Bible

[muttdogg]

I am starting this thead in response to others that posted on "do you believe in hell?' Where posts were about the "good" book, or commonly known as "The Bible", were brought into play. Please let this thread be a free-for-all, concerning the writings, not anyone's beliefs, like that will happen, so, let's discuss, argue, and fight over our beliefs, tenets, ethos, or interpretations, and have a good time by all. Any other books, guidelines, religions, no matter how esoteric, or rooted in non-western, or- eastern thought are welcome.C'mon let's do it!
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

I am starting this thead in response to others that posted on "do you believe in hell?' Where posts were about the "good" book, or commonly known as "The Bible", were brought into play. Please let this thread be a free-for-all, concerning the writings, not anyone's beliefs, like that will happen, so, let's discuss, argue, and fight over our beliefs, tenets, ethos, or interpretations, and have a good time by all. Any other books, guidelines, religions, no matter how esoteric, or rooted in non-western, or- eastern thought are welcome.C'mon let's do it!
Dan

Great idea, Dan.

I'll start by asking where do you get your information as to Hell? The Bible is the only "book" that is anything other than the ideas of a man(or woman).

You might want to read "The Thumbprint of God". The author(whose name escapes me at the moment) is one of the top 10 astro-physists in the world. He relates how he came to the decision as a young man, and after reading every "holy book" of all major religions, that the bible was the only one NOT written from the viewpoint of a man. He gives examples, as when the 12 apostles were hiding in a locked room with the windows shut in fear that the Roman soldiers would find them, that the risen Jesus "suddenly appeared in the room." How?

Your turn. Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Great idea, Dan.

I'll start by asking where do you get your information as to Hell? The Bible is the only "book" that is anything other than the ideas of a man(or woman).

You might want to read "The Thumbprint of God". The author(whose name escapes me at the moment) is one of the top 10 astro-physists in the world. He relates how he came to the decision as a young man, and after reading every "holy book" of all major religions, that the bible was the only one NOT written from the viewpoint of a man. He gives examples, as when the 12 apostles were hiding in a locked room with the windows shut in fear that the Roman soldiers would find them, that the risen Jesus "suddenly appeared in the room." How?

Your turn. Al.

Hey Dan,

I just remembered the author is Hugh Rosss. You can google him or he is listed in Wikipedia.

Al

[ANTIQUER]

Whoops!

The book is "The Fingerprint Of God" & author is Hugh Ross.He is listed in Wikipedia along with a list of his other books. He also has or had a t.v. program.

Sorry, I'm really drained tonight.

Al.

[muttdogg]

hell

Hey Al.
Figured you would be the first to post since I didn't get a chance to last night.Appreciate your question. I will answer it this way; Figured it out on my own.
Foremost I haver to give credit to a Jewish friend of mine, a Karate disciple, and the Catholic church, for helping me foment my ideas of hell, or any other idea concerning religion. I use the term religion as an all-encompassing term, as an idea of a belief system. No disrespect intended.
As far as my beliefs go, I do not believe in organised religion. Nor do I believe another person, nominated by another person shall tell me how to interpret the good book, or any other teachings, so as to bend my free will to their inconcievably ignorant way of life.
One of the things I was taught by others during my life's journey,was how much religion was, and is, used by the powerful to convey to the meek, that somehow the world would be theirs if only they would follow the teachings, writings, or schools of the priests, senators,etc., . Not to mention kings and queens, earls,viscounts, and the such to raise the crops, form the steel, teach the ivy leaguers to continue the reign of whatever dumb-ass is in power.
So, you asked a question, hopefully I have answered. If not, round two.
Dan

[muttdogg]

Fingerprint of Gos

Hey Al,
I will look up Hugh Ross, But I think I have already either read his book, or a synopsis, as he sounds familar. As always thanks for the input. Learning in a vacuum is for fools.
Dan

[muttdogg]

Forgot

One other thing I am not a Da Vinci code nut, but my Jewish friends do explain very clearly that any Rabbi, or Teacher during that, or this time would be frowned upon if they weren't married, had kids orwere "working" on it. Not to say they would be ostracised, but a frown. Don't you dislike frowns? If any of our devout Judaic friends here on this thread would explain, it would be appreciated. Or, anybody else, for that matter.
Dan

[ANTIQUER]

One other thing I am not a Da Vinci code nut, but my Jewish friends do explain very clearly that any Rabbi, or Teacher during that, or this time would be frowned upon if they weren't married, had kids orwere "working" on it. Not to say they would be ostracised, but a frown. Don't you dislike frowns? If any of our devout Judaic friends here on this thread would explain, it would be appreciated. Or, anybody else, for that matter.
Dan

Hey Dan;

I could care less about "The DaVinci Code" either, it's a work of fiction & full of twisted ideas, not facts. I'm not sure what you are asking about Rabbi"s, How about re-phrasing?

