Alum conversion for lead acid batteries

[Neight]

Hey guys
I think I have identified the copper power that I show in the second video I posted above. I am quite sure it is copper(I) oxide, which will oxidize down to copper(II) oxide.
Not sure if it is useful, but I know getting an oxide layer on the copper plate helps these cells, and I am thinking of trying to apply a layer to a copper electrode, and see if it does anything.

here is a quote from wikipedia on one of the uses of copper(II) oxide.
"Copper(II) oxide has application as a p-type semiconductor, because it has a narrow band gap of 1.2 eV. It is an abrasive used to polish optical equipment. Cupric oxide can be used to produce dry cell batteries. It has also been used in wet cell batteries as the cathode, with lithium as an anode, and dioxalane mixed with lithium perchlorate as the electrolyte"

perhaps this would be better to post in the bedini earth light thread, but either way, here is it. I am going to play around with the small amount I have, and see if it has an effect on a cell I plan to make tonight.


N8

[blackchisel97]

Hey guys
I think I have identified the copper power that I show in the second video I posted above. I am quite sure it is copper(I) oxide, which will oxidize down to copper(II) oxide.
Not sure if it is useful, but I know getting an oxide layer on the copper plate helps these cells, and I am thinking of trying to apply a layer to a copper electrode, and see if it does anything.

here is a quote from wikipedia on one of the uses of copper(II) oxide.
"Copper(II) oxide has application as a p-type semiconductor, because it has a narrow band gap of 1.2 eV. It is an abrasive used to polish optical equipment. Cupric oxide can be used to produce dry cell batteries. It has also been used in wet cell batteries as the cathode, with lithium as an anode, and dioxalane mixed with lithium perchlorate as the electrolyte"

perhaps this would be better to post in the Bedini Earth Light thread, but either way, here is it. I am going to play around with the small amount I have, and see if it has an effect on a cell I plan to make tonight.


N8

Hi N8, Thanks for the update. I didn't abandon this thread but still waiting for alum to arrive and hoping to get better way to chart.
Please feel free to post here as well.
I used copper oxide on copper coiled electrodes in some of my early concrete cells. I still have one left. I was tempted to dissect and check but she's still running after a year with a bit of moisture added.
Thanks
Vtech

[Slider2732]

Neight, you'll find a good rise in voltage and amperage, if you burn the copper first. My method, is to heat a piece of copper on the highest heat of a cooker/stiove/bunsen burner for a couple of minutes and then quench in water. Do that 4 or 5 times and your copper should turn a salmon colour, there should also be plenty of black...that's your oxide. The copper I use has been from a PC heatsink and is fingernail thickness, by finger length size, rectangular. It becomes noticeably softer after the heating process.
Approximate figures - where normally a water, galvanized steel and plain copper cell will produce about 0.65V and 0.3mA or similar, you may see 0.8V and 1.7mA.

I must just mention a surprise from this evening. It rained quite heavily, so a couple of pills bottles were filled with rain straight out of the sky, dropping straight into the pills bottles - zero contamination (can't beat materials costs like that eh lol).
Galv steel and burnt copper as electrodes.
Plain, the readings were 0.75V 1mA
I added 1/8oz of Orthoboric Acid (Roach Killer 5oz for $1 from Dollar Tree) and 1/8oz of Baking Soda (Arm&Hammer) to one bottle. About a thimble of each to visualise.
On shaking the mixture up, the whole thing fizzed like a stomach gas tablet.
The readings were 0.95V 20mA !!!
It ran the little motor with propeller from a recent video (4mm cellphone vibrate motor and tail rotor from a micro helicopter, nothing like John and Chuck's setup of course !).
4hrs later, the mix has settled some (it doesn't have gas lol) and we're down to 0.85V and 20mA that drops to under 8mA with the DMM connected as a shorting load. Might be just interesting to look at the metals over time. My naivety of chemicals thinking being that I put an alkali with an acid to help balance the reactions. The plain water one will show any difference to just rain acid.

