New Motor Winding Arrangement

[mbrownn]

Where do you get this? Can you show me a motor that will run off 1 volt at 100 amp efficiently?
I can show you one that will run at 100 volt 1 amp and produce more torque or HP than 100 watts should allow and recover 90% of the energy put in.

I am not sure what it is you test but if voltage is not important "voltage not even being part of the equation" then you need to show us, cause that is contrary to everything I have ever heard.

Maybe its better to say put up or .....

Matt

Hi Matt,

Im sure you will agree if you put 100v at 1 amp through something that is 100w and that 1v at 100 amps is also 100w, the power is the same.

I have never talked about recovery of 90% only 17 to 35%

On voltage I said "so if we don't need it, why produce it excessively" I never mentioned running a motor at 1v and 100 amps although I have produced significant torque at 3v 8 amps.

Good examples of low voltage high power motors are car starter motors running at 10v 100+amps or 5v 100+amps for a six volt system.

I have never talked about high motor efficiencies, if you care to reread what i said was 35% efficiency with a possibility of 50%

Manufacturers claim 90+% efficiency but under PWM, but the same motor fed with DC is often 55%

The figures I am talking about are either real world or realistically achievable.

The only voltage required is to overcome BEMF and resistance under ohms law with a small amount more to get the current flow we want. Typically a car starter motor is fed with 12v and 100amps but the voltage drops to 9 or 10v when a battery is under such heavy drain. These motors operate with 50% BEMF so around 4.5 to 5v at 100+amps is doing the work. with a six volt system it is 2.25v to 2.5v at 100+ amps doing the work. Car starters are quite low in efficiency at 35% at best, but they were never built to be efficient.

I know going low volts and high amps is the opposite to what most on this site are doing, but I do think there is some merit in this, and I intend to prove it. With much of the current being produced by an inbuilt generator and inductive kickback we don't need so much from the source.

I haven't been able to mitigate the BEMF in the armature so we are stuck with that, but it is possible to do something about the BEMF in a field coil and there have been many examples of that posted on this site. I'm not going to go into that on this thread now, because I want people to understand what is going on with the armature first.

Be patient and ask questions if you don't understand what I’m saying. sometimes I am not good at explaining things. If you think I am wrong then say so, but there is no need to be confrontational.

[Matthew Jones]

Don't be afraid of current draw, its a requirement of these types of motor.......Torque in a motor is a result of ampere turns, voltage not even being part of the equation, so if we don't need it, why produce it excessively.

These are the statements that you get you called out.

Why not produce excessive voltage and run it through the motor? Use High impedance windings to regulate the current as opposed to using all that current on low impedance windings that just produce resistance in the form of Bemf.

I don't care what configuration you have or use, you do not have to settle for "requirement of these types of motor".

The man in Bobs first post was not looking to settle, but he had few flaws inherent to that winding pattern. One being the current was probably high and so he was bucking nature and he should have added impedance to the windings and using higher voltage. The equation you so proudly pronounce "Torque in a motor is a result of ampere turns, voltage not even being part of the equation" IS FLAWED!!!!.

If you think for a minute that trying to work within that and still achieve better results your Flawed. Its not going to happen. Mildly pushing that agenda to justify a waist of time is not beneficial to anyone. I would think anyone who knows anything would say just the same if they cared to. No one is improving existing motor configuration.

Now that said if your forced to work in the parameters of existing motor tech IE starter motors the only options you have to lower consumption is to configure a driver that uses the motor winding to boost the voltage output so that you can recover it in a manageable level. Most people aren't spending the time to learn how to do that either.

Switching, Switching, Switching....Thats the only option you have to not settle for the same old thing.

Measure your winding Henry Count and calculate..

https://learn.adafruit.com/diy-boost-calc

Calculator is on the second page. Or start reading through Linear Technologies database on Energy Harvesting To learn to use the product they offer then possibly you'll have the tools you need to improve a motor driver.

But NEVER will you improve the standard motor. No matter what fantasy some spaceman wants you to believe..

Matt

[mbrownn]

These are the statements that you get you called out.

Why not produce excessive voltage and run it through the motor? Use High impedance windings to regulate the current as opposed to using all that current on low impedance windings that just produce resistance in the form of Bemf.

I don't care what configuration you have or use, you do not have to settle for "requirement of these types of motor".

