Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[bistander]

V & I on scope

If I understand you correctly, shunt resistor should have one terminal as a common ground by connecting to Scope probes ground and PSU negative, as the other terminal from shunt resistor to one Output terminal?
To then add the second channel Probe trace to the other resistor terminal and also to the other output terminal?

Understood correct?

Hi Ufo,

Here's a diagram:



So channel A is current (measuring millivolts across the shunt) and channel B is voltage. The source, represented by the circle with sinewave in that diagram, is your power supply (PSU). The ground is the PSU negative terminal. Ground is common between channels A & B.

If for your test condition the scope shows straight lines (DC) then note the magnitude and check against digital meters on the PSU. If those match then you can move the scope to the output and do a similar measurement.

Hope that clears it up.

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Yeah, 2 channels are needed. Use a common ground on the two, say power supply negative. Then the V trace probe goes on power supply positive. You have a current viewing resistor connected to power supply negative and then to the device being tested. Connect the other probe to the shunt on the connection to the test subject.

If I understand you correctly, shunt resistor should have one terminal as a common ground by connecting to Scope probes ground and PSU negative, as the other terminal from shunt resistor to one Output terminal?
To then add the second channel Probe trace to the other resistor terminal and also to the other output terminal?

Understood correct?

Current viewing resistor is often called a meter shunt or just "shunt". They are available in low resistance (milli or micro ohms) such that the current range of intetest is measured in millivolts. Your scope can surely handle millivolts. A reasonable shunt for this test might be one rated at 50mV for 10A. So when the scope shows 5mV it is reading 1A. 10mV is 2A, 20mV is 4A and so on.

I believe I have one...have to look for it.

I fail to see how you get ~4V on a short circuit. Try the shunt across the output. That will keep it essentially to zero (millivolts).

Regards,

bi

Bistander, even if I literally joint both output terminals wire to wire...I get the same results.

As the Scope trace on output will not go flat line either...but similar to a square wave above zero.

EDIT 1: Only way I could understand this...is that GENERATING COILS keeps sourcing A VOLTAGE with the Max Surge Amps, no matter if short circuited.

If we do that on a battery...well, besides all the heat and sparks...it will drop to zero...as in any other CONSTANT AND LIMITED SOURCE OF POWER.

Other interesting result is that coils will not even get warm by shorting them out...Iron Core will get warm... though.

Amp meters say this short test could not go above 15 minutes at 10 Amps...guess it will blow their fuse.


Regards



Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Ufo,

Don't worry about fluctuations in the thousandths decimal place and even a bit in the hundredths is acceptable.

Got to go.... later.

bi

[bistander]

I need a bit of info here, please, How can the scope show currents (Amps) in either Input or Output?

I believe have to use a specific resistor of 100 ohms or something like?

Yeah, 2 channels are needed. Use a common ground on the two, say power supply negative. Then the V trace probe goes on power supply positive. You have a current viewing resistor connected to power supply negative and then to the device being tested. Connect the other probe to the shunt on the connection to the test subject.

Current viewing resistor is often called a meter shunt or just "shunt". They are available in low resistance (milli or micro ohms) such that the current range of intetest is measured in millivolts. Your scope can surely handle millivolts. A reasonable shunt for this test might be one rated at 50mV for 10A. So when the scope shows 5mV it is reading 1A. 10mV is 2A, 20mV is 4A and so on.

I fail to see how you get ~4V on a short circuit. Try the shunt across the output. That will keep it essentially to zero (millivolts).

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

A valid test in my mind for a device with only electrical inputs and outputs is, for all conditions:

Input Volts,
Input Amperes,
Scope shot of Volts and Amps (so we can tell if phase shift enters into power calculation),

Output Volts,
Output Amperes,
Scope shot of Volts & Amps.

All of the above simultaneously.

Hello Bistander,

I need a bit of info here, please, How can the scope show currents (Amps) in either Input or Output?

I believe have to use a specific resistor of 100 ohms or something like?

Simultaneity of I/O Readings : Now, one problem here...I only have one Scope and it only have two channels...to give all four parameters simultaneously that's impossible.

No load: should be zero amperes output (=open circuit output terminals).

Correct.

Loaded conditions: place resistor (used as load) across output terminals. Output current is Amps thru resistor and output Volts is measured across the resistor terminals.