Alum may be the winner, but these sorts of experiments are certainly fun

[Neight]

Neight, you'll find a good rise in voltage and amperage, if you burn the copper first. My method, is to heat a piece of copper on the highest heat of a cooker/stiove/bunsen burner for a couple of minutes and then quench in water. Do that 4 or 5 times and your copper should turn a salmon colour, there should also be plenty of black...that's your oxide. The copper I use has been from a PC heatsink and is fingernail thickness, by finger length size, rectangular. It becomes noticeably softer after the heating process.
Approximate figures - where normally a water, galvanized steel and plain copper cell will produce about 0.65V and 0.3mA or similar, you may see 0.8V and 1.7mA.

I must just mention a surprise from this evening. It rained quite heavily, so a couple of pills bottles were filled with rain straight out of the sky, dropping straight into the pills bottles - zero contamination (can't beat materials costs like that eh lol).
Galv steel and burnt copper as electrodes.
Plain, the readings were 0.75V 1mA
I added 1/8oz of Orthoboric Acid (Roach Killer 5oz for $1 from Dollar Tree) and 1/8oz of Baking Soda (Arm&Hammer) to one bottle. About a thimble of each to visualise.
On shaking the mixture up, the whole thing fizzed like a stomach gas tablet.
The readings were 0.95V 20mA !!!
It ran the little motor with propeller from a recent video (4mm cellphone vibrate motor and tail rotor from a micro helicopter, nothing like John and Chuck's setup of course !).
4hrs later, the mix has settled some (it doesn't have gas lol) and we're down to 0.85V and 20mA that drops to under 8mA with the DMM connected as a shorting load. Might be just interesting to look at the metals over time. My naivety of chemicals thinking being that I put an alkali with an acid to help balance the reactions. The plain water one will show any difference to just rain acid.

Alum may be the winner, but these sorts of experiments are certainly fun

nice call on the acid, I had thought about doing something similar, but the little vial of acid I have isn't labeled, so I don't play with it. If I can identify what kind of acid it is, I may try and test it, but I don't like poisonous gasses in my lungs...
I do have a big jug of battery acid somewhere, though it is old, and I don't know what kind of shelf life battery acid has.

The copper plate that the oxide came off of did actually turn that same salmon pink without adding heat to it. Just being in the solution gave it a good oxide layer, which probably has something to do with the cell forming it's plates.
I have tested this cell with two of these aluminum plates, same metal for electrodes, and it still makes nice power. two copper plates doesn't perform as well, though it does work. so you don't even need dis-similar metals, this thing will just run with any ole' conductors in there (guess it's not that surprising, as lead acid batteries that are converted use all lead plates).

I have found that I can return the copper plate back to it's regular copper color, using a thinner aluminum plate on the negative, and right back pink with the same thicker plate as well.

another curious little observation on this cell, it bubble constantly. It is separating the H2O with no power input, and no load on the cell. just copper and aluminum electrodes, and some alum water solution, and you get electrolysis...

not really sure what all is going on, but there is apparently an ongoing chemical reaction in this cell, that produces power, even when you are not looking.

On an even further side note, I have an alum water cell that I made set up as the bad battery position from the work I am doing in the 3 battery generating system thread. It works, and quite well for a home made alum cell.
I shot a video of this working, and will post it up later on the 3 battery thread, for anyone who is interested.

Honestly, at this point, I have little to no idea what is going on here, but I am having a blast testing and trying to figure it out!


N8

here is the link to the video I posted on youtube, figure I would link it here also, since I mentioned it
3 bat gen sys + home made bat 3 - YouTube
enjoy

[FRC]

Neight

I have not watched the video yet but am very interested in your results with
the bad alum battery. I have an alum battery that did not recover and would not work as a bad battery. I was thinking to try putting a bit of battery acid
back into it to see if that would make it work as a bad battery. Do not know
if it will work. Any information from your trial will be very helpful.

