Bible

[muttdogg]

Stairway to heaven

To Al, wpage, and Sam,
There you go again. Never mind what I actually wrote, or the parts that only make sense if you are ready to die. I mean dead, not sorta. How many of you have prayed for acceptance to heaven from a non-believer? A dog, or cat?
Why should heaven be a place where only one door is open? Really would screw up any idea of a loving G-D. Qoute, quote, quote, but no sense. Now, please, re-read what I wrote, then show why YOU want only the people following in the footsteps of your agreed upon path to go to heaven. No quotes. Are Bhuddists barred from heaven? Eskimos? Jews? Muslims? Lutherans? Methodists? Austrailians? Well Australians I can understand.
How about Czechs, Poles, Gypsies, Catholics, Jews, Greeks, Homos, Retards, the infirm, the too old, or maybe any that your religion doesn't follow.
Oh, that would be Nazi Germany, or may be Stalinist Russia.

[ANTIQUER]

To Al, wpage, and Sam,
There you go again. Never mind what I actually wrote, or the parts that only make sense if you are ready to die. I mean dead, not sorta. How many of you have prayed for acceptance to heaven from a non-believer? A dog, or cat?
Why should heaven be a place where only one door is open? Really would screw up any idea of a loving G-D. Qoute, quote, quote, but no sense. Now, please, re-read what I wrote, then show why YOU want only the people following in the footsteps of your agreed upon path to go to heaven. No quotes. Are Bhuddists barred from heaven? Eskimos? Jews? Muslims? Lutherans? Methodists? Austrailians? Well Australians I can understand.
How about Czechs, Poles, Gypsies, Catholics, Jews, Greeks, Homos, Retards, the infirm, the too old, or maybe any that your religion doesn't follow.
Oh, that would be Nazi Germany, or may be Stalinist Russia.

Hey dan;

I was sure I would get a response from you after my last post. However, I am beginning to wonder if you read, write, and understand English?Page, Sam, and I have already stated what we believe (although we are still discussing our different beliefs), why and what sources we used to form our beliefs. You continue to ask questions Page and I have answered and told where we got them from. Whether our sources are Biblical or secular, you declare them wrong, ignore them, or change the subject. So I ask you again, what are your SPECIFIC beliefs, and WHAT DO YOU BASE THEM ON?

I will answer again things you have brought up here. No, I don't pray for dogs or cats as they don't have a soul. Already explained that to Sam. If you mean do I ask a Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu, for example, to pray for me to get into Heaven the answer is no. I know I am going there and as far as I know they don't pray for that. Isn't that strange?. If I am wrong, as you once posted, feel free to verbally pummel me mercilously.

I pray for all un-saved people everywhere that they may be saved so they can have the peace of Jesus in their heart while on this earth and join him in Heaven after physical death. Most Christian churches send missionaries to all the Earth to give any who will receive it the Gospel to this end. We don't want anyone going to Hell, just as God doesn't.
You claim anyone who figures out to follow Yeshua as you do is , shall we say, "safe", because a loving God will not send anyone to Hell. They only need to believe in God and "be good". Then why did Yeshua have to come and die? The Jews esp. had centuries of laws and teachings on how God wanted them to live. Most all religions teach morality, honesty, to love people, etc.="be good". And how are they to learn of Him except through a translation as, as I have said before, none of us were alive then and don't speak, read or write the languages of the New Testament or Old Testament periods? Do you read or write Coptic? That's what the Nag Hammadi scrolls(Agnostic Gospels) were written in.
I personally know people from every race, ethnic group(well, no Eskimos),country, and denomination you mention that are "born-again" Christians, even Australians. No one is barred from Heaven, they are given a choice. The message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is all inclusive, not exclusive. That's what those Agnostics you seem to like believed.

So, how do you deal with a searcher? What can you show them of your theology(yes, your belief is a theology whether you like the term or not) and the result of it besides "a warm and fuzzy feeling"? You have already said the tenets you learned as a child you disagree with (uh-oh, caught you in a contradiction), so what can you show a person to convince them you are right? Come on,any results will do. I've told you some of mine,and I could give you a lot more, so let's hear yours.