I have used a small automotive bulb (1157) from the high amps filament (shorter and thicker tungsten) as a resistor, since at the same time it shows brightness gain as I speed up rotary switch...I have also used a Headlamp Bulb which requires also higher amperage to lit up.

Short circuit: should imply zero output voltage. Placing an ammeter across output terminals will essentially satisfy zero output volts due to negligible ammeter resistance. If a clamp style ammeter is used, short output terminals with a short large gauge copper wire and clamp around it.

It should imply zero voltage on a complete short of the output terminals right?...that's exactly what I thought...however, guess what?...it don't go to zero at all, as a matter of fact with latest tests it shows around 4.23 - 4.40 Volts DC at FULL SHORT from amp meter.

I have also used my EXTECH Clamp for AC and DC Amps right at one of the coil wires...identical results as the inline meter...

As with any test, date, time, temperature, personnel, place and other pertinent information should be noted.

Should be good for starters.

bi

Correct

PS. Note the power used by any additional devices contributing to the function of the test subject (like a motor turning a switching commutator).

Of course, they would be shown, however, we would be considering only for calculations here the full Input from the PSU feeding the Exciter Coils versus the Full Output from Output Coils correct?

On this testings am using Three PSU's...

#1- The Linear one with analog meters backed up by two digital EXTECH showing Volts-Amps feeds the Exciting Coils via brush-commutator on rotary switch.

#2- The Rotary switch motor is fed by a switching PSU and spends at full speed around 27.0 V and like 0.8 Amps

#3- The brushless cooling fan for the small motor and switch assy (brushes-commutator, etc) uses the third PSU and uses like 11.V and 0.08 amps.

The last two PSU's (#2,#3) are steady at those wattage values during operation.

PPS. Take measurements in a steady-state to eliminate dealing with transients. Simply insure the inputs and outputs remain unchanged for several seconds before and after the readings.

My EXTECH Meters go all the way to the 0.000 decimals, or the mills values...and sorry Bistander but the decimals are never steady during operation for either volts nor amps...However, if we are talking about the main number in front of the point (solid or whole number >1)...yes, I understand what you mean.

As also the following decimal right after the point does not fluctuate much unless when it changes from 1.499 to 1.500


Thanks and regards



Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Test measurements

@ Bistander and Citfta,

Now, since I got both of you here...I would like to ask some questions as how do you want me to FILM and SET the Circuit for the measuring of Volts and Amps IN versus Volts and Amps OUT from my device?

For example:

If I have a NO LOAD test, I could read FULL VOLTAGE OUT, plus FULL VOLT/AMPS INPUT (understanding at operating frequency)...BUT as I add a LOAD, Out Voltage Drops as OUT Amp meter will show a measure...As INPUT Voltage will also drop, while I keep IN amps steady by current limiting at PSU.

So, which measurements are the FINAL here?

Say I brake this TESTING into three stages:

NO LOAD FULL OPERATING FREQUENCY

1- Full Volts/Amps Input Readout

2- PLUS ONLY Output Voltage. (no load, no output amps)


LOADED OUTPUT AT FULL OPERATING FREQ.

1- INPUT Volts DROPS PLUS STEADY AMPS by CL

2- OUTPUT Volts DROPS and Amps could be read.


FULL SHORT CIRCUIT AT OUTPUT TERMINALS

By shorting out the generating coils terminals with the AMP METER it should show what I call "MAX SURGE AMPS"...Am I correct here guys?...while Voltage -of course- drops, but NEVER to zero nor negative values...


Thanks in advance


Regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1: Is understandable that I would be using a Diode Bridge at Output to convert to DC Volts-Amps, since PSU is delivering DC V and Amps at Input.

Hi Ufo,

A valid test in my mind for a device with only electrical inputs and outputs is, for all conditions:

Input Volts,
Input Amperes,
Scope shot of Volts and Amps (so we can tell if phase shift enters into power calculation),

Output Volts,
Output Amperes,
Scope shot of Volts & Amps.

All of the above simultaneously.

No load: should be zero amperes output (=open circuit output terminals).

Loaded conditions: place resistor (used as load) across output terminals. Output current is Amps thru resistor and output Volts is measured across the resistor terminals.

