3 Battery Generating System

[CrystalDipoleMatrix]

Rewinding of the original motor to collect back spikes

@ Turion: On your 3rd point you do mention about recovery from the motor to the primary. 1: You could rewind your motor with 2 wires instead of 1 wire. 2: You could pulse the positive of the primary to the positive of the motor. 3: Take the 2nd winding and put a diode for recovery. But there is a big problem: Its very difficult to recover the primary with this technique because of the motor. There is a swiching in polarity inside for the torque. It's alternating poles, north/south/north/south. You could take a charging battery and connect it with the 2nd winding. It will work great this way. Or you could simply pulse the positive of the motor without changing anything in the motor. Then, make a magneto all NORTH POLES OUT with 1 thick wire and big cores. Put all the current coils in series. Make ajustements for the LC circuit to be resonnant (currents coils= inductance=L/variable capacitor in parallel with the coils= capacitance=C). Finally, pulse the magneto (+ of the cap to the primary) OUT OF PHASE with the motor pulses. I think the magic number is 23 degree after the top dead center of the cores.

[Matthew Jones]

@ Turion: On your 3rd point you do mention about recovery from the motor to the primary. 1: You could rewind your motor with 2 wires instead of 1 wire. 2: You could pulse the positive of the primary to the positive of the motor. 3: Take the 2nd winding and put a diode for recovery. But there is a big problem: Its very difficult to recover the primary with this technique because of the motor. There is a swiching in polarity inside for the torque. It's alternating poles, north/south/north/south. You could take a charging battery and connect it with the 2nd winding. It will work great this way. Or you could simply pulse the positive of the motor without changing anything in the motor. Then, make a magneto all NORTH POLES OUT with 1 thick wire and big cores. Put all the current coils in series. Make ajustements for the LC circuit to be resonnant (currents coils= inductance=L/variable capacitor in parallel with the coils= capacitance=C). Finally, pulse the magneto (+ of the cap to the primary) OUT OF PHASE with the motor pulses. I think the magic number is 23 degree after the top dead center of the cores.

I built many motor, that do exactly what you are saying, both conventional and unconventional.

And mind ya'll everyones free to do what they want, but testing what the motor is returning to the system is easy.
Use an amp meter on both side. If they are equal then nothing is being returned. If the first one closest to the battery is half that of the one leaving the motor then you have return power, but will only show up under pulse situation as conventional motor is steady pulling current.
But more than likely if the first one is higher and the second lower the power is passing through the motor. The resistance of the motor's counter emf response is knocking the current down, and nothing is being collected from it. Normal motor interaction.

So why does it not consume?

The spikes in the beginning may bring the dead batteries impedance down so that the motor can start but that is the extent of those spikes. They cannot be used as power immediately and they do contain enough current to redirect the Ions in the fluid back to the positive plates to start the charging process.

So IN MY OPINION we are left 2 choices. The dead battery is somehow either flipping the time contained in the current and returning back to the battery in a way that is not visible to the meters.
Or it is using the positive potential to create a negative potential and return it to the battery on the negative pole.
This latter can be tested. If we eliminate it as a possibility then we have genuine mystery.

Matt

[clueless]

I don't think what I saw today is normal

You all be the judge. I haven't run any tests since Friday (rained me out) until just a few moments ago when I did a quick 30 minute run.
P1 13.07v, P2 12.58 v and the A1 (origional 3 BGS) .4v.
I was curious as to what I could do with the generator output of 2nd motor. I connected the motor and as usual it didn't start right away, this with no load on the A. The generator output was 10v and I hooked up my funky inverter up and the gen v rose to 12.8.
I had a 12 volt lawn and garden dead battery just sitting there not connected to anything. It was a bad battery that I couldn't get to charge and I decided to see what happened if I connected the gen output to that 4th battery.
For some reason the gen output jumped to 27 volts and all 4 batteries showed in the 25-26 volt range, even the A. I actually loaded down the inverter to slow it down cause at one point I was concerned with motor speed and voltage rising and bowing something up.
I just went and checked the batteries abot 20 minutes after I shut it down both Ps are back down to where they started and the A and the other bad bat are above their starting voltages.
I didn't place a load across the 4th bat as I ran out of leads but it occurs to me if you had 3 bat in series (36V) and you connected gen output to a bad bat then you might have 36 volts on all the batteries. But I'm not going to that. I will try a load on that 4th bat hopefully tommorow (if it doesn't rain).
And I did do a quick test to see what happened if I connected gen output to the A. This was very brief but I disconnected the motor from P1 and it kept running and I quickly shut it down as I don't have any diodes, resistors or anything electronic in it and I didn't want to do any damage. And I didn't.
Somehow connecting the gen leads to a 4th separate dead bat upped the voltage from 12+ to 25+ across the system.
Maybe somebody else can test this and verify.
I'm not in position to do much but I'll do what I can.

