Tesla Magnifying Transmitter/Eric Dollard Type Coils Compendium

[Ernst]

I have attached 4 images to show the different resonant modes.

mode 0: 1/4 wave spread over two coils. This seems possible, I think we all agree.

mode 2: two 1/4 wave coils in concatenated mode. This is what Eric believes to be in Tesla's dream. The problem that I am having visualizing this mode is in the forces acting between the coils. The secondary is exiting the extra by a force F-sec. The extra has some inertia (inductance) which will counteract this force with an equal and opposite force F-ine. So in order to make the swing go the other way, it would seem to me that an extra (outside?) force F-? is needed to overcome F-ine.

mode 1: this seems to me the logical outcome of two 1/4 concatenated coils.

mode 3: the solution that I am using and which is working.

The reason I asked you if you could visualize your mode of resonance (#2) is twofold:
1 - because I can not, and I want to see if I am missing something
2 - if you can, you must also be able to define the conditions for obtaining this mode of resonance, and then it would seem to me only a small step to implement it.

For example in mode 3 the conditions are:
The secondary is freely resonating, that is without capacative or inductive load, meaning at its self-resonance frequency.
The extra and the top-load form a second resonating system so it only acts as a resistive load on the secondary.
Knowing the frequency, you know the wirelength in each coil, and from this you can design both coils.
The ideal secondary will be what I have called a phi-coil since its length to diameter ratio is the golden ratio (phi). The matching extra will become a long thin coil, especially at high frequencies. (but as you know I am still working on that)

But if my interpretation of your answer is correct, you are no longer pursuing mode 2?

Ernst.

[Sputins]

Analogue

I would say that an analogue of concatenated resonance might be two (organ) pipes, which may be of different geometries but having the same resonant frequency. One pipe is made to resonate through direct excitation, the output of which is input to the other pipe in such a way that the second pipe doesn't impede the efficiency or quality of the first. But while the first pipe must be free to resonate naturally, the physical gap must be so that energy is also efficiently transferred from one pipe to the other in order that the second pipe produces an appreciable output at exactly the same frequency.

Pretty good analogy of concatenated resonance regarding the organ pipes.

I was looking for an analogue, or even just a parable concerning this!
- An added complication to the pipe analogy might be that the ‘secondary pipe’ is housed in one particular medium and the ‘extra pipe’ in housed in another type of medium where the speed of the sound propagation is somewhat different for each pipe. (?)

[dR-Green]

mode 1: this seems to me the logical outcome of two 1/4 concatenated coils.

But if my interpretation of your answer is correct, you are no longer pursuing mode 2?

Yes I see what you're saying. But then that would either be 1/2 wave, or it would have to take the time/phase factor into account. With no time then you could fit half the wave over both coils with the same distribution, but if the extra coil is considered to be lagging by 90 degrees (in time) and alternating if you will with the secondary, then both coils have a 1/4 wave distribution but at different moments in time. But this is just thinking out loud as you will soon see...

I'm not "no longer pursuing mode 2", just that it could take a while assuming it's even possible, so I built the CS coil as a "working benchmark" to bring the more application orientated experiments sooner in the timeline, and like I mentioned I can easily experiment with different extra coils on the same secondary, there's no particular optimised design so the CS secondary will do just as well as any other (that I would have to build!).

Anyway I've been thinking of making an animation of the waves and coils for months so these discussions urged me to finally do it, it's based on the info in the Bell Labs video. It assumes the secondary to be "low" impedance and the extra coil "high" impedance relative to each other, and so the reflection between the coils is inverted and returns 180 degrees out of phase, and the free end of the extra coil is an "open circuit" so that reflection is also inverted. There's then a "2nd generation" reflection of the extra coil reflection which is non-inverted since it's journey from extra coil to secondary is high to low impedance, although some things seem to cancel each other out so these reflections are questionable. A non-inverted reflection at the top of the secondary wasn't included because apparently whether it's an extra coil or an open circuit, the wave is inverted in both instances, based on the assumption that the extra coil is a higher impedance. There's also a possibility, or perhaps impossibility, for the concatenated mode where both coils are in phase (or perhaps the extra coil lagging by 360 degrees), which is represented by the wave propagating along both coils simultaneously in what could be called parallel, but I guess in order for that to happen there would have to be some induction involved, thus the extra coil is "grounded" to the secondary but working "independently" from an alternating ground potential. In which case the centre horizontal line doesn't necessarily represent 0 volts.

