of power coming from mains ground loops, or ground loops throwing off power meters. If someone can show that they can deliver more power to a load than they are drawing from a battery when powering from a battery and inverter, then they may well be onto something, and that would definitely be worth investigating further in my opinion.

[MadMack]

Level, have you and citfa even studied Clarence's circuit? Apparently not.

Look at it.

See the earth grounds bonded to the neutral?

.

[level]

Ground loops can potentially provide a lot of power!

In case anyone missed it, this is an example of what sort of power you can draw from the mains hot wire to earth ground just using a single two foot long rusty ground rod. In this test I was powering a 100 Watt light bulb. If I were to use several more much longer ground rods I should be able to power a large microwave or high power plug in electric heater or whatever else to full power. Don't underestimate what kind of power a mains ground loop can provide...

[level]

A important rule of thumb

This also bears repeating:
A very simple reality check is, if it works when connected to the mains but doesn't work the same at all when powering from a battery and inverter, then very obviously the extra power you are seeing when plugged into the mains is coming from the mains itself.

Barbosa and Leal showed the use of their devices with batteries and inverters in their patent application drawings, so there really should be no reason for not doing all your testing with a battery and inverter, since it eliminates various potential problems.

A very good rule of thumb is that for basically any free energy arrangement that requires an earth ground connection to produce free energy, you should only power the device with a battery if the setup requires a power source. If you see someone powering such an arrangement using the mains, then you know right off that any test results could very well be quite misleading.

Happy experimenting!

[level]

But for someone to claim that anyone exercising proper precautions CAN NOT use mains power in any way to test a B&L device and if they do then all their measurements are WORTHLESS is absolutely wrong and you know it. My BAD ADVICE as you call it is merely an outline to demonstrate that your statements about mains power being worthless for research are false.

Hello MadMack. No, you apparently overlooked that the mains panel can very well be grounded to the cold water pipes (it is in my house) and the neutral can also be earth grounded at the utility pole. That means if someone had followed your advice they could still well be completely mislead regarding any results they see in tests. Testing with the mains for this type of device will always leave the possibility open for possible earth ground loops, and you therefore just can't draw any conclusions from the results. It is possible mains power meters could not properly measure power usage when power is going through a ground loop return as well. It depends on the power meter that is in use, but this is a real possibility. If someone sincerely wants to avoid the very real possibility of misleading results, then simply do not use the mains as the input power source.

[MadMack]

Yes you're right, the average person who doesn't have a clue about electricity or building wiring should not try to work on mains power or their service panel.

That kind of person should not try to build a B&L device or any other high voltage high current device in the first place unless they have a death wish.

If you don't know enough about electricity to use proper extreme caution at all times, stay away from it!

I am not advising anyone to use mains power as a permanent supply for a B&L device nor am I advising the permanent removal of the earth wire.

By all means test your device with an isolation transformer or battery/inverter. You do have those don't you?

But for someone to claim that anyone exercising proper precautions CAN NOT use mains power in any way to test a B&L device and if they do then all their measurements are WORTHLESS is absolutely wrong and you know it. My BAD ADVICE as you call it is merely an outline to demonstrate that your statements about mains power being worthless for research are false.

.

[level]

Now can we be done with this nonsense that you cannot use mains power to your B&L device for testing purposes?

I agree with citfta. You are giving bad advice. The average person is not familiar enough with electrical wiring and the service panel beyond knowing how to reset a breaker or replace a fuse, so it would be dangerous for the average person to mess around in their mains service panel. Also, as citfta pointed out, disconnecting the earth ground from the mains panel would be a very real shock hazard. That's why the neutral is earth grounded at the panel in many countries. Also from what I understand in some if not many countries there is also a ground wire running from the panel ground bus to the cold water copper pipes for safety, which could act as a secondary earth ground for the ground bus if the cold water intake pipe to the house or building uses copper or other metal type pipe buried in the ground. Also, in some if not many countries, the neutral is also grounded at the utility pole, so there is the real likelihood that the neutral will still be earth grounded even if someone were to disconnect the service panel earth ground rod wire. As long as someone is powering from the mains, there is always the possibility of ground loops, so the results will always be questionable at best.

There is just no good reason for not using a battery and inverter, which avoids all sorts of potential problems related to using the mains, and simplifies power input measurements to the device. If someone is powering this sort of Barbosa and Leal setup from the mains, then you simply can't evaluate the results. For those sincerely interested in trying to understand how a Barbosa and Leal device really performs, the best and simplest choice overall is to power from a battery and inverter. You are completely disconnected and isolated from the mains when using a battery and inverter, and so any doubts about possible ground loops are taken right out of the picture.

[MadMack]

citfa, you talk like everyone reading this forum doesn't have the sense God gave a goose.

Insult away, go ahead

[level]

Level,
No mains connection. Just regular inverter no pure sine wave. Smart car battery charger, marine battery bank (solar bank). Two no resistor car coils(old upright can type).

I did make a drawing in one sketch book to study with, not sure will show up good as picture. I don't have the schematic drawing feature on this kindle fire.

I use the Kurt oscillator setup without the Darlington pair.

https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=QoYDbHhbaNY

Hope this helps,
wantomake

Hello wantomake. Sounds interesting. If you get a chance sometime to post the drawing, that would probably be of interest to many here.

[citfta]

EVERYBODY!!! DO NOT FOLLOW THIS VERY DANGEROUS ADVICE!!!

