Friction Steam Boiler

[rickoff]

Reply to Jan H

Hi Jan,

You are speaking of a Cavitation Heater. That device works well, but is relying on turbulence in water to cause the friction that creates steam. Lloyd's device uses direct contact friction, and appears to be an even more powerful concept. The manufacturer's of the cavitation heater make it clear that theirs is not an over-unity device, as was claimed in the YouTube videos. In their applications, an electric motor turns the cavitation heater's shaft. It does not produce a high enough volume of steam to make it a self-runner, powered by a steam engine. Lloyd's device, though, can actually do this, and with steam to spare.

Thanks for your interest,

Rick

[rickoff]

2nd phone conversation with Lloyd Tanner today

Hi folks,

I just completed my second conversation with Lloyd Tanner, and have some more information to share with you concerning his Friction Boiler.

Please refer to the diagram shown at the following link for a clearer understanding of the terms that I use to describe the parts I am speaking of: Trough Assembly.jpg - Windows Live SkyDrive

About the trough: The purpose of the trough is to house the apparatus used in generating heat from friction. The trough is not completely airtight as constructed by Lloyd, but the trough covers do have a close fit to the trough to help contain heat that is generated inside the trough. It would appear, from watching the video of Lloyd's device ( Lloyd Tanner - Friction Boiler ) that steam is generated by dropping water on top of the hot metal hub which is spinning at the center of the trough, but this is not actually the case. All steam is generated inside the steam vessel box, located directly above the hub. The metal hub is only used to gather and dissipate heat from friction caused by the oak 4 x 4's pressing against the hub. So there is no pressure inside the trough, other than from heat expansion of the air inside. Thus, while the trough does need to be of rigid construction, it does not have to be constructed from heavy gauge material.

About the wood: Lloyd tells me that he chose oak because it was readily available to him. He uses green wood - not dried wood. As I stated earlier, that seems to make sense. The moisture in the wood helps to prevent ignition of the wood.

About feeding of the wood, and maintaining a steady friction force:
The wood is placed on top of a "carriage" assembly in the bottom of the trough that allows the wood to move towards the metal hub with ease. Lloyd didn't explain the composition of the carriage itself, but it could simply be some mounted rollers or some steel balls sandwiched between sockets in two plates. The carriage itself does not move, or it would be forced against the metal hub. Angle iron is used at the back end of the wood to hold it from swaying side to side, and the angle iron would best have a short tail that rides a groove to keep it centered in the trough. A cable would be attached to the front end of the tail, and lay in the groove ahead of the tail. The cable would loop over a pulley and be attached to a 10 pound weight which would freely move within the vertical stand constructed below the center of the trough. The 10 pound weight, pulling the cable attached to the angle iron, is what keeps the force equal at all times, pressing the wood against the metal hub until a stop block in the groove prevents further travel so that the angle iron cannot touch the metal hub. The steady blocks, as seen in the diagram, are used to keep the front ends of the wood pieces aligned to the center of the rotating metal hub. Otherwise, the rotation would push the front end sideways, in the direction of rotational contact.

About the steam vessel box: The steam vessel box is a fully enclosed unit that is mounted above the opening left over when the trough covers are closed. The bottom of the steam vessel box is situated 1/4 inch above the spinning metal hub. As the hub heats up from the friction of the wood pressed against it, the heat rises and is concentrated against the underside of the steam vessel box. Inside the box, a controlled water drip takes place. As the water droplets meet the hot lower inside surface of the box, they instantly explode into steam, and pressure builds within the box. A pressure gauge should be mounted on the steam vessel, as well as an over-pressure relief valve to allow excess steam pressure to escape. When the steam pressure and temperature reaches an adequate level, an outlet valve is opened at the top of the steam vessel box, and steam is then delivered to a steam engine input port, or to the circulating radiator or baseboard heating loop of a home heating system.