The comparison to Nazism and Communism is, to say the least, ridiclous. They are perfect examples of "the natural man" run amok. Christians, as I have stated to you several times, do not force their beliefs on anyone. We present it to them, discuss it, answer questions, etc. We plant and water the seeds of our faith, we pray for them; God through The Holy Spirit deals with their heart and hopefully they come to the right decision.

Look forward to next time, esp. some real answers.

Al

[muttdogg]

Answers,

Hey Al,
Of course I have answered, many times, you just do not like the answers. Anyone that believes in only one path to heaven, believes in the vengeful god. I do not.
As to the references to Nazis and Commies, yes, that is humanity run amok. That is why I put that reference in. That is how religions exclude, as did these governments,the non believers.
Of course I know what I preach is theology, however the common references, dictionaries, encyclopaedias, etal, give the impression of an accepted group-think.
I understand you reticence to examine your own beliefs, that's why I am here. To help you on your path to heaven, or at least not New Jersey.
Before anyone screams at you, the Nag Hammadi texts are Gnostic not Agnostic. You also reference a gospel of Jesus Christ, which would be part of the Gnostic texts. I know you were just making typos.
As far as the warm and fuzzy feeling towards G-D? well, how else is one supposed to act to a loving G-D?
Lastly I was raised Catholic, as soon as I got away from the damnation of all non-believers of that, or any religion, I got REAL religion.
Happy motoring
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
Of course I have answered, many times, you just do not like the answers. Anyone that believes in only one path to heaven, believes in the vengeful god. I do not.
As to the references to Nazis and Commies, yes, that is humanity run amok. That is why I put that reference in. That is how religions exclude, as did these governments,the non believers.
Of course I know what I preach is theology, however the common references, dictionaries, encyclopaedias, etal, give the impression of an accepted group-think.
I understand you reticence to examine your own beliefs, that's why I am here. To help you on your path to heaven, or at least not New Jersey.
Before anyone screams at you, the Nag Hammadi texts are Gnostic not Agnostic. You also reference a gospel of Jesus Christ, which would be part of the Gnostic texts. I know you were just making typos.
As far as the warm and fuzzy feeling towards G-D? well, how else is one supposed to act to a loving G-D?
Lastly I was raised Catholic, as soon as I got away from the damnation of all non-believers of that, or any religion, I got REAL religion.
Happy motoring
Dan

Hey Dan;

Sorry for the typo. I try to proofread, but it was late and I missed that one. As I said before glad you got out of Catholicism. Guess you figured out it's a really twisted version of what Jesus taught, but I think you have "jumped from the frying pan into the fire."
How is it you catch the typo and miss the important stuff? I asked you a question about Yeshua, no answer. I asked how you learned what you believe about him or how you read the gnostic writings as you don't read the languages they were written in. no answer. Did you get them in a dream or did you kill a goat and read the entrails? (ROFL) I get your basic idea that God sends no one to Hell, that all organized religion is enslaving people and not telling the truth (which apparently has been revealed only to you and a select group you "converted" to your way of thinking), but where did you get these ideas?
The "warm and fuzzy" feeling you can get from a good movie, helping an old lady across the street, feeding the homeless, etc. is shallow compared to what you feel when you ask Jesus for forgiveness, accept his sacrifice, and the Holy Spirit comes into you. It changes your basic nature and you never forget it.


So,I try to answer all of your questions/comments in detail. How about reading paragraphs 1 and 4 of my last post and answer mine?

Al

[muttdogg]