This advice will make all the wiring in your house including the ground and neutral wires dangerous to touch. The purpose of the earth ground is to establish a reference to ground for your whole house wiring. Removing the earth ground for any reason can allow the ground and neutral wires of your house to rise to several hundred volts above earth ground and can potentially damage any sensitive electronics in your home even with all the breakers turned off. Also if you have an older appliance with a metal housing like a toaster the metal housing was usually tied to the green ground wire. So now the metal housing could be several hundred volts above ground. And if you reach for the toaster while your other hand is resting on the edge of your stainless steel sink you could be seriously injured or killed. Turning off the breaker only turns off the connection to the hot wire. The ground and neutral wires are still connected to your device. I have actually seen this happen. I am not making this stuff up!

MadMack, why do you have so much objection to using an isolation transformer? It would be much simpler and accomplish the same thing as your suggestion to remove the earth ground. Do you have a technical reason for objecting or are you just following Clarence's policy of trying to ridicule anyone that makes valid technical arguments against using straight mains power.

OK, this is the last I am going to say about using the mains instead of an isolation transformer or battery/inverter as a power source for your B&L circuit testing.

To use the mains power for TESTING a B&L device:

First of all, do not omit the ground wire from the mains supply to your device. I am talking about the third green or bare wire that is found in all 120V branch circuits here in the US. This wire is bonded to the NEUTRAL at the service panel along with all of the white neutral wires and ground wires from your house branch circuits. This is NOT the EARTH ground wire.

Turn off your main breaker switch to kill all power to your house. Add a separate 120V 20A breaker to your service panel. Use this breaker for your B&L device. Run a 3 wire romex out to your B&L device. Connect the black wire to the new breaker, the white wire and the bare wire to the neutral/ground bus in the service panel. At the other end, wire the romex up to an outlet box, 3 prong type of course. Connect your B&L device to this outlet box with an ordinary three prong plug. Make sure the plug ground wire is connected to a common bus on your B&L device along with any ground wires from load outlets.

Now when you want to test your B&L device, turn off the main breaker and all the house breakers. Disconnect the EARTH wire at your service panel and isolate it. Turn on the main breaker and the breaker for the B&L device only. Run your tests. When you are finished, reverse the procedure and restore the earth wire to the service panel.

Doing this will remove any possibility of any current feeding your device from the mains EARTH ground. Any load you run for testing will have the exact same short circuit protection as any other branch circuit in your house.

For any who don't already know, the ground wire in a branch circuit outlet is bonded to the neutral bus to provide a high current path back to the transformer feeding your house so a short circuit will cause the panel breaker to trip.

Now can we be done with this nonsense that you cannot use mains power to your B&L device for testing purposes?

Mack

Carroll

PS: I really do hope this was the last post you make about using mains power. Your advice is terrible!

[clarence]

OK, this is the last I am going to say about using the mains instead of an isolation transformer or battery/inverter as a power source for your B&L circuit testing.

To use the mains power for TESTING a B&L device:

First of all, do not omit the ground wire from the mains supply to your device. I am talking about the third green or bare wire that is found in all 120V branch circuits here in the US. This wire is bonded to the NEUTRAL at the service panel along with all of the white neutral wires and ground wires from your house branch circuits. This is NOT the EARTH ground wire.

Turn off your main breaker switch to kill all power to your house. Add a separate 120V 20A breaker to your service panel. Use this breaker for your B&L device. Run a 3 wire romex out to your B&L device. Connect the black wire to the new breaker, the white wire and the bare wire to the neutral/ground bus in the service panel. At the other end, wire the romex up to an outlet box, 3 prong type of course. Connect your B&L device to this outlet box with an ordinary three prong plug. Make sure the plug ground wire is connected to a common bus on your B&L device along with any ground wires from load outlets.

Now when you want to test your B&L device, turn off the main breaker and all the house breakers. Disconnect the EARTH wire at your service panel and isolate it. Turn on the main breaker and the breaker for the B&L device only. Run your tests. When you are finished, reverse the procedure and restore the earth wire to the service panel.

Doing this will remove any possibility of any current feeding your device from the mains EARTH ground. Any load you run for testing will have the exact same short circuit protection as any other branch circuit in your house.

For any who don't already know, the ground wire in a branch circuit outlet is bonded to the neutral bus to provide a high current path back to the transformer feeding your house so a short circuit will cause the panel breaker to trip.

Now can we be done with this nonsense that you cannot use mains power to your B&L device for testing purposes?

Mack

Hello MadMack,

Well done Sir!
NICE instructions and advice also.


I do a similar procedure .
Since I am alone and totally live by myself I use the so called smart meter it self to measure how much kilowatts I use during a testing run. I tun off everything in the house PERIOD except for the outlet I am using to power my unit. the two plugs from the inverter are unplugged from it and these I plug into a three way three prong adapter which is in turn plugged into a kill-A-Watt meter which is in turn plugged into my wall receptacle.
I use the Kill-A-Watt meter because it gives me a total run time versus watt usage for the test period. just extra source of info.

Before I make use of any power from the wall 20 amp circuit I watch the utility meter until it flips to the NEXT ending kill0watt ending number Then I begin my test and I watch the meter UNTIL it flips its end number again! since I am testing with only a 250 watt bulb some times it takes many HOURS before the meter number flips again.
using the watts consumed by the load bulb and the lentgh of time before the utility meter flips showing a killowat has finally been consumed ALWAYS tells me that the units load is drawing most of its power from the EARTH and NOT the utility grid. about an 80EARTH : 20UTILITY .
I didn't mind doing it my way in the winter when it was cooler but now that the HEAT is here your way would probably be more preferred!

I would personally like to thank you for your efforts and info!

thanks again and Respects Sir,

Clarence