About the water delivery system for the steam vessel: Water entering the drip system inside the steam vessel is gravity fed from an enclosed container which Lloyd refers to as the "water reservoir." This would ideally be located close to, and slightly above, the steam vessel. The water inside the water reservoir must be at the same pressure as the steam inside the steam vessel, or it will not flow into the water dripper assembly. To accomplish this pressure equalization, two devices are utilized. First, a one-way check valve should be used in the water dripper supply pipe which comes from the water reservoir. This prevents steam pressure within the steam vessel from forcing water back into the water reservoir. Secondly, another pipe connects the steam vessel to the top of the water reservoir to allow steam pressure to equalize within the two chambers. The water reservoir is not filled completely with water. An air space is allowed for, above the water level in the reservoir, to accommodate some steam. This incoming steam is what equalizes pressure, and it also helps to pre-heat the water inside the reservoir. Eventually, of course, all the water inside the reservoir would be used up by the drip assembly, so the water level inside the reservoir must be raised before this happens. To accomplish this, a separate enclosed container, which Lloyd refers to as the "water hopper," is utilized. Ideally, the water hopper should be located higher than the water reservoir. I will not be absolutely certain how Lloyd accomplishes the water transfer between the water hopper and the water reservoir until I receive the drawing that he sent to me via US Mail today, but it works something like the following: The water hopper is filled by a supply line which comes from your household water line. A back-check valve is located in the water supply line, before the hopper, so that water may not be forced backwards through the supply line. A bleeder valve at the top of the hopper would allow air inside the enclosed container to be displaced by the water entering from the supply line. The water level inside the hopper is controlled by a float valve which shuts the supply line flow off, and which could also be utilized to trigger a shut off of the bleeder valve when the appropriate pre-determined level is reached. After the supply line and bleeder valve are shut, and if the water reservoir requires more water, a control valve closes the steam line between the steam vessel and the water reservoir. Next, a valve opens in one of the two lines between the water reservoir and the water hopper to allow steam pressure from the reservoir to enter the top of the water hopper. This reduces pressure inside the water reservoir, while increasing pressure in the hopper. When pressure is equalized in the hopper and reservoir, water flows out the lower part of the hopper and into the reservoir by gravity feed. A one-way valve in the lower line would prevent backflow into the bottom of the hopper at all times. The maintaining of desired water levels in the water hopper and the water reservoir can be something that occurs rather continuously, instead of at widely spaced intervals, much the same as the fuel level in a carburetor is controlled. The speed of replenishment would be aided by using 3/4" or larger piping lines between the hopper and the reservoir, versus using smaller sizes.

About the electric motor used in the video: Lloyd used the electric motor to spin the metal friction hub for all experiments, development, and demonstrations of this device. He says he used a 1 horsepower, 110 volt AC motor which turned the hub at about 1700 rpm. This sounds like a common induction motor, which would be rated at 1800 rpm. The low horsepower rating of the motor demonstrates the fact that little drag is actually caused by the friction, but a 2 or 3 hp motor would probably be desirable to allow extended running times without overheating. The motor does not need to run continuously, and can be triggered by a thermostatic switch to shut off when the steam reaches a certain temperature and pressure level. A pulley on the motor shaft drives a belt, which in turn drives a pulley on the hub shaft.

About the hub and hub shaft: The shaft is 1 inch diameter steel, and is mounted in upper and lower bearings and attached to the bottom of the hub. The hub is made from a 5 inch diameter piece of "thick walled pipe," which is capped by top and bottom plates that are welded to the pipe. The overall height of the hub would be 4 inches or more, to provide a friction surface for the 4 inch square cut oak wood. The hub is elevated to a position where its top surface is 1/4 inch from the bottom of the steam vessel.

Lloyd is sending me some detailed drawings and explanations that will help us to better understand the valving and drip system that he is employing in his water boiler, and I expect to receive these within the next couple of days. I will post a link to these as soon as I receive and upload them to my Sky Drive. This second conversation with Lloyd makes everything much clearer to envision and understand, and with the drawings in hand it should provide us with enough basic information to build replications.

Best to all,

Rick

[Jetijs]

Thank you Rick for posting this, now I understand everything.
I still think that my oil heat transferring method could be more efficient than transferring the heat just through an 1/4" air gap. Plus you will make additional heat from the oil turbulences and friction against the cylinder walls. I have not tried that, but maybe you can suggest this to Loyd?