Short circuit: should imply zero output voltage. Placing an ammeter across output terminals will essentially satisfy zero output volts due to negligible ammeter resistance. If a clamp style ammeter is used, short output terminals with a short large gauge copper wire and clamp around it.

As with any test, date, time, temperature, personnel, place and other pertinent information should be noted.

Should be good for starters.

bi

PS. Note the power used by any additional devices contributing to the function of the test subject (like a motor turning a switching commutator).

PPS. Take measurements in a steady-state to eliminate dealing with transients. Simply insure the inputs and outputs remain unchanged for several seconds before and after the readings.

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

The explanation lies in the magnetic circuit and relationship of flux to mmf and reluctance. In your example the mmf remains the same but return path reluctance goes up.

bi

YES!!...Bistander...You are BRILLIANT friend!!, no matter what they say about you...

It EXACTLY bolts down to the return path of the coils, and as a matter of fact, my BEST set -on Generating Coils- is based on very short return paths coils, while building up higher layers (coil thickness I call it, but it could be coil height)...similar to PANCAKE COILS but with more than just one turn per layer, say like 10 to 15 turns of 16 awg.

I am also using steel strips (22 gauge) of about same length of those short coils, insulated by tape, rolled as a "clock spring" in between each coil or at "strategic positions" like center and extremes of core...they act as small magnetic field amplifiers between coils...

However, I would like to add (and I believe Elcheapo brought this issue a bit back) about core geometries versus coil geometry...if the coil geometry does not satisfy the core amount of mass for either ways...as either being too small or too big...it will not do the job to build the required field either.

If coil is too small for a big amount of steel...field would be absorbed by iron mass with very little or none Spatial projection outwards...and so, if coil is too big for too small mass of iron...then Field would not have the required strength.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply

...
At the same token...IF My Geometry is TOO LONG and TOO SMALL in COIL THICKNESS...even with FULL POWER Magnetic Field would be very weak, why? because of area of Field distribution ALONG A LONGER IRON CORE REQUIRED...and guess what?...Both, working (Shorter Core) and not working (Longer Core) same core thickness Geometries would have EXACTLY SAME number of turns......Please explain that one

...

Hi Ufo,

The explanation lies in the magnetic circuit and relationship of flux to mmf and reluctance. In your example the mmf remains the same but return path reluctance goes up.

And citfta,

Yes. I assumed (without stating so) that frequnecy was constant.

Regards to both of you,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

@ Bistander and Citfta

@ Bistander and Citfta,

Now, since I got both of you here...I would like to ask some questions as how do you want me to FILM and SET the Circuit for the measuring of Volts and Amps IN versus Volts and Amps OUT from my device?

For example:

If I have a NO LOAD test, I could read FULL VOLTAGE OUT, plus FULL VOLT/AMPS INPUT (understanding at operating frequency)...BUT as I add a LOAD, Out Voltage Drops as OUT Amp meter will show a measure...As INPUT Voltage will also drop, while I keep IN amps steady by current limiting at PSU.

So, which measurements are the FINAL here?

Say I brake this TESTING into three stages:

NO LOAD FULL OPERATING FREQUENCY

1- Full Volts/Amps Input Readout

2- PLUS ONLY Output Voltage. (no load, no output amps)


LOADED OUTPUT AT FULL OPERATING FREQ.

1- INPUT Volts DROPS PLUS STEADY AMPS by CL

2- OUTPUT Volts DROPS and Amps could be read.


FULL SHORT CIRCUIT AT OUTPUT TERMINALS

By shorting out the generating coils terminals with the AMP METER it should show what I call "MAX SURGE AMPS"...Am I correct here guys?...while Voltage -of course- drops, but NEVER to zero nor negative values...


Thanks in advance


Regards


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1: Is understandable that I would be using a Diode Bridge at Output to convert to DC Volts-Amps, since PSU is delivering DC V and Amps at Input...and yes, forget about Diode losses here...they are considered "as disregarded" related to the output values...

[Ufopolitics]

Hello bi,

What you said is all very true although there is one other way to raise the voltage and lower the current without rewinding the coil. That is to raise the frequency to a few kilohertz. Then the inductive reactance would lower the current. I think this is what MM kept claiming the part G would do but of course the part G as built by some on this forum had much too small of inductive reactance at the frequency they were wanting to use.