Specific beliefs

Hey Al,
What are my specfic beliefs? Simple, I believe in a loving god. If G-D loves everyone, the way away from heaven is to not love him. What's so difficult about that? He loves you, you love him, simple. All may share his love, ALL.
G-D is in all of us, not just the pious. Not loving G-D means not loving your fellow man, or woman.
Now, how does being able to recite certain verses from a book qualify you to have a seat in heaven? And, yes you are trying to convert those in disagreement with your religious beliefs. You just will not admit it. Me? I only want everyone to have G-D's love, nothing more.
I, for one, will never judge you for anything else, except for your actions.
Your exclusionary ideas only get you to one place. The reason this thread was started in the first place. Hell.
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
What are my specfic beliefs? Simple, I believe in a loving god. If G-D loves everyone, the way away from heaven is to not love him. What's so difficult about that? He loves you, you love him, simple. All may share his love, ALL.
G-D is in all of us, not just the pious. Not loving G-D means not loving your fellow man, or woman.
Now, how does being able to recite certain verses from a book qualify you to have a seat in heaven? And, yes you are trying to convert those in disagreement with your religious beliefs. You just will not admit it. Me? I only want everyone to have G-D's love, nothing more.
I, for one, will never judge you for anything else, except for your actions.
Your exclusionary ideas only get you to one place. The reason this thread was started in the first place. Hell.
Dan

Ah,yes,Dan, and yet another rant.

I told you I got what you believe, you don't have to keep repeating it. I asked where you got whatever it was that you used to arrive at your belief and a specific question about Yeshua. Still no answer. Read those 2 paragraphs again carefully. Answer the questions without repeating what I already know, as I told you then.

If you look back a few posts I told you I was hoping these discussions might change your way of thinking and why, so there's nothing to admit to now. I said discussions. In that last post I told you Christians don't try to force our beliefs on anyone, just give them the info. as to why we believe it and where we got our basis for our view. I ask you to do the same but you never answer.

My beliefs are hardly exclusionary, as I again pointed out in the last posting. I believe the thousands of people coming to Jesus worldwide every week attest to that. How many coming to your point of view?

I also told you I don't judge you, God will, as He will all of us. You are free to believe what you want, as did all the people that died and went to Hell this week. I know where I'm going and that's not it.



Look forward to next time and, I hope, some real answers.

Al

[wpage]

The Bible?

This thread was called the Bible.


For those who choose to read it and digest it is speaks for itself...

-The original and permanent #1 best seller of all time.

-The Dream the Vision and Plan as unfolded over time from start to finish.

So what are we getting off thread onto?

-The unerring word of God.

Someones interpretations.

Start a new thread on it.

W

[muttdogg]

Okay

To all,
I do not believe the bible is the word of G-D. I do not believe Jesus is anything more that a rabbi teaching the word of man. A good man. For me, Jesus didn't need to be a superhero. Just a good man.
The virgin birth, the ressurection, the miracles. None need to be told in order for a person to find a path to heaven.
A few kernels of Yeshua's truth, or any truths come out. Maybe one of my failings in this post is that I do not cite the writer, paragraph and line, so here I go, as best as I can. "if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move a mountain." When some lady had a problem, she squirmed her way towards Yeshua, just to touch his robe, and was healed, or whatever. Yeshua turned to her and said he did nothing, her faith in G-D healed her.
You see? G-D loves you unconditionally. You must show your love for him.
Any thought that any Great Being, which some call G-D, or anything else, needs you, or anyone else, to believe in an only path, to divine glory, or what ever the "soul" goes to after death, is not what Jesus, or Yeshua taught. Nor any of the great prophets said.
There is another one I just thought of. Something like this: only through our father(meaning G-D) may you go to heaven.
Now, where did I get this? Seems to be an irrelevant question, but here goes. As I've said before, figured it out on my own. It is easy: Does it hurt? Don't do it. Does it hurt someone else? Don't do it. Seems simple enough.
These "rants', as they are so-called, are arguements. Al, the reason I pointed out the typos, and did not "answer" your question was I want to continue arguing the point, which I see no reason to bring up the superhero business about Jesus. Or, godlike qualities. What have you.
And, by the way, if this post is ever about converting anyone then I will merrily stop posting. It is about how our ideas reflect the interest in each of us, no matter what our individual beliefs.
Born 1956, Gary, Indiana. Only have been out of the country once, in Canada, for about 5 minutes.
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

