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  • #16
    Wallace Klink

    Since there are at least 2 sides to every story, I'll present another side.
    Worldwide productivity is rising fast and most stuff is made or harvested by machines. There are claims that it is no longer correct to link reward to work performed. We should just turn on the machines and enjoy great bounty.

    Wallace Kinck -- answering those who say the purpose of economic policy should be to "create jobs,"



    The policy of creating "jobs" is by its fundamental nature retrogressive--a socialist, communist, fascist, labour--and finance-capitalist policy of sabotage of the rapidly growing productivity inherent in our vast Cultural Heritage. The policy of creating work increasingly for the mere sake of distributing financial incomes is totally irrational, destructive and specifically anti-Christian. Making an end of a means is a major sin within the boundaries of Christian morality. A formal State policy of full or near-full employment is based upon the Doctrine of Salvation through Works (known as the philosophy of "do ut des") which is diametrically opposed to the Christian Doctrine of Salvation through Grace.

    Our existing financial system is squarely based upon the Doctrine of Salvation through Works. That is why it issues money or effective demand in the first instance only for production and never for consumption. We could through technology eliminate virtually all need for human participation in production and the financial system, and the Puritanical influence behind it, would still demand that no one should eat because they had no job to justify drawing from the surfeit of goods produced through non-labour processes. The problem is not a lack of "jobs" but rather a lack of effective consumer demand due to a fundamental and intrinsic flaw in the costing methods used in the price-system.

    Production will naturally respond to effective consumer demand but demand is increasingly incapable of responding consequent to the evermore inadequate incomes distributed by the modern capital-intensifying economy. Need creates demand and effective consumer demand is a call upon produced goods which in an efficient economy will be increasingly provided with evermore diminishing need for human intervention.
    But effective demand in a money economy requires that consumers possess enough unattached financial income to claim the entire output of industry. We do not need more work but rather more real financial purchasing power. Increasing consumer debt does NOT qualify as genuine purchasing-power because it merely transfers financial costs as a charge against future production. Your barber should obtain some automated orbital hair cutters. Of course this would displace more labour and increase the need for sane and practical distributive reform of the existing defective financial price-system.

    Real need does not decrease with inadequate financial income. Need decreases with satiation provided by adequate real wealth. If the financial system does not provide sufficient effective financial purchasing-power then this inadequacy requires to be investigated and rectified--a task that requires application of a certain amount of intellectual effort. Unfortunately, however, as one Social Credit author was moved to observe, it seems that most people would rather die than think.

    Sincerely
    Wally
    Last edited by Danny B; 04-10-2020, 02:20 PM.

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    • #17
      Productivity and consumption

      I've tried to show both sides to the argument on productivity and distribution.
      Gandhi said "there is enough for everybody's need but not enough for everybody's greed".
      EVERY attempt at disbursing wealth equally has failed dismally. Decades ago, a business owner made about 15 times what his workers earned. Today, that has grown to 50 or 60 times. Depends on the business. The income inequality is being twisted into class warfare.
      Why The Haves Have So Much : NPR

      Equality doesn't work. Runaway inequality doesn't work too well. What other option is there? There is Mondragon.
      "At Mondragon, there are agreed-upon wage ratios between the worker-owners who do executive work and those who work in the field or factory and earn a minimum wage. These ratios range from 3:1 to 9:1 in different cooperatives and average 5:1."
      Mondragon Corporation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      Mondragon has been around for a while. It seems to work pretty well.

      The health and vitality of a society is dependent on the surpluses that it generates. Take a good look at North Korea and you can see what the productivity of a police state is. Socialism necessitates a police state and a command economy. Those two destroy all surpluses and any viable future.
      What happens to the finance industry when surplus is destroyed? The parasites don't produce for themselves and must depend on SURPLUS production from the producers.

      Socialism carries it's own destruction in it's game plan. Vladimir Putin warned obummer NOT to try socialism. Russia had it for 70 years and it was a colossal failure.
      History runs in cycles. One name for the economic cycle is the Kondratieff cycle. Elloit waves is another area of study.
      Strauss and Howe write about generational cycles.
      Strauss–Howe generational theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
      We are at the fourth turning.