The only real problem with raising the frequency is the inductive heating losses that will occur in the core unless the core is made of the proper materials.

So for all practical purposes the coils would need to be rewound to allow for higher voltage and lower current. Just thought I would throw that other idea in there for those that might want to see how inductive reactance works since some on this thread seem to be pretty confused about all that.

Later,
Carroll

Hello Carroll,

Definitively yes, whenever we increase speed (frequency) of the switching, amps will lower down...and it really do not need to go into the kilohertz to see that...for example, when I set current limit to 2.0 amps and start at low speed it would oscillate around those 2.0 amps...However, when I increase speed I have to keep rising amps to reach the 1.5 levels, because it tends to go below one amp.

The point here is that I need to reach the operating speed (@60Hz) to then set the current limiting on PSU that I want to work with.

As, when I apply a load at output the PSU Voltage will definitively come down (Amps will remain the same by C.L.)...not much, but Voltage will, since it is the parameter which is set as Variable on PSU.

Very good point there Citfta!!


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.

Hello Bistander,

Honestly Bistander, at this stage, I really do not care what they say...

I know Voltage has been taken out -completely- from the Magnetic Equation of a Coil...However, no electromagnetic device will work with an UNBALANCED Voltage-Amperage either too low voltage and Higher amperage or the opposite...high Voltage with too low amps.

And yes, I know -as I understand as well- it is stated in Ohms Law...what I really do not understand is why voltage has been taken completely off magnetism.

Voltage and Amperage go by the hand (in a relation as Ohm's Law) anywhere we need a specific flow of ELECTRICITY.

Example: Get a BRUSHED Motor which requires 24V and 15 Amps MAX, then supply only 2 Volts with same amps or less (+/-15A)...Let's see if it barely makes an attempt to move.

He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

Regards,

bi

That depends upon his resistance at the coils, for example, my exciters are based on 386 ft of 16 gauge, and no matter what shape (Amps-Turns), it will ALWAYS HAVE around 2.0 Ohms Resistance. Which means I could make ANY GEOMETRY I like...and you must realize that Geometry dictates number of Turns. Resuming, I can add easily 50 Volts and up to four Amps to that Coil being pulsed by my mechanical rotary switch...AND it will BARELY get WARM.

At the same token...IF My Geometry is TOO LONG and TOO SMALL in COIL THICKNESS...even with FULL POWER Magnetic Field would be very weak, why? because of area of Field distribution ALONG A LONGER IRON CORE REQUIRED...and guess what?...Both, working (Shorter Core) and not working (Longer Core) same core thickness Geometries would have EXACTLY SAME number of turns......Please explain that one

Any Coil with too low resistance (say below One Amp) will NEVER allow Voltage to rise on ANY given PSU, Linear or Switched...HOWEVER, amps could go Sky High...But it would do ABSOLUTELY NADA...NO INDUCTION.

So, I highly recommend for those experimenting with Figuera...to use around 2.0 Ohms resistance on their exciters and basically if providing power with a Regulated Linear or Switched PSU...Only then you would see results.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[citfta]

The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.



He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

Regards,

bi

Hello bi,

What you said is all very true although there is one other way to raise the voltage and lower the current without rewinding the coil. That is to raise the frequency to a few kilohertz. Then the inductive reactance would lower the current. I think this is what MM kept claiming the part G would do but of course the part G as built by some on this forum had much too small of inductive reactance at the frequency they were wanting to use.

The only real problem with raising the frequency is the inductive heating losses that will occur in the core unless the core is made of the proper materials.

So for all practical purposes the coils would need to be rewound to allow for higher voltage and lower current. Just thought I would throw that other idea in there for those that might want to see how inductive reactance works since some on this thread seem to be pretty confused about all that.

Later,
Carroll

[bistander]

Coil current

...
I already had this discussion with Bistander before...Amps-Turns in the equation should relate to Voltage and NOT amps in the Ohms-Magnetic Equation he brought in.
...

The magnetic circuit sees current (in the mmf, Amp Turns), not voltage. The electric circuit needs the voltage to satisfy Ohm's Law considering the coil resistance.