To all,
I do not believe the bible is the word of G-D. I do not believe Jesus is anything more that a rabbi teaching the word of man. A good man. For me, Jesus didn't need to be a superhero. Just a good man.
The virgin birth, the ressurection, the miracles. None need to be told in order for a person to find a path to heaven.
A few kernels of Yeshua's truth, or any truths come out. Maybe one of my failings in this post is that I do not cite the writer, paragraph and line, so here I go, as best as I can. "if you had the faith of a mustard seed you could move a mountain." When some lady had a problem, she squirmed her way towards Yeshua, just to touch his robe, and was healed, or whatever. Yeshua turned to her and said he did nothing, her faith in G-D healed her.
You see? G-D loves you unconditionally. You must show your love for him.
Any thought that any Great Being, which some call G-D, or anything else, needs you, or anyone else, to believe in an only path, to divine glory, or what ever the "soul" goes to after death, is not what Jesus, or Yeshua taught. Nor any of the great prophets said.
There is another one I just thought of. Something like this: only through our father(meaning G-D) may you go to heaven.
Now, where did I get this? Seems to be an irrelevant question, but here goes. As I've said before, figured it out on my own. It is easy: Does it hurt? Don't do it. Does it hurt someone else? Don't do it. Seems simple enough.
These "rants', as they are so-called, are arguements. Al, the reason I pointed out the typos, and did not "answer" your question was I want to continue arguing the point, which I see no reason to bring up the superhero business about Jesus. Or, godlike qualities. What have you.
And, by the way, if this post is ever about converting anyone then I will merrily stop posting. It is about how our ideas reflect the interest in each of us, no matter what our individual beliefs.
Born 1956, Gary, Indiana. Only have been out of the country once, in Canada, for about 5 minutes.
Dan

Hey Dan;

Hoorraayy!!! Finally some answers to discuss.
First, it looks like you haven't read any of the New Testament for awhile, so might I suggest you get one that is a red letter edition as it's easier to follow. Even better, get a Schofield Reference Edition. His notes are a big help in understanding what's going on. You can always evaluate them for yourself and decide if he's correct or not.

It's o.k. if you don't remember the exact place where you read stuff, or exactly where to find it, I'll find it for you . My memory isn't as good as it used to be either.

Second, read the whole passage where you find something. a single verse is usually out of context if cited by itself.

Now to your verses; The 1st. one appears in Matt. 17:4-21, Mark 9:14-29 and Luke 9:37-43. A man has brought his child to Jesus after his disciples had been unable to cast out a demon which had possessed the child. Jesus cast out the demon and his disciples asked why they had been unable to do so.He answered "Because of your unbelief; verily I say unto you , If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, Ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. Howbeit, this kind goeth not but by prayer and fasting."
In the entire event there is no mention of belief in anyone other than Jesus. He never says" believe in God---", he has just done a miracle and says to believe in him. He also chastizes them for their lack of faith in him. Mark 9:23-24 is even clearer:"Jesus said unto him (the child's father) "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth." And straightway the father of the child cried out , and said with tears, Lord, I believe: help thou mine unbelief." He did not have to ask "God help me" as he recognized Jesus as God and said "Lord, I believe, help THOU mine unbelief."

The second event you cite is in Matt.9:18-22, Mark 5:22-43 and Luke 8:41-36. Here a certain ruler of the synagog named Jarius has come to ask Jesus to raise his dead daughter.(Matthew says he fell at Jesus feet and worshipped him. Why would a ruler of a Jewish synagogue worship him if he did not believe he was God?) As they were going to the man's house a woman who had been very ill for 12 years came up behind him Mark. 5;27-28 says"When she had heard of Jesus, came in the press behind, and touched his garment. For she said, "if I may but touch his clothes, I shall be whole". In vs. 29 she is healed. In vs. 30 "And Jesus, immediatelyknowing that virtue(power) had gone out of him, turned around in the press and said, "Who touched my clothes?" Skip to vs. 34. "And he said unto her, Daughter, thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace , and be whole of thy plague."
Notice she was healed before Jesus ever addressed her by the power that went out of him. Again, she had heard something about Jesus that led her to believe he could heal her and believed it. She believed in Jesus to heal her and that belief cured her. No separate mention of God anywhere, it's all about and by Jesus. Nowhere does Jesus say he had done nothing.
The very passages you cite dis-prove your claim Jesus was only " a good man."
Your thought about "only through our father may you go to heaven" is to vague to pin down. Try to remember it more distinctly for next time.