Thanks,
Jetijs

[rickoff]

Reply to Jetijs:

Hi Jetijs,

I'm glad the last post made everything clearly understood. I too think that the heat transfer from the hub to the steam vessel may possibly be improved upon, as some of the heat would appear to be escaping to, and dissipated within, the trough. Of course if you are using the device to heat a home then that doesn't matter, unless the unit is located in a shed or garage that is separated from your home. Lloyd did suggest that it may be best to locate it that way because of the fact that the friction does generate some noise that would tend to be undesirable. Whether placed in a basement, boiler room, or a garage, Lloyd says it would be wise to soundproof the installation area as much as possible.

The heat transfer method, using oil, does work nicely, and that may be worth experimenting with if using the hub design as shown in the video. The horizontal roller design, that Lloyd is currently working on, would not be as easily adapted. I did mention the oil transfer idea to Lloyd during our telephone conversation. You did show a diagram, in post # 12 of this thread, showing the basic concept. Of course the air space shown open at the top would have to be sealed to retain the heat generated, and to prevent oil from escaping. The steam vessel box would have to be mounted higher than in Lloyd's device, and the bottom would be a cylindrical projection entering the cylinder that would be attached to the hub top. Perhaps you could toss the idea around and come up with a nice drawing showing how all of this might best be accomplished. Another, easier method, but perhaps less effective, would be to build the hub an inch or two higher than the design, and simply position a sleeve over the top of the hub which would be connected to the underside of the steam vessel. Since the hub is actually a pipe, the top does not need to be capped off as in Lloyd's design, and you would have a direct heat conduit. Many ways to handle the heat transfer, but you are certainly correct in your thinking - retaining heat that would otherwise be lost (to the steam generating process) could make this already amazing device even more efficient.

The trough assembly diagram, which I posted a link to, is just for illustrating the basic assembly. I'll post additional drawings soon to show more detailed views of the components, and will work out some approximated dimensions for a build. Once that is done, I hope that someone will step forward and work up some nice CAD drawings with 3D, cutaway, and exploded views. Everone wanting to build one of these devices will undoubtedly have some ideas of their own for improvements, and I do hope that this information will be shared freely. In any case, let's keep everything together in this thread so that all is easily found.

Best to all,

Rick

[theremart]

Rick,

Does this guy want to patent this, or is he willing to share with the world?

Thank you for giving all the details you have. I am extremely interested in his second device.

Would like to know the downsides of this device, I imagine you would have to get approval for running a steam device for local authorities... But that said, looks so promising especially using green wood.

Mart

[FuzzyTomCat]

To Rick

Hi Rick,

The information that you have already shared is more than I ever expected. It seems that "Lloyd Tanner's" friction boiler is becoming more popular than I ever imaged, he may very well go into the history books for his invention.

The motor in his video looks like a AC induction split phase capacitor start which should have the high starting torque required for this application, and a 1 horsepower would only require a 20 amp 120 volt circuit.

Has he indicated the operating pressure of this unit, it would help in the type of bearing assembly used in the trough construction. The bearing would have to withstand the operating temperature and pressure so as not to loose the lubrication with a integral lip seal or a added one for sealing.

This device is so simple similar to a DC Motor set of brushes running on a commutator, Lloyd Tanner definitely has my gratitude for his hard work and innovation.

Thank's for your efforts,
Glen

[rickoff]

A reminder to experimenters:

Just a reminder that although we are discussing facts as related to Lloyd Tanner's original full scale working prototype, as seen in the video, it is very strongly suggested that anyone considering a replication of the device start with a hobby size scaled down project. This way, you will have something equally as good for experimentation and demonstration purposes, and any experimental design changes will be far less costly and complicated to perform. A small project is the best way to proceed with this while discovering and learning from this technology. Instead of oak 4x4's, you can use some small diameter hardwood dowels against a small, revolving metal roller to produce the friction effect. Maple dowels, the size of piano hammer shanks, would be ideal. Think small! And if you decide to implement a steam engine, start with a simple hobby type engine such as can readily be found on Ebay. You can buy one for about $50, and later you could resell it for about the same if you want to.