      Comment


      • #18
        thank you for the interesting Thread and taking the time to share your Knowledge

        are you familiar with :

        History's Hidden Engine - Socionomics Institute

        History's Hidden Engine - YouTube

        History's Hidden Engine is the result of more than three years of research and creativity by filmmaker David Moore. Moore traveled North America to capture the insights of 17 brilliant minds, then wove them into this film. In just 59 minutes and with the help of pop songs, news footage and cultural images that are familiar to everyone, this documentary shows how social mood drives trends in movies, music, fashion, finance, economics, politics, the media and war.
        ps: like you ..... electronics and i seem to not be very compatible

        also if you observe the rhythm of crisis has accelerated since the Asian Crisis ( 1997 Asian financial crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) ... each crisis preceded or followed by war .... today we are at a convergence point ..... knowing the "bright minds" on top .... they will try to dance to the same tune as usual when in fact as you so kindly shared ..... the whole rules of the games need to change ... as they seem to be the only ones still playing at fool the plebs when in fact everyone is seeing that the king is naked ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes )

        Last edited by MonsieurM; 12-07-2012, 03:12 PM.
        Signs and symbols -Confucius.

        Comment


        • #19
          Monsieur M, thanks for the link. The vid is fascinating.
          You should look at the noosphere.
          Global Consciousness Project -- consciousness, group consciousness, mind
          And the hundredth monkey
          The Hundredth Monkey
          Brian Josephson has plenty to say on the subject too.
          Brian Josephson's home page

          Comment


          • #20
            Banking and currency creation

            10 characters
            Last edited by Danny B; 12-30-2012, 03:29 AM. Reason: Jumped the gun on posting

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            • #21
              Banking and currency creation

              Many decades ago, Howard Hughes built an empire based on aviation. He designed and built planes. He owned airlines. He became the first billionaire entrepreneur.
              In 1992, George Soros created synthetic instruments to "short" the British pound. He kept attacking and finally broke through. He collapsed the pound and profited about $1 billion dollars.
              Black Wednesday - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

              This has been an increasing trend for decades. Rather than do anything productive, the financial industry bets back and forth and makes a killing.
              Mergers and acquisitions, hostile takeovers followed by asset gutting of the target.
              Often, there wasn't enough profit to be made legally. The S&L scandal is a perfect example. Power groups got the law changed and made off with $! trillion. About 1,000 went to jail. Fraud became endemic. It took the bankers 19 years to get rid of the Glass-Stegal law. That and a few other changes have made it very difficult to put anyone in jail for fraud.

              This short vid explains the early genesis of banking.
              The Goldsmiths Tale - YouTubeCharleston Voice: The Role of Cash Settlement in Market Manipulation and in the Panic of 1987

              GOV liabilities are at $211 trillion.
              Kotlikoff Sees U.S. Fiscal Gap of $211 Trillion: Video - Bloomberg
              The situation has been compared to; two drunks holding each other up.

              Then there are the states. They've dug a big hole for them selves.
              "In the West Contra Costa Schools' case, that $2.5 million bond will cost the district a whopping $34 million to repay."
              Only In California: School Owes $1 Billion On $100 Million 'PayDay' Loan | ZeroHedge

              Too much money borrowed too stupidly.

              Comment


              • #22
                All that money and no wealth

                In 2008, the bank of international settlements warned of a coming collapse.
                They were one of the very few who spoke up.
                Now they are warning of a collapse in the bond market.


                The world economy is about $ 50 trillion a year.
                The current total estimated notional value of all the derivatives is $1.5 quadrillion. There is an estimated 10 quadrillion worth of contracts denominated just in dollars.
                The money supply in America rose at 6 times the rate that the GDP rose.
                We see an enormous amount of currency and money-substitutes being created without underlying wealth.

                The world is awash in paper instruments. These instruments have no intrinsic value. They can only be "vitiated" by wealth skimmed off in taxes and profit from the production-consumption cycle.
                The various banks have had to extend credit farther and farther out to make up for the lost purchasing power in the West. We promised tomorrow's wages for today's luxuries.

                The credit super-cycle is coming to an end. Consumers are using credit for survival. Wealth is moving from the West to the East.
                The standard of living is dropping.
                Too many people failed to save.
                "#7 One recent survey discovered that 40 percent of all Americans have $500 or less in savings.