[Turion]

Just to be clear.
You had the inverter hooked to A2 (The third battery in the original 3 battery setup)
You are running a second motor connected to the first motor by chain or direct shaft to shaft connection?
While the inverter was STILL connected, but with no load on it....
You took the output of the generator and connected it to a fourth dead battery and the voltages on ALL batteries went up? The motor/generator is one of the Razor scooter motors? So you hooked the positive (red) wire to the positive of the 4th battery?

Dave

[clueless]

Dave I assume your query was at me

I connected pos output to pos of bat 4 and neg to neg off the 2nd razor motor leads to a 4th bad battery that was in now way connected to the system except throught this motor free-wheeling off the 1st razor motor.
And yes the voltage in all four batteries, the three origional and the 4th off the leads on the 2nd motor, went to 25+volts and continued to rise. I drew down the voltage by placing loads on bat 3 or A 1 in a 3 BGS.
At this point I simply don't have space, meters, and wiring to test farther.
What amazes me is the volts on all 4 bats stabilized at 24+ volts; double the voltage under the old system. But as I say I'm sure if I hd not put enough a stabilizing load on the inverter off A 1 but what the voltage would have continued to rise on all 4 bats.
-rg

[Turion]

Clueless,
Trying to charge a bad battery puts a load on the generator, which in turn puts a load on the motor. When you increase the load on the motor, the ability of (original) battery three (now A2) to accept more loads goes up. When you add no more loads, it doesn't "Know" what to do with this extra voltage, so this increase can spill out of (the original) battery three (now A2) and go to your primaries. This is the situation I talked about once before where my primaries got up to 18 volts and I ran out of the room because I was afraid they were going to explode. So I'd say you need to increase the load on (the original) battery 3 (now A2) to make sure this kind of thing does not happen. But this is a GOOD situation to be in. Keep alternating adding loads first to (the original) battery 3 (now A2) and then to the generator. See how far you can take it while watching that the voltage on your primaries stays a little over the 12.8 volts you want, but doesn't climb TOO high and risk damaging your batteries. I would also measure the output of your generator (without battery 4 connected) to see if it is 12 volts as it should be, or 24 as battery 4 indicated. Then I would monitor it occasionally to make sure that as the motor increases because of loads on the inverter (original battery 3, now A2) you aren't putting out TOO much voltage to the battery.

Dave

[clueless]

Dave thanks for the reply

I AM Cluesless about electronic circuits. I am talking here about your origional 3BGS system with 2 razor motors. The 1st motor is connected via a chain to the 2nd motor which produces voltage (2nd motor). This voltage and amps fluctate in accordance with the load on bat 3 or the A1. More load on the inverter (bat 3 /A1) more volts and amps produced on the generator (2nd motor).
What I am referring to here is connecting the leads of the 2nd motor/gen to a 4th bat that is dead and not connected in any way to the 3BGS that results in 24+Volts across all the batteries (including this 4th bat) and seems to keep rising except to load A1/bat3 or inverter to keep it (voltage) down. What I didn't try is a load on this separate (4th bat) as I have run out of leads. This was not expected, reading 25+volts on a 12 volt battery and holding or rising without a load on the inverter.
Dave I loaded all I could but the voltage remained at above 25 volts, all across the system on each bat.