Your reply about why you did not answer me makes no sense.Your reply, as shown above, should be the basis of our discussions, or arguments if you prefer. That's the title of this thread and why we are here.

I have some more thoughts but it's been a long day. Time for bed so until next time, go with God.

Al.

[Samemf]

Muttdog

Hi
jesus is definately more than just a rabbi ,
rabbi's , priests , bishops, and even scholars in islam are men of faith that
have studied and teacher their faiths .
However jesus is a mighty prohet of god and a sign sent unto mankind and is even described as will return in the koran as well as the bible i beleive .

Prophets of God are men yes , but are chosen by God to be sent on specific missions to warn the people and show them the right path .

Miricales , yes they are , but nothing can be done of their own self , these miricles are given to them by god not of their own self .
Even jesus said , when the deciples asked him how he is performing these miricles , he says " I bymyself can don Nothing without the father in heaven , all power is given unto me . Glory be to God for giving such power unto men .

ie did moses open the sea , or did God give him this miricale etc ..

You need to make a distinction between men of GOD and Prophets of God , They deserve our respect and we cannot reject them .

The propblem begins when we start to worship other than god , ie his prophets , some I beleive worship the pope even , or their actions are pretty close to it .
There is a saying of the last prophet of God Mohammad which I just read which is "Do not do to me what the christians did to jesus , God sent him to the people to warn them and give them the good news (gospel) but they woreshipped him as a God "


As I said before If anything live by these rules
Recognise there is a creator of the heavens and earth
GOD
woreship none other than him ,
Dont attribute partners with god .
beleive in the angels
beleive in heaven and hell
beleif in the last day , ie judgement day
be righteous , enjoin on what is good and repent from your sins .

To repent your relationship with God is your own ,
sit by yourself and if one has sinned , speak to god yourself .
God forgive me , help me come back to the right path

Even the prayer taught by jesus is perfect !

Sam

[muttdogg]

Hooray!

Hey Al,
Read Mark 5-34, Luke8-48, and Matthew 9-21&22. Nowhere does Jesus (I'll use his Greek name to avoid confusion) say faith through him, Jesus.
Try Matthew 9-28-29: And when he had come into the house, the blind men came to him. And Jesus said to them," Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to him, Yes, Lord." 20 Then he touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."
Can't see faith in Jesus is anywhere, only faith. I could go on and on, but the vengeful god only wants the converts, not the knowledgable.
Try Luke 12-1 through 59. O you of little faith. The Ten Commandments played out for the masses. Notice the difference between He, and Him? Probably not.
Take your time, Al, tired minds make bad decisions- Jules Verne.
No one needs their religion to have a superhero, unless they do not want to do the work themselves.
As always, yours in arguementative mode,
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
Read Mark 5-34, Luke8-48, and Matthew 9-21&22. Nowhere does Jesus (I'll use his Greek name to avoid confusion) say faith through him, Jesus.
Try Matthew 9-28-29: And when he had come into the house, the blind men came to him. And Jesus said to them," Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to him, Yes, Lord." 20 Then he touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."
Can't see faith in Jesus is anywhere, only faith. I could go on and on, but the vengeful god only wants the converts, not the knowledgable.
Try Luke 12-1 through 59. O you of little faith. The Ten Commandments played out for the masses. Notice the difference between He, and Him? Probably not.
Take your time, Al, tired minds make bad decisions- Jules Verne.
No one needs their religion to have a superhero, unless they do not want to do the work themselves.
As always, yours in arguementative mode,
Dan

Hey Dan;

I referenced those 3 verses for you in my last posting and the ENTIRE passage you are extracting them from. As I said then, you cannot "cherry pick" verses and twist them out of context to prove or suit your opinion.Read II Peter 3:15-18, esp. vs. 18 (But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. To him be glory both now and forever.")Neither Aa"good man" nor a phrophet can save you. Try reading my post again. See what was really going on, as I explained?