                #8 A different recent survey found that 28 percent of all Americans do not have a single penny saved for emergencies."
                15 Signs That The Economy Is Rapidly Getting Worse As We Head Into 2013

                Manufacturing is the primary value-added industry. It moved East. Our standard of living will drop quite a bit.
                GOV promoted itself as the ultimate security-blanket. That promise is soon to be proved a fraud and a lie. When the bond market blows, it will take EVERYTHING with it. It's hard to say whether the bond market or the derivatives market will blow first.
                The Coming Derivatives Crisis That Could Destroy The Entire Global Financial SystemFaber: ‘Massive Wealth Destruction’ Coming, Well-to-Do ‘May Lose 50%’ | The Total Collapse

                While it is more-or-less safe to predict economic events, it is very risky to set a timeline. Wiedemer is off by a bit.
                A collapse in the bond market would make almost all paper assets worthless. There is a very good chance that U.S. dollars would still have good value. Keep cash at home.

                This is an article on the current financial operating system.
                Guest Post: The Economic Death Spiral Has Been Triggered | ZeroHedge
                This is an excellent vid on the longer term forecast;
                Bucky's Vision of the Coming Better World, Dollars and Sense Show 27 - YouTube

                Keep in mind that a bond market collapse will cause a bank holiday.
                During a bank holiday, NO credit transactions can be posted. That means no EBT cards, no credit.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Inflation, deflation and the 2 loop economy

                  Inflation only has one definition: an increase in the supply of currency and credit.
                  Deflation is, of course, a decrease. Price-inflation is an independent animal.
                  When GOV prints and banks lend, they must do so to create the currency to pay for both principle and interest. Keynesian economics demands a continuous increase. They need enough inflation to keep the system running.
                  This also serves to keep repayment easier. GOV debt is alleviated 50% on average by currency inflation.

                  As global wage competition lowered American wages, we still got price inflation commensurate with currency inflation but, we learned a new term.
                  Stagflation is a wage-price spiral without the wage part.
                  Currently, we learn another term, Biflation.
                  Everything you own goes down in value and everything that you buy goes up in cost.

                  When the housing bubble petered out, the consumer was no longer able to make the credit-and-money supply grow. The housing bubble was the jump-start to the economy after the tech bubble burst. The bond bubble is the jump start that was necessitated after the housing bubble burst. This is the last bubble. The FED admitted that it was doing things that it would have considered crazy 10 years ago.

                  To keep Keynesian credit growth going for the banks, GOV (you and me) gave them ABOUT $27 trillion. That didn't begin to fix things. The FED said that it is going to print an extra $ trillion.

                  Consider that unfunded GOV debt is at $ 202 trillion and grows by about $ 7 trillion a year. To put that in perspective, GOV claims that there is about $ 2 trillion in the SS fund. Actually, the SS fund holds that sum in NON-negotiable treasury debt. GOV needs to rollover about $ 2.8 trillion in debt. The FED is already printing about 80% of that and the percentage is expected to rise. It remains to be seen just how long this can go on.

                  One would think that with huge amounts of currency inflation, there would be dramatically higher price inflation. While the currency inflation is on a tear, there are 2 reasons why price inflation is muted.
                  Prices are influenced by the amount of money in circulation and also the velocity that this money changes hands. So, while supply is up, velocity is down. This dampens price inflation.

                  The financial people need inflation but, hyperinflation would destroy the currency and society. They have just the plan.

                  We live and operate in a 2-loop economy. GOV and banks move around
                  $ trillions every day. This moves in the upper loop. The PTB created about
                  $ 51 trillion worldwide for this crisis. GOV pisses and moans about $2 billion spent for food stamps. Bernanke promised to drop currency from helicopters. He did that alright. He dropped it to bankers.

                  The lower loop is starved out. Look at the austerity that is demanded by the bankers who lent imaginary money to the PIIGS. The job of a bankers is to convert imaginary money into tangible rewards. Since the imaginary money is ALWAYS deposited into a bank somewhere, it doesn't matter how much they create. The bankers get quite irate when the punters are no longer able to make the conversion. The bankers went overboard and created TOO much imaginary money.

                  The bankers are currently in the process of starving the goose that lays the golden eggs. They like to imagine themselves as being productive but, that is not the case. They would like to think that the trickle-down from their loop is enough to sustain the lower loop. This is no longer the case. Globalism took the wind out of the lower loop and it can no longer sustain the upper loop. Like a plane with shrinking wings (shrinking employment), it will no longer fly.