The man in Bobs first post was not looking to settle, but he had few flaws inherent to that winding pattern. One being the current was probably high and so he was bucking nature and he should have added impedance to the windings and using higher voltage. The equation you so proudly pronounce "Torque in a motor is a result of ampere turns, voltage not even being part of the equation" IS FLAWED!!!!.

If you think for a minute that trying to work within that and still achieve better results your Flawed. Its not going to happen. Mildly pushing that agenda to justify a waist of time is not beneficial to anyone. I would think anyone who knows anything would say just the same if they cared to. No one is improving existing motor configuration.

Now that said if your forced to work in the parameters of existing motor tech IE starter motors the only options you have to lower consumption is to configure a driver that uses the motor winding to boost the voltage output so that you can recover it in a manageable level. Most people aren't spending the time to learn how to do that either.

Switching, Switching, Switching....Thats the only option you have to not settle for the same old thing.

Measure your winding Henry Count and calculate..

https://learn.adafruit.com/diy-boost-calc

Calculator is on the second page. Or start reading through Linear Technologies database on Energy Harvesting To learn to use the product they offer then possibly you'll have the tools you need to improve a motor driver.

But NEVER will you improve the standard motor. No matter what fantasy some spaceman wants you to believe..

Matt

I don't understand why paraphrasing or quoting from Peter Lindemann's Electric Motor Secrets should get me called out, Is he wrong?

Is it true that when you have two coils of equal resistance, applied with the same voltage, but one with more turns, the one with more turns has a stronger magnetic field?

Is it not the case if you have a 1 ohm coil and apply a AA battery to it, then compare it with D cell applied to it that you have a greater magnetic field with a D cell?

Yes, a voltage has to be applied but it is the current and the number of turns that influences torque. If we increase voltage without increasing the current the torque is pretty much unaffected.

I don't know what is flawed about that, if you disagree, take it up with Peter.

Yes, I know there are many ways to spec out a motor and so you don't have to settle for any arbitrary figure, but that is not the point. The point is that we want to use the minimum input power for a given torque.

I have built and tested that type of winding and with all the segments and coils fitted there are problems. I advocate a single coil or two coils set at 90 degrees. This way we eliminate some of those problems. I don't consider the arcing a problem as such, I consider it a source of usable power to be collected by a second set of brushes.

I am sure that your method will also work. I don't disagree with you there, I'm just saying there is another way. You may consider it a waste of time but I don't and the results will speak for themselves.

This is not improving an existing configuration, it is demonstrating a different one using existing parts with no need for a driver at all.

Typically when using a driver we do raise the voltage above what the motor would happily run on using DC. The net result is loosing some of the gains given by PWM to ohmic losses. again its a compromise.

There is another way, we can manipulate (lower) the inductance of the coil when the voltage is applied. While this isn't apparent now it will be later, but i don't want to make it too complicated for people to follow.

I agree when it comes to drivers most people don't want to spend the time to learn about it, and I am guilty of that too.

This is a learning exercise to see what can be done.

1) First we create a pulse motor using brushes to switch by modifying an armature to the simplest of windings.
2) We recover energy from the inductive kickback inherent in this type of winding.
3) We add a generator, built into the motor.
4) reducing but not eliminating BEMF
5) More to follow (something different)
6) More to follow (coil interactions, complicated for me anyway )
7) still under R&D.......

Be patient, and see how it progresses, don't judge it and dismiss it because its old tech.

Mellow out and see what happens. Its still a work in progress so I don't have all the answers.

I have given stages 1, 2, and 3, if someone tries it, I will move onto more interesting stuff.

[Bob Smith]

MBrownn,
How many poles for the armature do you suggest for these kinds of mods?(looking to order more).
Bob

[Matthew Jones]

Mellow out and see what happens. Its still a work in progress so I don't have all the answers.

I have given stages 1, 2, and 3, if someone tries it, I will move onto more interesting stuff.

I'm not upset and I am perfectly calm about it. Its just pointless sometime to be liberal about some things. People do not change course because they read something, they change because they are put in an awkward position.

They want to prove you wrong so they try and when they can't then they look to see why.

So all I have to say is after 10 years now of working on these problems I have determined that low voltage high amperage is not going to improve the situation. Preaching that it will, definitely will NOT improve the situation.