Resonant Modes And Reflections-01 (TMT) - YouTube

[dR-Green]

Pretty good analogy of concatenated resonance regarding the organ pipes.

I was looking for an analogue, or even just a parable concerning this!
- An added complication to the pipe analogy might be that the ‘secondary pipe’ is housed in one particular medium and the ‘extra pipe’ in housed in another type of medium where the speed of the sound propagation is somewhat different for each pipe. (?)

As long as each one is designed to end up at a certain frequency within its intended environment then I should think that it wouldn't make any difference beyond that. A short and wide pipe can have the same resonant frequency as a long and thin one.

[Ernst]

Nice animation! What program did you make that with?

Ernst

[dR-Green]

Nice animation! What program did you make that with?

Ernst

Thanks, I used Macromedia Flash MX 2004

Macromedia - Studio : Studio MX 2004 Documentation

But as the name suggests it's old and might not be easy to get hold of these days.

This is the latest incarnation

Animation software, multimedia programs | Download Adobe Flash Professional CC

[Kokomoj0]

Resonant Modes And Reflections-01 (TMT) - YouTube

I think you would find that in order to add another 1/4 wavelength you can add as many coils as you wish and they will operate as one coil.

take a close look and see what you can gleen from this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxJg8VJ-dBA#t=55v

[dR-Green]

References:

AT&T Archives: Similiarities of Wave Behavior (Bonus Edition) - YouTube

Bell Labs Wave Machine: Reflection - YouTube

Bell Labes Wave Machine: Mismatched Impedence - YouTube

[Kokomoj0]

References:

AT&T Archives: Similiarities of Wave Behavior (Bonus Edition) - YouTube

Bell Labs Wave Machine: Reflection - YouTube

Bell Labes Wave Machine: Mismatched Impedence - YouTube

the att one is kool.
never seen this done so well mechanically before, though that is not really what a wave in space would look like, its still a great representation. always visualized it electrically or acoustically or water. 1:1 match always gives optimal power transfer. I am glad he showed the importance of SWR. I dont remember where but when I first came on this board I posted a really el cheapo DIY near lossless inline for Tcoil builders to take the pains out of tuning.

[GeorgeKn]

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[orgonaut314]

One very basic question on the extra coil.

Might be useful to add this picture in this thread.


My question is when tuning is the capacitor to earth also there? I would think that this capacity would have a resonant frequency with the extra coil. Is it so that first the extra coil is tuned and than the capacitor is added and tuned to get the same resonance?

[dR-Green]

Which capacity to earth do you mean? The coil exists in space so whatever resonant frequency it has includes it's self-capacitance to ground. The only way that would not be present is perhaps if you put it in a vacuum, or make the coil cease to exist. Also there's a certain amount of capacitance between one end of the coil and the other which you can't get rid of without getting rid of the coil itself.

[upgradd]

Passing Thoughts

While likely redundant, I thought I would add my 2cents to the discussion on resonance.

First, I think it's important to realize that many inductance calculators calculate the DC inductance, that is, the total magnetic field energy present if a current of equal intensity is present at ALL points along the coil. At frequencies well below resonance the DC calculation is adequate. However, at resonance the magnitude of the current (and its distribution inside the wire) varies significantly along the coil. I think everyone here understands this point, but its good to rehash none the less.

The most problematic issue for resonant frequency calculations is that a similar situation exists for capacitance, its value is dependent upon the electric field distribution along the coil winding. As a consequence, the effective value of capacitance is dependent upon excitation frequency. When well below resonance it appears to be stable, however, reach resonance and its value becomes highly dependent on the mode of excitation.