                  They got carried away in their greed and all their precious paper is in danger. Their cure is to create more paper. They certainly can't create wealth and they can't get us to create adequate wealth.
                  They have meetings and they announce that they have fixed the problems.
                  You're on your own.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Danny B View Post
                    .
                    You're on your own.



                    ps: thank you for the new term Biflation
                    Signs and symbols -Confucius.

                    Comment


                    • #25

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        The Entitlement Cliff

                        Here is another stat;
                        "#17 The total amount of money that the federal government gives directly to the American people has grown by 32 percentsince Barack Obama became president."
                        Cloward–Piven strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                        Here is a pic from a SS office that doesn't include one single gray head.


                        Holdren isn't the only crazy advisor. Goolsbee (now departed) said;
                        "Prof. Goolsbee has a bizarre idea that is promoted by many liberal Democratic economists. That idea in effect is that your money, all of it, every last penny, belongs to the federal government in the first instance and only if the government feels generous, it might let you keep some of your money "
                        The Crazy World of Prof. Goolsbee - Illinois Review
                        If the economy seems confusing, consider the source.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Currency war

                          Almost all of the central banks are printing like crazy,,,, and crazy it is.
                          Zimbabwe proved once again that you can't print your way to prosperity.
                          The FED has admitted that they are taking actions that they would have considered crazy just 10 years ago. They're doing it anyway.
                          Peter Schiff: The Federal Reserve is Now 100% Committed to the Destruction of the Dollar | munKNEE.com

                          The FED is on their way to printing an additional $ 1.02 trillion this year (2013)
                          2013 The Final Act | International Forecaster Weekly Bob Chapman The International Forcaster | Economy News | Investing | US Market Information | Gold | Silver | Wall Street Bailouts | Investment Trends | Money Resources | US and Worldwide Politics
                          Bank of Japan has gone off the deep end with printing.
                          The European central bank is doing the same.
                          They're crashing their currencies in unison so that investors won't notice or won't have any place to flee.

                          The exception is Russia. Russia is now circulating gold and silver coins that are denominated in Rubles.
                          Central Bank of Russia issues gold and silver legal tender | DGC
                          This is the equivalent of a thermonuclear attack on Western currencies.
                          Gresham's Law states that bad currencies will drive good currencies into hiding.
                          Gresham's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

                          Since the Russian coins are stamped with a number, the Russian currency will never lose purchasing power,,, as long as it retains convertibility.
                          No fiat currency has ever survived for very long. The average lifespan is 30--40 years. The U.S. dollar is 42 years old as a non-convertibility currency.
                          Theoretically, people will hoard Russian currency to avoid losing "value" from inflation.
                          The Chinese have taken all those 400 ounce "good delivery bars" and recast them into 0ne kilo bars. It is expected that they will use them for trade rather than hoarding. China is also buying and selling enormous amounts of gold trying to position themselves as the main trader. They are doing the same with oil.

                          Western bankers are willing to kill the dollar to save the banking system.
                          It's possible that they have a plan where they will come out OK even after the dollar is destroyed.
                          I do not believe that they will survive. Banking and credit are, for the most part, just information services. In the information age, that doesn't require a big organization. This huge reduction was coming and the bankers tried to avoid it. They blew credit instruments up to the stratosphere.
                          OTC-Derivatives extrapolated estimates | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
                          There is no possibility that the producing economy can support the whole big mess.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Rise and fall of U.S. manufacturing

                            After WW II, America had a lock on manufacturing. Our standard of living rose way up. At one point, the U.S. treasury held 25,500 tons of gold.
                            All species expand their population commensurate with their perceived supply of resources. We doubled the size of the average house.
                            Size of Average American House Doubled Since 1950s

                            We had bigger families and bought more cars and STUFF.
                            By about 1970, the rest of the world had rebuilt much of their manufacturing capacity. U.S. wages froze to reflect low-wage arbitrage from emerging Western competition. We limped along on stagnant wages. We papered over the problem with an increase in credit.
                            We lost our lock on manufacturing but, we maintained our standard of living by borrowing 80% of the savings from foreigners.

                            Then came competition from the East. We didn't want to surrender our standard of living but, we lost 500,000 jobs a year just to China.. About 155,000 people try to enter the job market every month. Even schooling didn't seem to help.
                            55% of all Americans with a bachelor's degree under the age of 25 were either unemployed or underemployed last year.