I am not trying to stress you out, I know you from your first post. Your a simulator guy. You may have tested some things, But you have not proven that what Peter Lindemann says at one point is the truth. You just read it. Then you quote it as your own. And I respect Peter for a lot of things but he has changed his opinion on things over the last 10 years more than I have brushed my teeth in the last month. 2 times a day mind you.

If your going to quote things as fact know what you are saying is right.

Matt

[shylo]

Where do you get this? Can you show me a motor that will run off 1 volt at 100 amp efficiently?
I can show you one that will run at 100 volt 1 amp and produce more torque or HP than 100 watts should allow and recover 90% of the energy put i

Matt

Hi Matt , I would like to wind it ,can we see some specs?
Your bouncer is the same effect as Skinner as I think alot of the designs are similar.
Have you run tranformers in series , feed one side of the motor, via a bridge off of the primaries on one side,
Can the travel be split? The flow....needs to be ....filtered..??
Thanks artv

[Matthew Jones]

Hi Matt , I would like to wind it ,can we see some specs?
Thanks artv

NO!!

[Matthew Jones]

LOL

[mbrownn]

I'm not upset and I am perfectly calm about it. Its just pointless sometime to be liberal about some things. People do not change course because they read something, they change because they are put in an awkward position.

They want to prove you wrong so they try and when they can't then they look to see why.

So all I have to say is after 10 years now of working on these problems I have determined that low voltage high amperage is not going to improve the situation. Preaching that it will, definitely will NOT improve the situation.

I am not trying to stress you out, I know you from your first post. Your a simulator guy. You may have tested some things, But you have not proven that what Peter Lindemann says at one point is the truth. You just read it. Then you quote it as your own. And I respect Peter for a lot of things but he has changed his opinion on things over the last 10 years more than I have brushed my teeth in the last month. 2 times a day mind you.

If your going to quote things as fact know what you are saying is right.

Matt

Hi Matt, glad to hear that your chilled , its just your posts come across a little pointed.

Its good to know Peter has an open mind too, I haven't exchanged emails with him for years.

I have in fact run an experiment to see if what Peter said was true, although not very scientific, the point was made. I got 12v starter from a Yanmar marine engine, I think it draws 220A on full load but cant be sure. When connected to a 12v 10 amp battery charger it slowly accelerated up to around 800 to 1000 RPM, drawing 12.5 amps at first but dropping to 7 amps as the speed was reached. I then put it on the output of a 120v 1 amp transformer (we use 240 here), where it drew 1.5 amps, it barely turned and soon the transformer began to smoke. While the powers are not exactly equal they are in the ball park of each other and with higher current the motor ran all be it unloaded.

When connected to a car battery the acceleration of the motor is so fast the motor jumps off the bench, I wasn't sure how much current the motor peaked at, but I definitely saw 50A on the meter for an instant. Again it settles out around 7 amps.

Yes, I use simulations, and what is wrong with that? I know their limitations and to be truthful, I believe them to be very useful.

I also experiment a lot but unfortunately I don't have a large budget so these can be limited in their usefulness too.

I encourage others to repeat my experiments and simulations to find out if we get similar results, ie replications.

I first started playing around with this sort of stuff about the time Imhotep put out the Bedini Fan, so I have a few years experience too.

And last of all I consult with other people to see if I am interpreting my results in the right way, so there is some consensus on this line of thought.

Now we have done banging our drums I think it would be interesting to see what results would be obtained when someone tries this, don't you?

The first problem will be to get it to run, as this pulse motor does not draw enough current to run well at 12v. A large fast capacitor across the supply helps here, but so does a mod that I have scheduled for later. At first it will seem to confirm your beliefs because some may have to raise the voltage, but later as all the parts come into balance, it will raise one or two eyebrows. When it does run, I think people will be pleased with the moderate recovery and generation. This will be the starting point for the other stuff which is more interesting.

I will try to keep it simple so a newbie can join in.

[Matthew Jones]

I happened across this YT user's video on a novel (at least to me) DC motor winding arrangement. I'd be interested in anyone else's take on it.
My main question is: What happens to the cemf in each set of windings?

If anyone has any observations, I'd love to hear them. Here's the video at the point at which the new method for winding starts (back it up to the beginning if you want to see the standard winding):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9CLtlkl6fM&feature=player_detailpage#t=99

Bob

@mbrownn Read the first post in this thread and watch the movie.