...
...
Also, try lowering your Amps and increasing Voltage...say around 30V and like 4-6 amps total from source. Play with different combination ratios...

He would have to rewind the coil to alter the current and voltage as you request, or perhaps change the temperature (but his wire insulation would fail before resistance got high enough to take 30V/5A).

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hi UFO,

But you still think that coils using a higher voltage will move that spatial
field better.
The space between the coils is strictly magnetic and not movable by any voltage. But don't worry UFO, I'll be working on some method to prove it for you.

Hello Elcheapo,

I never said that Higher Voltage ALONE will move Field better.

Applying it to your case (your set up) friend, yes, you get a very strong field by using 12 amps...but then, using 12 volts to displace that HEAVY AMPS FIELD around, from one end of coil to the other Terminal, or from side to side of core...12V is NOT ENOUGH Voltage.
Voltage is in charge to pressurize, (push-pull) that amp volume flow across conductor LENGTH.

The only thing we need to balance out Voltage and Amperage is ohms law.

I already had this discussion with Bistander before...Amps-Turns in the equation should relate to Voltage and NOT amps in the Ohms-Magnetic Equation he brought in.

If I had gotten even 1/2 a volt, I would be thinking, well maybe I need a stronger magnetic field but no, zero volts got me to realize that because there was no change in current or emf then that was the reason and something else was necessary.
Had this same problem last September sometime when using larger 5" long coils wound with #14: Secondary coil I think was 2" long. Got zero.
I mentioned it to MM and he said "well you won't get anything out if you have no change in current or voltage".
Ya, we've all become brain-washed over the years and have a hard time to
change our way of thinking.

The Variation of Volts-Amps ONLY needs to take place at each of the exciting coils...Source should be the same at all time. Maybe small variations in milli units.

In the mean time if you want to use your resistor switching system, be sure to get those nichrome resistors set up so there is no change in total amps and emf. Then when I change mine using TWO pickup coils which I think will work then you can do the same.

I am no longer using resistors at all...that was just a Phase of Experiments, done deal by now.

Very few real experimenters on this thread except for you, so always glad to hear from you, even if we don't agree.

Cheers
Elcheapo

True and agree, same here Elcheapo, hopefully many more will join in once we put up a working device up front...no matter how many things have been changed around it...

Couple of suggestion on your setup:

Could you either repeat or expand (increase) the ON TIME AT PEAK LIMITS for each signal? (meaning Top and Bottom)...this will give EXPANDING Field a bit more time to DEVELOP while the Low one stays also more time on Minimal RETRACTION stage.

Also, try lowering your Amps and increasing Voltage...say around 30V and like 4-6 amps total from source. Play with different combination ratios...


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Elcheapo]

Hi UFO,

You are wrong as not having a strong field anymore if you cut amperage and increase voltage, let me example that

Yes, that was my mistake.
We need to use the ampere-turns formula to compare field strength of
different coils. And notice that in every reference to this formula 'volts" is never mentioned. It's only applied in ohms law to get the right amount of current and then it's job is done.

But you still think that coils using a higher voltage will move that spatial
field better.
The space between the coils is strictly magnetic and not movable by any voltage. But don't worry UFO, I'll be working on some method to prove it for you.

Voltage and Amperage must be BALANCED OUT for every different application...

The only thing we need to balance out Voltage and Amperage is ohms law.

I am pretty sure there should be some induction there...very small because of the way you are doing it...but there MUST BE some flow...millivolts-milliamps...but some.

If I had gotten even 1/2 a volt, I would be thinking, well maybe I need a stronger magnetic field but no, zero volts got me to realize that because there was no change in current or emf then that was the reason and something else was necessary.
Had this same problem last September sometime when using larger 5" long coils wound with #14: Secondary coil I think was 2" long. Got zero.
I mentioned it to MM and he said "well you won't get anything out if you have no change in current or voltage".
Ya, we've all become brain-washed over the years and have a hard time to
change our way of thinking.
In the mean time if you want to use your resistor switching system, be sure to get those nichrome resistors set up so there is no change in total amps and emf. Then when I change mine using TWO pickup coils which I think will work then you can do the same.
Very few real experimenters on this thread except for you, so always glad to hear from you, even if we don't agree.

Cheers
Elcheapo