George

[Joit]

I guess now the final Solution is Aluminum sulfate hydrate, what seems like is an Extract from Alum.
Potassium Alum was earlier used for tanning, but they now replaced it with Aluminium sulfate, probatly because it works better?
We use here Aluminium sulfat too, it is used beside of tanning as insulating salt for Nicotin stains, or other critical stains, or to neutralize the ground before you paint mineral Underground.
I guess i could buy it at a specialty Shop or at Fleebay. But anyway, i ordered now 1 kg of Pottasium Alum, because it was actually cheaper, should do the same, i can use it at last anyway as styptic, and because the salesgirl was so pretty.
I may need to use a higher concentration for the Mix, but at last, it should do the same, hopefully Potassium will not a mess with the Lead in the Batterie.

[blackchisel97]

I guess now the final Solution is Aluminum sulfate hydrate, what seems like is an Extract from Alum.
Potassium Alum was earlier used for tanning, but they now replaced it with Aluminium sulfate, probatly because it works better?
We use here Aluminium sulfat too, it is used beside of tanning as insulating salt for Nicotin stains, or other critical stains, or to neutralize the ground before you paint mineral Underground.
I guess i could buy it at a specialty Shop or at Fleebay. But anyway, i ordered now 1 kg of Pottasium Alum, because it was actually cheaper, should do the same, i can use it at last anyway as styptic, and because the salesgirl was so pretty. -
I may need to use a higher concentration for the Mix, but at last, it should do the same, hopefully Potassium will not a mess with the Lead in the Batterie.

Joit, check my link few posts up. They have good price and shop free in US.
I didn't check mailbox yet but hopefully my order will arrive soon. I think that SO4 part plays important role in our project.

Thanks
Vtech

[Joit]

Joit, check my link few posts up. They have good price and shop free in US.
I didn't check mailbox yet but hopefully my order will arrive soon. I think that SO4 part plays important role in our project.

Thanks
Vtech

Thanks Vtech.
Seriously, sometimes you dont wanna know what you eat or the Industry use for the Taste.

From an other Page 'Poisons'

Harmful to the environment, especially for fish. Slightly hazardous to water

Characteristics: The white, shiny crystals or powder that is not combustible. On combustion or on heating the substance decomposes, forming toxic fumes (sulfur oxides). In an aqueous solution of the substance is a medium strong acid. It reacts with alkali. Many metals are attacked in the presence of water.

Symptoms: The substance can be taken orally or by inhalation and irritating to the skin, eyes and respiratory tract. In an oral intake of the substance is corrosive. Even at a temperature of 20 ° C, it comes very quickly to a toxic contamination of the air. An exposure of the eyes and / or the skin can be recognized by redness and pain. In the eyes burns can occur. After oral ingestion, the patient shows nausea, vomiting, a burning sensation and abdominal pain. Intake by inhalation leads to sore throat, a cough and dyspnea.

Measures: The patient can be saved with self-contained breathing from the contaminated environment. Each patient receives at least four liters of oxygen per minute. Contaminated clothing is removed and the affected skin is thoroughly rinsed with water. In an action on the eye is to anesthetize it and rinse thoroughly. The induction of vomiting is contraindicated. To reduce the corrosive effect of the patient should get a drink about 300 ml of water. With this amount of the esophagus is rinsed off. Dilution to change the pH value is not possible. All other measures are symptomatic. Clinical monitoring must be done in any case.

Precautions: The skin and eyes must be protected with appropriate protective materials. When personal protective respiratory equipment must have at least one P2 filter.

It seems like, Florists use it too to sour the Ground, so its maybe also available at a market garden.

[blackchisel97]

My ordered alum just arrived, together with deliciously smelling vanilla beans and herb mix (they were free gifts from supplier). I already flushed one battery and I'll get the alum mix done tonight. I'm also planning to make a cake with some vanilla flavor and apple/pear. I'll update on both

Thanks
Vtech

[blackchisel97]

Cake is coming well but I need to flush battery with water again and let it sit overnight. After filling with 10% alum solution battery was sitting at 8.53V. After an hour I started to smell SO2 and dragged battery outside. Normally, there should be some hydrogen released but not SO2 and not that intense. Unless I took wrong water container I didn't have that problem before.