Something like an elephant in the room is that wire length of a coil isn't very indicative of what a coil will do or SHOULD do. Winding pitch, wire diameter, number of turns, coil diameter and height have a much more pronounced effect on frequency than total length of conductor. Ultimately the wire length shenanigans is referencing a quarter-wave distribution along a STRAIGHT wire. As such it can only be used as a baseline REFERENCE and really is not indicative of what YOUR coil should do. Of course any coil that favors propagation across the coil, rather than along it, will APPEAR faster than c! But that doesn't mean that the actual signal velocity is faster than c! The comparison is flawed from the beginning by assuming that the two geometries (helix and straight wire) can be compared quantitatively as an "apples to apples" situation. The confusion can be eliminated by realizing that the signal is propagating at an angle greater than the pitch angle of the winding but less than pi/2 radians: pi/2 >> pitch angle of incident wave > pitch angle of wire. Ultimately propagation velocity is slower than c, regardless of what coil geometry you use.

Some thoughts on the concatenation/tandem modes: has anyone tried tying the extra coil to ground at the same point as the secondary? This would force separate 1/4 wave resonance in both coils, though the electric field distribution across the two coils would no longer be in series. In reflection this seems what a possible "tandem" mode would actually look like. It might be possible to force concatenation by using two primary windings one at the base of both the secondary and the extra coil. You may need to space the the extra coil a little bit further away to lower mutual coupling and the two primary loops should be in series to share excitation current equally. As a variation you could place the second primary loop at the top of the extra coil but reverse its current sense. This last idea would produce two 1/4 waves that are additive but the gradient would look like (0V___+V)-(-V___0V), while the alternate possibility is (0V___+V)+(0V___+V), where + and - denote the relative phase of standing waves and 0 refers to virtual ground. Couldn't hurt to try.

I really don't see the concatenation mode working without forced excitation by a second primary loop, but it might be possible. The major issue for its existence is how the extra is excited by the secondary. If there is a large amount of mutual inductance it would seem unlikely, as transmission line action won't be very dominant. Capacitive coupling seems to be the better bet and the extra coil may need to be turned sideways for this to work with a tuning capacitor plate near the end terminal to force 1/4 wave resonance. Though it's likely that a 1/2 wave mode will appear at the extra coil. Though that may not be bad if the ends are anti nodes as you could still get an additive field gradient. Would certainly be a weird 3/4 wave mode if it could be done.

[orgonaut314]

2) Next is the extra coil. This coil here operates with a propagation constant less than an eighth of a wavelength. Therefore the coil is operating as a simple inductance coil, not as a distributed network. The distributed network capacity of this mode can be expressed as a definite terminal capacitance. Hence the inductance of this coil is adequately represented by its static inductance.

This post from Eric got me confused. Does the extra in tandem mode not act as a distributed network?

In that same post (beginning of this thread) Eric says that together with its elevated capacity the coil acts as a simple LC resonance network.

Perhaps the secondary is in resonance in this mode and the extra coil is not operated on its resonance frequency?

Anyway it seems that the understanding might have changed?

BTW thansk for the explanations also last poster. Self capacitance is much clearer now.

[dR-Green]

Be careful that you're not mixing descriptions of one thing and applying it to another.

2) Next is the extra coil. This coil here operates with a propagation constant less than an eighth of a wavelength. Therefore the coil is operating as a simple inductance coil, not as a distributed network. The distributed network capacity of this mode can be expressed as a definite terminal capacitance. Hence the inductance of this coil is adequately represented by its static inductance.

That is about the Colorado Springs coil, NOT the theoretical operation of the DMT style coils with experimental extra coil and intended concatenated resonance. It was established that the CS coil is not operating in concatenated mode, and the TOTAL wire length across both secondary and extra coil approx = 1/4 wave, so each coil is in effect approx 1/8 wave. Hence it's "adequately represented" by the lumped/static L and C - Close enough for meaningful calculation.