I can't emphasize enough the need for safety, especially if utilizing steam in your experimentation, and I feel it is important to restate what I said about that in post #8 of this thread. Pressurized steam can be very dangerous, and every possible precaution should be utilized to minimize the hazards. Use only enough heat as needed to develop sufficient steam to drive the engine at a reasonably effective speed, and employ over-pressure relief valving and automatic steamer shut-off to prevent excessive pressure buildup. A steam accident can scald, burn, scar, disfigure, and even kill you. Be aware of the dangers, and stay safe. Let that be your #1 priority.

Rick

[rickoff]

Replies:

Jetijs - In thinking more about the heat transfer between the hub top and the bottom of the steam vessel, I'm wondering just how effective the oil cannister idea would really be. It is an idea worth some experimenting with, and it does work to produce heat by cavitation effect, but if used in Lloy'ds device it is just possible that it may have a cooling effect. It's an unknown factor, and of course it will also complicate a build. For all we know, the 1/4" air gap in Lloyd's device may actually play a part in superheating the bottom of the steam vessel. The gap, on top of the spinning hub, may create a vortex - like a mini tornado - that actually sucks the heat upwards. Lloyd probably chose a 1/4" gap for a reason. He could have assembled the unit with a 1/16" gap if that would have worked better, and probably did experiment with the positioning for best results.

Mart - Lloyd didn't mention anything about patents. He has a lot of ideas for improvements, but feels that he doesn't have the expertise to bring all of this about. Lloyd says he is at the point now where he feels that he should turn this over to someone, or some group, that could develop and improve on the device and get it into production. I told Lloyd that our interest is to learn all that we can about his technology, and to share all info and R&D in an open source environment here in this forum for the benefit of all mankind. So he knows this, but was still happy to provide useful information and sketches to us. I'm just glad that we could learn all that we already have on it before TBP swoops in. The last thing that Lloyd said to me in our 2nd conversation was, "Go ahead and build it, and see what you can do with it, and spread the word about this to as many people as you can."

Glen - Lloyd hasn't performed a lot of measurements related to operating pressure, but did say he has operated up to around 560 degrees. The ideal operating temperature and pressure would be determined by what you want to do with the unit - heat air to replace a hot air furnace, heat water for domestic hot water and/or a baseboard heating system, or make steam to power a steam engine. Which bearing are you refering to inside the trough assembly? The hub shaft bearings are located below the trough, where heat would not be much of a problem. Remember too that there is no pressure to contend with inside the trough. Yes, the construction is similar to brushes riding against a spinning commutator.

By building a small demonstration unit of a self-runner, you could probably get your town administrators to try a pilot project, such as a unit for heating their maintenance garage facility. With that working well, the idea could be enlarged to provide cogeneration of all heat and electrical power used by not only the maintenace department, but also to police, fire, town offices, and schools. This is exactly the idea that Lloyd's congessman is trying to get appoval for, and it could save a ton of money that would otherwise be spent on conventional heat and elecricity. Taxpayers, in turn, would also reap the benefit of lowering costs. In time, an entire town could be supplied by a single large scale device. Speaking of cogeneration, Con Edison uses 7 steam turbine power plants to supply electricity not only to all of Manhattan and beyond, but also to provide steam heat to 100,000 of Manhattan's commercial buildings and residences.

Well, guess I'd better hit the sack. Good night or good morning to you, whatever the case may be.

Best wishes,

Rick

[rickoff]

A surprise phone call today....

This morning, when I picked up and answered my ringing telephone, I was quite surprised to hear a voice, in a slow Texas drawl, saying, "Hello, this is T Boone Pickens calling." I immediately thought that he must be calling me about Lloyd's device, or the fact that we had mentioned TBP's name with some concern earlier in this thread. Before I could get a another word in, though, he continued speaking and I then realized that what I was hearing was simply a recorded message from the Pickens Plan Group asking me to become a member of their organization. They ask for your e-mail address at the end of the recorded message, and of course I didn't offer it to them. Has anyone else received one of these calls?