I hope you do read Ross's book, it's really interesting if you skip some of the heavier scientific explanations, or maybe you would like that. Anyway, he is a good author, but dull as dishwater on his t.v. program. Rather odd, as when I have seen him as a guest on other shows he's pretty good. Must be the difference in formats.

I assume you are replying to where you got your info. on Hell. Don't mean to insult anyone, but seems your sources of info. would be pretty biased. Strangely, you have used sources apparently involved in at least 2 of the major organized religions of the world which you say you don't care for.

I have several Jewish friends who are also Christians. They are doubly blessed as they have inherited the things God promised to Abraham's descendants & the peace, joy and eternal life promised by Jesus. Remember all of the original 12 Apostles were Jewish as were most of their immediate disciples and they spread the Gospel through the entire world and most died martyr's deaths doing it. There are many Jewish evangelical pastors with ministries directed to bringing the gospel to un-saved Jews. You might consider finding and talking to one to at least get a different take on it.

I also studied martial arts at a Christian college I attended. Nothing wrong with training the body or mind God gave you, but that is a discipline, not a religion.

I don't like organized religion as practiced by the catholic church either; neither does Jesus. He constantly rebuked the priesthood of his day and ministered to the common people. He replaced that priesthood by becoming the final, last, and only sacrifice for the sins of mankind. That's why the priest's hatched the plot to have him killed. Martin Luther figured out the Catholic theocracy was wrong and left it. Unfortunately he brought a lot of the priestly trappings with him ,but at least he got the main point right; no priest or list of rituals can reconcile you to God, only Jesus.

I belong to a church which has one pastor and 8 elected deacons to voluntarily help members and take care of the physical plant (we can't find a cave to meet in here in Florida.(LOL) The pastor leads and can be replaced by vote of the members. We are not responsible to any other church or body. We think that is the blueprint for a New Testament church. We do associate with other churches of like mind in sports, missionary endeavors, etc. The only money collected is voluntary contributions as you feel the Holy Spirit leads you to do, although we do teach tithing (10% of your income given to the church). It is voluntary, not mandatory, and no one knows or asks what anyone is giving. As I said in an earlier posting, that's why I prefer independent Baptists. By the way this is the same structure Thomas Jefferson used as a framework for the constitution as, after attending a few services at a friend's church, he declared it was the best form of democracy he had seen.

I do agree with you that many of the powerful now and past try to use religion to control people. The two ways they control people is religion and money. That's why the Anti-Christ of Revelations has two helpers; for reference lets call them the pope & the head of the world bank. However I disagree the majority are meek;they are mostly ignorant of the truth and have swallowed lies because of it. The Bible says "my people perish from lack of knowledge". That's why the Christians that founded this country insisted everyone be given at least a basic education so they could read and study God's word.

Bye for now. What's your explanation of my second question; how did Jesus do it?

Al

[muttdogg]

hell is for...

Hey Al,
Sorry, don't know what the second question on Jesus was, so can't give you my answer.
But as to your reply to my post, maybe I didn't explain well enough, then again, didn't know if you'd reply. These threads seem to die out rather quickly, so your interest shows you are either interested in my opinions or the facts(?) we are discussing: I'll take either. I was raised a Catholic, now am no longer practicing, Have absolutely no disgust for other catholics, nor the way it is taught: even though I should. That said, the Jewish friend was one of the few religous people interested in discussing, not only their version of their religion, which I was interested at the time, but his feelings on Christianity, mostly in relation to first century, both BC and AD. Gotta say he felt a little bit left out. As far as history records. Imagine Tony Stewart winning a race, and saying nothing about his pit crew. Jesus was a Jew, not a capricorn.
Anyway, after high school, the Karate disciple, call him Mike, cause that is his name, and I had very long talks about religion, and how it affected us and others. He was brought up in a home that preached no religion, not because they hated religion, but because they saw no use in it. Mike was very opened minded about G-D, religion, Jesus, and the such. He loved to pick my brain about, the pulpit, gospels, "what the hell is a Eucharist?" We came up with our own versions about Heaven, hell, Earth, religion, and what have you.
So, this is my response to your statement that I use two religions I don't support to make my claim. Or that Karate Kid is my religous Muse.
If I have been too obtuse, let me know. My girlfriend never knows when I'm being sarcastic, or facetious.
Thanks again for your response.

[Doug]

You gotta laugh, you'll be healthier!!!

Hey Al,
Or that Karate Kid is my religous Muse.
If I have been too obtuse, let me know. My girlfriend never knows when I'm being sarcastic, or facetious.