                            #23 Back in 1950, more than 80 percent of all men in the United States had jobs. Today, less than 65 percent of all men in the United States have jobs.

                            This page is loaded with statistics that illustrate that Western countries have simply lost their jobs.
                            Activist Post: 75 Economic Numbers From 2012 That Are Almost Too Crazy To Believe
                            There is no magic formula that brings back jobs to over-priced labor.
                            The Chinese make 1/10 what we do.
                            Average Cost Of A Factory Worker In The U.S., China And Germany [INFOGRAPHIC]

                            OK, so we lost our job decades ago. ALL residential real estate prices are determined by the wages in the same area. The average person has to be able to afford the average house. Unfortunately, house prices continued to inflate even after wages stagnated,,,, and then fell.
                            Residential RE has fallen but that has only helped those who still have a job.
                            Unemployment is up to 23%;
                            Alternate Unemployment Charts

                            2,273,392 jobs were outsourced in 2011.
                            Job Outsourcing Statistics | Statistic Brain
                            Even the R&D jobs are leaving in large numbers.
                            We lost our job and our standard of living is going to fall dramatically.
                            GOV has tried to hold back the tide by printing currency and over-paying people to work for GOV.
                            The B.I.S. says that the bond market is going to crash. That will take out treasury bonds and GOV won't be able to pay salaries and retirement to all those GOV workers and contractors.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Martin Armstrong and OZ

                              This doc is from Martin Armstrong. He had 240 people working for him worldwide. GOV wanted him to stop because he was TOO accurate. They threw him in prison for 7 years for contempt. He did a total of about 9 years and was never convicted of anything. He makes a very good explanation of current account deficits.
                              Bluehost - Top rated web hosting provider - Free 1 click installs For blogs, shopping carts, and more. Get a free domain name, real NON-outsourced 24/7 support, and superior speed. web hosting provider php hosting cheap web hosting, Web hosting, domain names, front page hosting, email hosting. We offer affordable hosting, web hosting provider business web hosting, ecommerce hosting, unix hosting. Phone support available, Free Domain, and Free Setup.


                              The other interesting thing is his explanation of double counting by GOV.
                              GOV prints currency and spends it into the economy. That counts for almost 40% of the GDP currently.
                              GOV counts the wages of GOV employees when figuring the GDP. GOV counts the money once when they print it and counts it again when they pay wages.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                borrowing for consumption

                                Borrowing money for prudent investment is generally a good idea.
                                Borrowing money for basic consumption is never a good idea. That's why banks never loan money to those who desperately need it. GOV steps in to borrow money to give to those who desperately need it. Then, GOV takes up a collection (forced) from those who do have money.
                                Alternatively, GOV prints money and collects from EVERYBODY by way of currency inflation.

                                ALL of this money injected into the economy is debt. Many decades ago, when GOV injected a dollar of new debt money into the economy, it stimulated close to a dollar in new productivity. As time went on, these new dollars injected into the economy were used for consumption rather than for prudent investment. These new dollars carried an interest cost. This means that new debt is still a debt BUT, it has a declining return-of-investment.

                                In the early 60s, when a new dollar was created as debt, it resulted in about a dollar of GDP increase. In 1982, when a new dollar was injected into the economy, it created about 50 cents of increased productivity.
                                In the last several years, there has been NO INCREASE in productivity.
                                Every new dollar of debt created is pure debt that also carries an interest cost as well. We get a new dollar of debt plus a new interest burden so; every new dollar results in LESS wealth available for consumption.


                                GOV is printing about $ 85 billion a month. There is a fast-decreasing amount of wealth at the same time that there is a fast-increasing amount of currency. The productive economy is experiencing deflation and price deflation.

                                GOV is a different story.
                                "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun" chairman Mao
                                GOV continues to raise taxes and fees, You have no choice about paying.
                                Both GOV and banks can create currency from thin air. They have plenty of currency. This gives them an ever-increasing claim on an ever-decreasing amount of wealth. They can drive prices up with their wet-ink money.
                                Since they are the source of currency inflation, they CAN be the source of price inflation. The PTB prefer to keep price inflation low.

                                The natives get very irate when food gets too expensive. There are claims that food prices will continue to rise;
                                Watch: "The Global Food Crisis You Need To Prepare For Is Now Imminent"

                                The PTB need to inflate enough to rescue the financial system but, not so much that people starve. I don't trust them.

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