I should mention something else which concerns my recent phone calls with Lloyd. In both calls that I made to him, there were loud clicks that I could hear at regular intervals. This was caused by some interference in the phone connection, and definitely not background noise. I have never heard this in conversations with other people. It made me wonder if perhaps our conversation was being tapped by someone. Seems like a rather unprofessional way to go about that, though, if it is actually the case. Then again, I believe there are FCC rules about wiretapping that require an audible signal to occur at regular intervals when a telephone conversation is being recorded. Has anyone else experienced this? I'm just curious. It's probably nothing. After all, we're not talking about top secret technology. The basic friction technology used in this device is common knowledge, and the processes for making and utilizing steam are well documented. The only thing about Lloyd's device that remains a mystery at this point in time is the actual mechanisms employed within his steam vessel for converting water to steam. According to Lloyd, it is unlike any conventional designs that he is aware of. Fortunately, we will soon have a better idea about these mechanisms. I have just now received Lloyd's hand drawn sketches and explanations, and will prepare them for posting later today.

Rick

[rickoff]

Sketches and info from Lloyd Tanner

Hi folks,

As stated in my earlier post today, I received the documents that Lloyd sent to me via US mail. Thank goodness we can depend on at least one of our government's institutions!

In my previous explanation of Lloyd's device, as described in post #32 of this thread, I pretty much had everything right. In the sketches that Lloyd sent, however, the "water reservoir" and "water hopper" items are the reverse of how I labeled them in post #32, so I went back in and corrected that with an edit today. I also corrected the Explanatory Document on my Sky Drive, which is basically the same as post #32. I copied Lloyds 2 sketches, and uploaded them to my Sky Drive in 100 dpi resolution, and added his comments to the Info from Lloyd file on my Sky Drive. See all of this at the following link: Lloyd Tanner's Friction Heater - Windows Live SkyDrive

Happy viewing, and best to all,

Rick

[theremart]

Thought...

I would post the pics here in a format easy to see.

[rickoff]

To Mart:

Thanks, Mart. I didn't think that I would have enough upload space left in the forums to do that. This is better for an overall rapid view. For printing, though, folks will probably prefer the individual file downloads in 8.5" x 11" full view, high-resolution format at the link given earlier.

As can be seen at the bottom of the System rear view sketch, Lloyd's plan uses a series of small rollers beneath the oak log. The bottom of the steam vessel is concave in the new friction roller assembly design, so as to partially wrap around the friction roller. The bottom is also finned, to provide multiple heat paths that surround the channeled water drips on three sides. It is clear, from looking at the Sytem side view sketch, that each of the water drip mechanism's drip holes is aligned so that each drip falls directly into its own separate channel. This, and the properly controlled rate of drip, assures that each drip is fully exploded into steam before the next drip falls into a channel.

Keep in mind that these are merely sketches, and that the relative sizes of the components are not shown in actual proportions. This is meant for illustrative purposes only, and simply to define the major components.

Rick

[theremart]

RE: Thanks

I think you will like the link of

TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting

That is what I used, much better than imageshack.com had a tip that some virus checkers report viruses from their adds, they have been found to be false positives, but TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting is the way to go....

And THANK YOU for doing all of this.

[FuzzyTomCat]

To Rick

Hey Rick,

This is some really good information on the drip system that Lloyd Tanner is using on his new device. Is he abandoning the trough design or just is expanding his research into other systems?

It appears that just by modifying the trough design to be wider just at the metal rotating hub it would be possible to extend the steam vessel box around the radius of the metal rotating hub at 90 degrees to the wood, maintaining the 1/4" or less on the top and the sides of the hub, this could add maybe 100 % more area of heat transfer to the steam vessel box.

As soon as I get some more parts rounded up I'll be starting construction on one of the rascals.

Hopefully some drawings of what I'm doing will be available as soon as I find and dust off my old drafting stuff.

Thanks,
Glen

[rickoff]

Some clarifications:

First I want to remind everyone that the sketches which Lloyd provided are representations of his newer roller design, and not the hub design as shown in the video clip. The water drip system components would be the same for both systems, excepting the bottom design of the steam vessel.