Oh no, sarcasm!!! My bread and butter!! Dan, I saw The Karate Kid recently on the cable box recently, too funny.

I'm not religious myself and have read most of the SETH books by Jane Roberts, which I highly recommend. Deepak Chopra, Louise Hay, Mary Ann Williamson, even Doug Coffman and a number of authors credit that information to enhancing their understanding of the Universe and our role in it.
A man called Dannion Brinkley wrote "Saved by the Light" and has died three times and come back (you gotta appreciate his persistence) I've heard him speak at a Coptic Conference here in eastern Tennessee - part of the bible belt, that surprised me.
His enthusiasm and energy is contagious. I see auras and his was booming! The three times he was in the afterlife -- he mentioned not seeing a hell but would've qualified to be there He wasn't asked what religion he was a member of, they didn't check for ID or a password. One of the amazing things he talked about is the review of life -- the bible almost gets it on this one -- You get a 360° view to see every person you came in contact with in your life. You see how it happened, outcome, etc. BUT then... you get to see it through their eyes - how you affected them A total learning experience. There wasn't a St. Peter with a hand on a lever for the chute to hell... It was funny hearing Dannion say he hugs as many people as he can, knowing he'll feel that later back from them. Dannion isn't just selling books and doing seminars for a living, he is chairman of the board for The Twilight Brigade and his own website is Dannion.com His compassion for others and knowing the need for visiting the veterans who served is amazing to me. He knows the dying process, what they'll experience and knows the signs of a person getting glimpses of the "other" side! SETH talks about that too. When people are old and not making sense, speaking of things that don't make sense, that's what they are talking about -- kids are the same way - we know more cool stuff in the beginning before we're told by adults - "That's just nonsense, it's not true!"
I was able to talk to Dannion at the conference personally for 20 min. or so. That was amazing, he's so friendly and confident in his wording, (he's seen it all) but he's down to earth at the same time - good man.

So in conclusion, I'm not worried about a hell...
Wish you the best,
Doug

[Aaron]

your book and Dannion

Doug,

You authored a book? If so, start a new thread with the subject line as the exact title of the book.

Dannion is a friend of mine, I agree...very profound person.

[ANTIQUER]

Hey Al,
Sorry, don't know what the second question on Jesus was, so can't give you my answer.
But as to your reply to my post, maybe I didn't explain well enough, then again, didn't know if you'd reply. These threads seem to die out rather quickly, so your interest shows you are either interested in my opinions or the facts(?) we are discussing: I'll take either. I was raised a Catholic, now am no longer practicing, Have absolutely no disgust for other catholics, nor the way it is taught: even though I should. That said, the Jewish friend was one of the few religous people interested in discussing, not only their version of their religion, which I was interested at the time, but his feelings on Christianity, mostly in relation to first century, both BC and AD. Gotta say he felt a little bit left out. As far as history records. Imagine Tony Stewart winning a race, and saying nothing about his pit crew. Jesus was a Jew, not a capricorn.
Anyway, after high school, the Karate disciple, call him Mike, cause that is his name, and I had very long talks about religion, and how it affected us and others. He was brought up in a home that preached no religion, not because they hated religion, but because they saw no use in it. Mike was very opened minded about G-D, religion, Jesus, and the such. He loved to pick my brain about, the pulpit, gospels, "what the hell is a Eucharist?" We came up with our own versions about Heaven, hell, Earth, religion, and what have you.
So, this is my response to your statement that I use two religions I don't support to make my claim. Or that Karate Kid is my religous Muse.
If I have been too obtuse, let me know. My girlfriend never knows when I'm being sarcastic, or facetious.
Thanks again for your response.

Hey Dan!

Yes, a lot of these threads go dormant and then revive after a while, so I don't mind if you and I are the only one posting because I know a lot of others are reading this, and I am interested in both your opinions and the facts(?).

My second question was how did the risen Jesus suddenly appear to the apostles in a room which had a locked door and closed windows?

Basically your current response only gives more detail and and confirms my comment that 3 people were instrumental in the opinions you have formed and they were biased sources.You got your bias from being raised Catholic, your Jewish friend from his parents(I assume) religion and teachings, and your friend who was involved in karate from his apparently atheistic parents. As I said, pretty biased.

Let me first state that I hate no member or individual involved in any religion or belief system. It is the system or tenets or theology that I don't like, the Catholic church probably at the head of the list in the U.S., Europe, And South and Central America as that is where they have had the most influence. It is a man-made religion hiding under the guise of Christianity with a theology twisted to fit their needs. I don't want to get into details right now for the sake of brevity, but if you wish to pick any of the teachings you were raised with (like "The Eucharist") I'd enjoy a brief discussion as to how they compare with what the King James Bible has to say about it.