Vtech

[Joit]

I have now converted 2 SLA Batteries, i opened them and saw, that most dont have Gel in it, looks more like normal Battery Cells, the Valves are 2 Gum Corks. I used 2 ½ Spoons Aluminium Sulfat at one big Cup of Destilled Water, ¼ Liter. Both actually did charge before to 12V, just one of them didnt keep a lot charge anymore.
Now i refilled them, charged them with my SSG, and both have about 12,30 Volts and light a 5 Watt Bulb easy. I think it worked for both. i got some other bad Batteries, but i think the Cells are Damaged, so its may better, to take Batteries, what at last hold still some charge and have a Voltage around 12 Volt. Any other are maybe only a 'good Try'.


Blackchisel, i think a part from it is the Solution itself smells.
Otherwise, the Lead Plates have a So2 coating, not sure, if yours been damaged, and fall apart, but as i said, i have some smell at the Solution itself too.

[blackchisel97]

I have now converted 2 SLA Batteries, i opened them and saw, that most dont have Gel in it, looks more like normal Battery Cells, the Valves are 2 Gum Corks. I used 2 ½ Spoons Aluminium Sulfat at one big Cup of Destilled Water, ¼ Liter. Both actually did charge before to 12V, just one of them didnt keep a lot charge anymore.
Now i refilled them, charged them with my SSG, and both have about 12,30 Volts and light a 5 Watt Bulb easy. I think it worked for both. i got some other bad Batteries, but i think the Cells are Damaged, so its may better, to take Batteries, what at last hold still some charge and have a Voltage around 12 Volt. Any other are maybe only a 'good Try'.


Blackchisel, i think a part from it is the Solution itself smells.
Otherwise, the Lead Plates have a So2 coating, not sure, if yours been damaged, and fall apart, but as i said, i have some smell at the Solution itself too.

Thanks for the update I flushed battery again and filled with new solution but strong suffocating smell forced me to stop. During the first time SO2 was so intense that I grabbed a respirator while moving battery outside.
The only way that SO2 maybe produced in such scale is during electrolysis of strong sulfuric acid and alum. Weak acid presence will not yield SO2 but H2. Since my battery was thoroughly washed the only explanation to me was deposit of sulfur compound which did "adopt" oxygen and formed SO2 gas released into the air. I decided to dissect the battery and what I found inside was that plates were much worst condition then I thought.
This was a bad battery to begin with ( accepting charge but leaking) but I just want to try it anyhow before discarding. It has no shorted cells and has been treated with radiant. Without doing autopsy I wouldn't know how badly those cells were deteriorated. I'm preparing another one which should be ready tomorrow. I also got some lead and I want to make small cells and see what happens on the surface with conventional and radiant charging in alum electrolyte.

Thanks
Vtech

[FRC]

Update

I have not watched the video yet but am very interested in your results with the bad alum battery. I have an alum battery that did not recover and would not work as a bad battery. I was thinking to try putting a bit of battery acid back into it to see if that would make it work as a bad battery. Do not know if it will work. Any information from your trial will be very helpful.

George

For those not following the 3 Battery generating system thread. I now have the alum battery working with the system. So it was not a lost cause after all. In fact it is a
better "bad battery" that is required for the system than the regular lead acid ones.
To understand what I am talking about check out the thread.

George

[Joit]

I measured the Voltage today again from both Batteries, one have lost 0,01Volt, the other 0,02 Volt at one Day- which i think is actually not to bad.
An other 26 AH SLA Batterie did drop down to 4 Volt and now stay there, i think, its a old one, overcharged and boiled much Times.
But when i try to charge it with a SSG, the Resistance at the charge Side is more like, as if the Batterie has shorted Plates. i guess its a Candidate for the Trashcan at all.

[totoalas]

Aluminum Sulfate dodecahydrate

synonyms alum, Aluminum potassium sulfate, kalinite,potassium alum, Aluminum potassiun salt

This crystal used in pools as positive charged ions to attract negative ions to form molecules for use in sand filtration....

Is the same alum that can be used in lead acid batteries.....

1/10 ratio is it the correct dilution ???

please advise .... any help is welcome

Want to explore this new electrolyte as i am in the process of collecting 1 1/2 yr old truck batteries for rejuvination with ss charger / solar

Another idea from another thread is to aerate the cells using aquarium aerators to constntly flush the plates and prevent sulfation





thanks

totoalas