If someone has the space and meters to verify I sure will appreciate it. I can't give you the amp draw it was all I could do to monitor the voltage on 4 bats and keep the the voltage down by loading the inverter.

Clueless,
Trying to charge a bad battery puts a load on the generator, which in turn puts a load on the motor. When you increase the load on the motor, the ability of (original) battery three (now A2) to accept more loads goes up. When you add no more loads, it doesn't "Know" what to do with this extra voltage, so this increase can spill out of (the original) battery three (now A2) and go to your primaries. This is the situation I talked about once before where my primaries got up to 18 volts and I ran out of the room because I was afraid they were going to explode. So I'd say you need to increase the load on (the original) battery 3 (now A2) to make sure this kind of thing does not happen. But this is a GOOD situation to be in. Keep alternating adding loads first to (the original) battery 3 (now A2) and then to the generator. See how far you can take it while watching that the voltage on your primaries stays a little over the 12.8 volts you want, but doesn't climb TOO high and risk damaging your batteries. I would also measure the output of your generator (without battery 4 connected) to see if it is 12 volts as it should be, or 24 as battery 4 indicated. Then I would monitor it occasionally to make sure that as the motor increases because of loads on the inverter (original battery 3, now A2) you aren't putting out TOO much voltage to the battery.

Dave

[Turion]

That's exactly the setup I figured you had and was trying to describe to you. Everything you have said about it makes perfect sense when you have a balanced system. When you do, you have power all over the place and the hard part is knowing what to do with it. It is exactly what I had in my original setup that allowed me to run all kinds of HEAVY loads for days and days and days without EVER draining the primary batteries. I had to make sure I had LARGE enough loads to try and keep the voltages down on all my batteries. I even ended up connecting things to batteries one and two to keep them from overcharging. . It was like I had a RUNAWAY generator. The ONLY part that has me a little puzzled is why the 24 volts on battery 4, unless the output of the generator has increased to 24 volts (voltage produced by generator+ voltage within battery=24), and then that makes sense too.

If I were you, I would NOT change ANY PART of this setup. I would continue to do some small runs with it. Maybe when Matt has time to get back on here he will have some suggestions on some tests you can run, and since he is close, perhaps he will run up and see what you have. It sounds to me like you have hit upon the right combination of batteries and motor that gets into some kind of resonance like my original system did. It is what I have been trying to do for four years now! I envy you man!!

I would suggest you be very careful because each battery becomes a source of a LOT of power, and you need to monitor their voltages carefully every time you run it, and attach loads to try and keep their voltages down. When mine was up and running like that I felt like I could hook up a small city to it and the thing would just keep putting out power.

Whatever you do, don't take ANYTHING apart.

Dave

[clueless]

Dave that is what I don't understand

is why the voltage on this "extra" battery went up to 24+ volts and stayed there. Nor why the other three batteries all reflected that voltage. I do want to put a load on this odd battery to make certain this is real power.
You are right though the system when in the "zone" seems both explosive and unlimited.
I also have a mismatched set of batteries running this. P1 is a truck 750cca, P2 is a car 450cca, my 3rd bat or A1 is close to the 750 cca and the 4th bat is the lawn and garden tractor pretty close to the 2nd bat. I don't know if that is even related.
But I welcome any suggestions or if Matt wants to look at this crude setup (or anybody else for that matter) I'll welcome it. LOL just need to pick a dry time as this thing stays under a tarp during rain.
I appreciate all the encouragement I've gotten on this thread. I also have to add that there does not seem to be a lot of ego conflict here. I appreciate that spirit.



"The ONLY part that has me a little puzzled is why the 24 volts on battery 4, unless the output of the generator has increased to 24 volts, and then that makes sense."