Now read my comment afterwards.

That ends up working like an encapsulated window motor. Its B field winding, or at least I think thats what it is called.

Now one reason he appears to get more power is most likely do to the lower induction, more current. CEMF is the build up of the magnetic field in the iron to slow the current. Since he used less wire and bigger wire (At least it looked like) he has less build up of magnetic field.

Now if he showed it measured and the current was lower well I would say it was novel, but that won't happen. The current may stay more stable across the work load, IE with no work he uses 10 amp, and under load he uses 11, but why use that much power for nothing.

Under conventional winding the motor might use .5 amp with no load and 10 under load, over all less power consumed.

In this thread we did some work with a motor and wound it to run similiar. This motor had 4 poles. We used real high induction and high voltage. Now this arrangement showed a reduction in CEMF, or BEMF what ever you wanna call it. Refer to Peter's explanation as to why this was the case.
Also again look at John Bedini's window motor, same thing stable power over the work load real high induction and real low current flow.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6792-lockridge-device-peter-lindemann.html

Its a shame the guy in the movie doesn't explain the whole Input Output a little better.

Cheers
Matt

Now that you have read those I have a simple question for you.

Why do think anybody want to look at a conventional motor when the topic of conversation is something other than a conventional motor?

Why brown do you think a Bfield require alot of current and NO voltage.

Your experiment of putting 120 vac into a DC 12 volt motor no mater the current is STUPID. Please stick to the discussion and do not try to get people to experiment based on simulation. Motors are wound to specifications, they do not work or fail outside of specification.
Why did the transformer fail? You ask? Because a standard transformer cannot limit current. A 10 amp motor will pull 10 amp or more no matter the voltage it is fed.

Sorry I entered into this discussion with you (mbrownn). You are obviously not capable of playing in reality or having a conversation about the subject material at hand and you have cost everyone the opportunity to learn the positive points of a B field motor.

I will no longer post in this thread.

You mBrownn should hook up with BroMikey. YOu guys are 2 peas in a pod and deserve each other.

Thanks
Matt

[mbrownn]

@mbrownn Read the first post in this thread and watch the movie.

Now read my comment afterwards.



Now that you have read those I have a simple question for you.

Here we go, attack attack attack

Why do think anybody want to look at a conventional motor when the topic of conversation is something other than a conventional motor?

For a start this is not conventional, old yes, but not conventional.

Why brown do you think a Bfield require alot of current and NO voltage.

It only requires sufficient current to do the job. Of course it needs voltage doh but does not require excessive voltage. Why put resistance in the circuit as this causes losses under ohms law. Impedance is different, read my posts. Resistance requires voltage to cause the required current to flow. Lower that resistance and you lower the voltage required and so the power.

Your experiment of putting 120 vac into a DC 12 volt motor no mater the current is STUPID.

A universal type motor will run on AC or DC, didn't you know that? Actually I did have a bridge rectifier in the circuit so the motor was running on DC.

Please stick to the discussion and do not try to get people to experiment based on simulation.

The discussion is about the armature winding, maybe you forgot. I have introduced a simple use of that winding, based upon experiment and simulations, but of course your trying to portray me in a bad way and make out its not real. What are you afraid of Matt?

Motors are wound to specifications, they do not work or fail outside of specification.

Yes, but universal motors are called that for a reason, they can operate in different ways, but of course you didn't know that.

Why did the transformer fail? You ask? Because a standard transformer cannot limit current. A 10 amp motor will pull 10 amp or more no matter the voltage it is fed.

Correct, the idea was to limit the current by supplying the motor from a transformer incapable of supplying a large current while at a similar power.

Sorry I entered into this discussion with you (mbrownn). You are obviously not capable of playing in reality or having a conversation about the subject material at hand and you have cost everyone the opportunity to learn the positive points of a B field motor.

I am sorry you entered into this with your inferred insults, closed mind and misleading statements. You have tried several times to change what I have said into something that a high school child could see is wrong. Why? Are you a gate keeper Mr Jones?

I respected your work in the past, I have never been discourteous, what is your problem?

I will no longer post in this thread.

That is probably a good idea if you insist on this deformation of the facts.

You mBrownn should hook up with BroMikey. YOu guys are 2 peas in a pod and deserve each other.