As to your Jewish friend that is not an uncommon feeling among unsaved Jewish people. I would suggest he contact "The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc." Google takes you to their website. They have a sample packet of phamphlets, among other resources, that explain from their own Torah where they went wrong and what varius rabbi's have to say. He basically feels left out because he has been taught to reject Yeshua ben Yosef instead of embracing him. Remember, He said He came to fulfill the old testament law and prophesy's and replace them with "a new testament" .
I am also aware of what went on in Judea in the 1st century, how Caesar destroyed The Temple in Jerusalem ( The center of Judaism), killed, enslaved or dispersed the Jewish people and changed the name of "That troublesome and rebellious province" to Palestine. That's when some of the surviving priesthood re-wrote and reinterpreted parts of the Torah so their religon could survive without the temple. I am also more than willing to discuss any specifics of that time period. You might also like to read the writings of the secular Jewish historian Josepheus, who lived in and wrote a history of that time.

Funny!! I don't think the Karate Kid is anyone's muse nor are you being obtuse. As someone pointed out in another thread it is difficult to know what someone means here sometimes as we don't have the benefit of body language, facial expresions or tonem of voice that we have in an actual conversation. That can lead to misunderstandings or wrong interpretations but I guess we'll just have to carry on and muddle our way through it.

Anyhow I enjoy our discussion here and look forward to your next comment and answer to my second question.

Al.

[ANTIQUER]

Hi Doug!

You say you are not religious and yet judging from the books you have read you are searching for something. I once read "Religion is Man's search for God; Christianity is when he finds Him." How's that for sarcasm; hoisted on your own petard! (LOL)

I am not familiar with Dannion but I will check him out, esp. after Aaron's endorsement.

However his story is like many people have related after "near death" experiences.As to his comment that he saw no sign of Hell even though he thought he was deserving of it my belief is that he was probably saved as a child and somehow forgot it or felt he lost it due to his actions later in life.According to the bible that is not possible as once you are saved God keeps you, you don't keep yourself safe. As in real life you can't be "un-born" out of you earthly family no matter what you do.

I do remember a particular interview with a nurse who "died" and first had a feeling of going down a long dark tunnel for a while , then slowing down as it widened out and approached a set of gates from which she felt heat and heard cries and moans of torment while a voice from somewhere described this as Hell. She was then accellerated "upwards" toward a great light until she was greeted by her mother, father, grandfather, other relatives and a young girl hanging on to her mother's skirt whom she did not recognize.When she asked who that was her mother replied it was a younger sister. This was a total surprise as she had never heard of her. Skipping ahead for brevity, when she revived and recovered she checked and found her parents never mentioned the younger sister as they were so grief stricken they removed all traces of her and never mentioned her again. She had died some 12 years before this lady was born.

I have found these experiences all have things in common, but are also unique to each individual.I think God uses them to assure us there is an afterlife and He is there. I know of no story of anyone coming back from Hell which is a lesson in itself; there is no after life without Jesus who is in Heaven. Those souls in Hell are there until they are ultimately judged by God and shown how they were given many chances to accept His Son but rejected Him. The ultimate penalty for that is their ultimate destruction along with Satan and his crowd.

Of course Peter has no control over who goes to Heaven or Hell. He was a man same as you or I. We, like him, make our own choices that decide our fate(eternal life or death). He chose correctly.

I also find it interesting that you, like so many non-religious people, have read and studied a lot of books by various people, but never read and studied the only book written by God. Oh well, you are still alive so there is still time.

Al.

[Aaron]

Dannion Brinkley

What I like about Dannion is that he has contributed greatly to relieving the suffering of countless veterans. I understand the intentional and planned corruption against veterans as I was a military brat for 20 years and my first hand witness, I'll just leave it at that!!! Has influenced my life to this day and it drives me intensely!

His views, based on 3 near death experiences...struck by lightening, having his brains fall out on the operating table, etc... and his experience of what he perceived during "death" influenced his mission. I don't necessarily believe his personal beliefs on religion and other spiritual matters...some I do, some I don't, but he is definitely an interesting person who has had a positive impact on countless people.

[Aaron]

Genesis & Adam and Eve

Hi Al,

With your perspective on the bible, do you believe Genesis with the story of Adam and Eve to be:

Literal - That family lineage exists literally up to Kind David and to Christ.

Story - Merely a story to demonstrate certain teachings.

Multiple Topology Teaching - It is both literal and also any divine writing will have truths on multiple topologies meaning that the story of Genesis and Adam and Eve has other meanings that go deeper than face value in addition to the face value.

Something else - ??

For example, Adam...literal translation? Man/Thinker/etc...? If that translation is true, are there possibly other meanings of these stories real or not that we're supposed to get besides any literal interpretation?