[LutherG]

Pics please

is why the voltage on this "extra" battery went up to 24+ volts and stayed there. Nor why the other three batteries all reflected that voltage. I do want to put a load on this odd battery to make certain this is real power.
You are right though the system when in the "zone" seems both explosive and unlimited.
I also have a mismatched set of batteries running this. P1 is a truck 750cca, P2 is a car 450cca, my 3rd bat or A1 is close to the 750 cca and the 4th bat is the lawn and garden tractor pretty close to the 2nd bat. I don't know if that is even related.
But I welcome any suggestions or if Matt wants to look at this crude setup (or anybody else for that matter) I'll welcome it. LOL just need to pick a dry time as this thing stays under a tarp during rain.
I appreciate all the encouragement I've gotten on this thread. I also have to add that there does not seem to be a lot of ego conflict here. I appreciate that spirit.



"The ONLY part that has me a little puzzled is why the 24 volts on battery 4, unless the output of the generator has increased to 24 volts, and then that makes sense."

Hello Clueless,

Would you mind taking a few pictures of this setup and posting them for us please? And please don't change a thing as David asked. We really need to look at this in detail for replication...

Cheers and congrats!

Luther

[LutherG]

inverter specs

Hello again clueless,

I understand there's something different about your inverter too? You may have posted about this and I've missed it but would you please also list the make/model of it too?

Many thanks!

Luther

[clueless]

The Inverter

has "Tripp Lite" written above "Power Verter." Model # is PV400. It is a 400 watt inverter but is about three times the size and weight of a normal inverter. It is a box like steel structure with fins (air flow?)around it. It doesn't seem to care about how much or little voltage you feed it. My friend who lent it to me describes it as an electrical not an electronic inverter.
I'll have to find the camera (it is here somewhere) but the setup is the same as Dave's origional description with 2 razor motor connected via a chain and the output of the second motor connected to a separate dead battery (not connected to the system in any way except for the motor/generator leads) to it. When I did all the batteries jumped up to 24 volts and rising with the motors also increasing in speed. I used a load on the inverter and bat #3 to slow down and stabilize the motor speed and the voltages.
It happened so unexpendently and quickly it was all I could do to keep track of 4 batteries the loads and the inverter. Then the rains came...

Hello again clueless,

I understand there's something different about your inverter too? You may have posted about this and I've missed it but would you please also list the make/model of it too?

Many thanks!

Luther

[LutherG]

Electrical not Electronic...

has "Tripp Lite" written above "Power Verter." Model # is PV400. It is a 400 watt inverter but is about three times the size and weight of a normal inverter. It is a box like steel structure with fins (air flow?)around it. It doesn't seem to care about how much or little voltage you feed it. My friend who lent it to me describes it as an electrical not an electronic inverter.
I'll have to find the camera (it is here somewhere) but the setup is the same as Dave's origional description with 2 razor motor connected via a chain and the output of the second motor connected to a separate dead battery (not connected to the system in any way except for the motor/generator leads) to it. When I did all the batteries jumped up to 24 volts and rising with the motors also increasing in speed. I used a load on the inverter and bat #3 to slow down and stabilize the motor speed and the voltages.
It happened so unexpendently and quickly it was all I could do to keep track of 4 batteries the loads and the inverter. Then the rains came...

Hi Clueless,

That is what I was hoping to hear "Electrical not Electronic". Thanks for the make/Model for the inverter. Maybe we can find a wiring diagram or service manual and see what the innards look like there...

So it sounds like you had loads both directly off battery 3 as well as off the inverter on battery 3 - is that correct?

Thanks very much for sharing your results,

Luther

[LutherG]

Clueless, I sent you a PM...

[blackchisel97]

Hello everyone,
I re-assembled my setup (according to Matt's diagram) and eliminated most wire clip connections. I spent half a day looking for some batteries and among few restorable got 85Ah Interstate sitting on 3V. I have everything hooked up together and running. What amazes me is that I still see 25V spikes across secondary under the load at 120kHz (and they're bigger than those at much lower range) and there is a response in all batteries. It must have something to do with resonant freq. of them (I think).
I have a scope across secondary and I'm trying to find a connection between the wave shape and batteries behavior.
I use 20W bulb as a load.
Will resume testing tomorrow. I AM having fun

Cheers
Vtech