Now you compare me to some other person, I assume that is meant as an insult. A person that has to resort to insults and disinformation does not have an open mind. I know that you know better, so why do you resort to this?

I don't expect or want an answer to my questions, but you should ask yourself them.

Goodbye Mr Jones

[mbrownn]

MBrownn,
How many poles for the armature do you suggest for these kinds of mods?(looking to order more).
Bob

The idea is that the armature is split 50 50 into two poles, because of this your rotor has to have an even number of slots for the windings. To optimise the armature, we have twice the commutator segments as slots and the number of segments is devisable by 5. The most important thing is to have an even number of slots. If your commutator has the same number of segments as slots we can still get it to work so don't worry. Ideally your brushes would be the same width as your commutator segments, but this isn't usually the case. If they are wider we can usually work with it but you might finish up with a less powerful device because you cant have as many windings on the armature.

The armature on the video would be suitable for 2 windings set at 90 degrees to each other.

If you do choose to wind all the slots, as in the video, you can still build a motor/generator with recovery, but you wont be able to do the mods I will suggest later. If you go for the full set of windings it will be a lot more powerful, but less efficient. Having said that, an overall COP of 0.7 to 0.8 isn't too bad and is close to induction motors.

I do hope you will give this a try despite the opposition.

[Bob Smith]

I'm not looking to get any torque out of the motor - not looking to wind it this way to do work. Rather, just trying to see if there's a way it can be wound to
- harness cemf in windings to its own greater mechanical advantage
- capture inductive backspike in a secondary and put this out at generator end.
There are coil topologies that will do some of these things in various systems; I'd like to try it with a DC motor. I also intrigued by the posibility of other options.

So mbrownn, would you recommend starting with a 10 pole armature?
Bob

[mbrownn]

I'm not looking to get any torque out of the motor - not looking to wind it this way to do work. Rather, just trying to see if there's a way it can be wound to
- harness cemf in windings to its own greater mechanical advantage
- capture inductive backspike in a secondary and put this out at generator end.
There are coil topologies that will do some of these things in various systems; I'd like to try it with a DC motor. I also intrigued by the posibility of other options.

So mbrownn, would you recommend starting with a 10 pole armature?
Bob

Making this a pulse motor reduces torque significantly as the coils tend not to get saturated. That makes it physically large for its power.

This method of winding makes it relatively simple to collect inductive kickback, and with correct brush timing and the right width field magnets or coils, you will add to the torque a little too, recovering a little of what was lost in converting it to a pulse motor.

As I said, I haven't yet been able to reduce the BEMF in the armature itself. If we add a field coil in place of one of the magnets, we will get generated current which some argue is BEMF.

A mod that I will give you later, reduced the overall BEMF significantly enabling the motor to run on reduced voltage when compared to what it will run on without the mod. If you have not made it a pulse motor you will really have to drop the voltage to maybe 2 or 3 volts.

I suggest making it a pulse motor first because you can always add the extra windings later to make it more conventional. Even with all the coils fitted it does pulse but the pulses overlap causing a ripple effect and this is quite powerful as shown in the video.

A good motor to modify is a four pole motor, ie four field poles, this makes the modifications simpler. Its even easier if it has field coils instead of magnets.

With 10 slots on the armature you can get one coil (two pulses per rev) and could use a 10 segment armature, with 12 slots you can get two coils (four pulses per rev) but you would need a commutator with 24 segments. Its not ideal as you have six segments for each pulse but close enough. The more pulses per rev you have the more smooth and powerful the motor.

At the end of the first three parts you will have a motor with a built in generator that has an energy recovery circuit. If you go on to do the mods I am hinting about it will work in a completely different way and make you think about motors differently.

[BroMikey]

Hate Message

Sorry I entered into this discussion with you (mbrownn). You are obviously not capable of playing in reality or having a conversation about the subject material at hand and you have cost everyone the opportunity to learn the positive points of a B field motor.

I will no longer post in this thread.

You mBrownn should hook up with BroMikey. YOu guys are 2 peas in a pod and deserve each other.

Thanks
Matt

Yeah BROWN STICK WITH ME (BroMikey) I promise to treat you like a human being. Shame on you Matthew for beating the slaves. May us sub-species now continue our adventure without further harassment?

Mike