Glen - Lloyd's newer friction roller design does not abandon the trough system. The entire trough length is simply made to be as wide as the roller. This, of course, allows several pieces of wood to be aligned against the roller on either side of the trough, therefore multiplying the frictional heating effect. Lloyd's drawing only shows one piece of wood, because that is all that is needed for a simplified illustration.

For the original hub design, as seen in the video, the steam vessel design could be modified to use a waffle grid type of bottom plate with a rounded shape that would be the same diameter as the hub. I'm not certain if electric waffle maker plates have pockets on the unexposed side that correspond to the projections of the cooking side, but if so then they would make nice heat exchangers. If used, a waffle plate would serve as the inside bottom of the steam vessel. To do that, you basically cut a hole in the bottom of the steam vessel box, the same size as the waffle plate assembly, and weld the waffle plate assembly into place. Each water drip would be aligned to fall in a specific pocket of the upper waffle plate surface. This would make a simple, low cost heat exchanger, and of course many other ideas could be employed for the same purpose. I'm just thinking in terms of what would be fairly simple to accomplish, using the KISS approach.

Another thing to consider is the fact that you don't need to create steam unless you are intending to utilize a steam engine or steam turbine, and that would only be needed if you want a self-runner that is capable of driving an electric generator. Lloyds device could rather easily be adapted for home heating use either with a forced hot air heating system, or a hot water baseboard or radiator system. Usage simply for heating would not require much. Replacing, or adding to, a forced hot air heating system, would be the simplest utilization of all, and would only require setting the unit up with sheet metal ductwork above it that attaches to the existing system. For domestic hot water heating, and/or baseboard heating, the pipe used for the hub can be extended upwards several inches, and a larger diameter pipe could be placed over this with sufficient spacing between the pipes to allow for a copper tubing coil, or coils, to be wrapped around the hub pipe extension. Water inside the coil (or coils) would circulate upwards due to heat, and each coil would lead to the top of a hot water tank. Cooler water at the bottom of each tank would flow into the coil or coils to be heated. No circulation pump is needed. It's just a natural convection effect, and something that most of our grandparents, and great grandparents used for making hot water back in their time. I have used this method by wrapping a 3/4" copper tubing coil around the outside of a kerosene stove's 10" high burner assembly, and it worked great. I see no reason why it could not be easily adapted to Lloyd's device. If the outside surface of the larger pipe is well insulated, you could concentrate a lot of heat within the pipe column, and produce a lot of hot water. Peter has also suggested another method for heating water with Lloyd's device, by utilizing the interior of the hub pipe as a portion of a closed loop system. A liquid would be heated as it circulates through the interior of the hub pipe, and would then progress to a heat exchanger, which would be used to transfer the heat to a tank of water. The loop would continue back to the bottom of the hub pipe, returning cooler liquid. The liquid could be oil, if the hot water storage tank is used for baseboard heating purposes, but should not be used for domestic water heat exchange unless the heat exchanger method and construction elimates any possibility of coil contamination of water due to a possible future deterioration and leakage or rupture of the heat exchanger components. It should also be noted that if a liquid is circulated through the interior of the hub pipe, then it must enter at the bottom (and exit at the top) of the pipe while the pipe is revolving. This would require the use of couplers at the top and bottom that would allow for the rotation of the hub pipe. These couplers would add complexity to the build, and I would not suggest building your own. Couplers are manufactured for this purpose, and are called rotary unions. Peter provided me with a link where such a device can be seen: Duff-Norton, Rotary Unions, Mechanical Actuators, Screw Jacks, Linear Actuators, Ball Screw Actuators, Electromechanical Actuators, Machine Screw Actuators, Rollerscrews, SuperCylinder, Electric Cylinders
Purchasing a ready made coupler of this type would save a lot of time and hassle, but may also prove to be expensive.

These are just a few ideas to get people thinking about the possibilities for utilizing Lloyd's device for practical applications. I'm sure that many more equally good, or better, ideas will surface, and I encourage readers and experimenters to share their thoughts, methods, and results in this thread for all to see. Remember, we are at the early, or "think tank" stage of R&D for this device, and all suggestions are welcomed. The only dumb suggestion is the one that is not made known. We also welcome any questions, and will attempt to answer these to the best of our ability.

Best wishes to all,

Rick