As to the blind men in Matt. 9:28-29 read it correctly. Jesus said"Do you believe that I AM ABLE to do this? They said to him,"YES, LORD." Then he touched their eyes, saying"According to your faith (IN HIM) let it be to you."
Jesus asked them did they believe HE could heal them, did they have faith in HIM, not "do you believe God can heal you?" They answered "Yes, LORD." Then he healed them because they had expressed their faith in him by addressing him as "Lord". Why do you think they came to him to begin with? Same reason the sick woman did in vs. 20. Same faith in Jesus, same result.

By the way, notice in both of these miracles he simply healed them, he did not ask for, pray for, or mention God's help. Didn't have to, he was and is God and most people around him by then knew it, just as the synagogue ruler Jarius did when he asked for his daughter to be raised from the dead. Also, it would be redundant for God to ask for his own help.

As for Luke 12:1-59 I think you meant some other passage as there is no phrase there about hypocrites or faith, and no "he" or "him" to compare. Get back to me on that.
But as long as we're there look at vs. 8-9. How and why would a "good man" confess you or not before angels? I'll tell you. He's talking about after his resurrection and at one of the two final judgements of men mentioned in Revelations and elsewhere where he is the final advocate for or against you. Only THE Son of God can do that.

As for "doing the work yourself" to get into heaven, it won't work. I already told you why in posting #88. You cannot work your way into heaven, it is a gift of God paid for by Jesus's death on the cross. You have to use the sin offering God wants. That's why he rejected Cain's offering "of the ground" clear back in Genesis 4:1-5. God accepted the correct offering from Abel which made Cain mad, so he killed his brother out of jealousy and was cursed for it. The correct offering always involved the shedding of blood. Jesus' shed blood was the last, one-time and final offering for sin and is the only one acceptable to God.

Oh, one of the thoughts I had yesterday was I find it rather incongrous that you use "kernels" from the New Testament to form or support your opinion/beliefs while dis-claiming it as the Word of God and instead a work of man. Hmmm?

Well, at least you got the "argumentative mode" right! Keep it up, I welcome it. Until next time,

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey again Dan;

Thought you might like to see Matt. 9:28-29 in more modern english. Here's how The Amplified Bible (published 1965) reads. "When he reached the house and went in, the blind men came to him, and Jesus said to them,"Do you believe that I am able to do this?"They said to him, "Yes, Lord." Then he touched their eyes, saying "According to your faith and trust and reliance on the power invested in Me be it done to you"; and their eyes were opened." Notice ME is capitalized, as is God in any verse.

Matt. 11:27 is also pretty interesting. "All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father; and no one fully knows and accurately understands the Son except the Father, and no one fully knows and understands the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son deliberately wills to make Him known." Notice the cap's again.

Something more to ponder & argue about, eh?

Al

[muttdogg]

The cherry picker

Hey Al.
Cherry picking is not what I am saying. The subject of the sentence, or paragraph is the point. Please actually read the sentences, you might find the answers to your points. Nowhere does it say, "If you believe in some religion, or someone there,you will be saved." No, it says "your faith healed you." I am paraphrasing. You cherry-pick, citing the whole paragraph, as evidence of how some pitiful religion takes the entire concept, twists it into some wierd god worship, then explains how the masses should behave. You are smarter than that, I hope.
Yes, read the ten commandments for dummies.Luke: 12 1-59, see the contradictions. See the ten commandments, especially the one that says " no other one before me." I'm sorry, where did G-D say, "well, it's okay to idolize some guy that this religion says is my son"?
Oh, maybe you should listen to a former Roman lawyer, on the run because the Roman s wanted to prosecute him for crimes.
So, if the ten commandments are the way to live your life, how can you pray to any other than G-D? Unless your arguement is Jesus is G-D? But, then here is your problem, Jesus never preached he was the son of G-D. Your next post should be interesting, assuming you have read anything except this crap you call the good book. I know you haven't, would be silly of me to expect you to learn the whole story.
Get a backbone, all are welcome into heaven, as you will see when you are dead.
Dan

[muttdogg]

The Ten commandments

Hey all'
If anybody wants to pray through Jesus, to get to G-D, read Exodus 20, 1-17. Particularly the first commandment. However,, 1-7 should suffice, if the false and graven images are your cup of tea.
Dan