Friction Steam Boiler

[FuzzyTomCat]

Hi all,

There is some wood that could possibly be used as a great substitute that could last a lot longer and has been used for decades in the marine industry for bearings, called "Ironwood" very dense and will sink in water its so heavy and is available. The best that I have used when I had a sailboat w/ Atomic 4-cly ICE engine is from Brazil "Caesalpinia ferrea" almost black hard as rocks. The nice thing is there are 15 varieties of Ironwood that could be used. I'll be trying some when I get to that point to see if it works or feel free to try it yourself.


Regards,
Glen

[theremart]

RE: idea.

Ok, I made a small experiment. I took a 10cm diameter steel tube, about 20cm long with 5mm thick walls and put the tube in my lathe. I set the lathe to turn on about 600RPM. Then I took a piece of wood and while the lathe was running, I pressed the piece of wood on the tube. The surface area where the wood and the tube was touching was not very big, but nevertheless I could het the tube surface to a temperature of 60 degree Celsius rather fast. Then I set my lathe on 1200RPM, this made a huge difference, I could now get the temperature up to 130 degree. And all that with just one piece of wood 5x5cm thick. There was very little wear on that piece of wood after that. I think if there were two pieces of wood pressing on the tube, there would also be more heat. So this looks promising. My only concern is whether my 2.5HP treadmill motor will be able to sustain the RPMs with friction that much. Also I did not quite understand from the video how this guy transfers the heat from the rotating roller to the steam barrel. I would try it this way:

What do you think about that?

I think you should drill holes in the center block, and go for cavitation as an experiment. Perhaps we don't even need the wood.

But I love the wood as it is very simple...

Mart

[Peter Lindemann]

Ironwood....

Hi all,

There is some wood that could possibly be used as a great substitute that could last a lot longer and has been used for decades in the marine industry for bearings, called "Ironwood" very dense and will sink in water its so heavy and is available. The best that I have used when I had a sailboat w/ Atomic 4-cly ICE engine is from Brazil "Caesalpinia ferrea" almost black hard as rocks. The nice thing is there are 15 varieties of Ironwood that could be used. I'll be trying some when I get to that point to see if it works or feel free to try it yourself.


Regards,
Glen

Glen,

Thanks for starting this thread. This is a very interesting line of research. I agree with you, if Oak works, then it is reasonable to believe that many "hard wood" species would work also. When I was a kid, my family used to visit my Grandfather's summer cottage in Northern Wisconsin. Sometimes, for fun, we would take little "outings" and go to nearby towns, like Ironwood, Michigan. That was my first introduction to Ironwood. Well, it's not called Ironwood for no reason. You can't pound a nail into it, as the nail goes in about a quarter of an inch and then just bends! To apply any fasteners to it, you have to drill and tap the holes! When you machine it, you can hold .001" tolerances easily. It's very hard and very dense. Like you said, it sinks in water.

The important idea here is that much more heat can be derived from the wood using this friction heater idea than you can get by simply burning it! That is a REVELATION in and of itself!

I think Oak would be more readily available for most people than Ironwood, and cost less too. But the idea here is that other hard woods should be tried in this process to determine empirically how well each type works.

This is great!!

Peter

[rickoff]

Thanks, Peter

The original design, as shown in the video is simplistic enough as to be duplicated after a careful review of the video, but Lloyd has made several refinements since then that make it even more productive. The use of a long, horizontal roller, and a wider trough, allows several chunks of wood to be set against the friction roller at a time, thus generating multiples of the heat and steam produced. What you see happening here is something that anyone owning a circular saw with a dull blade has already seen. The wood cuts slowly, and chars, and the saw blade gets very hot quite rapidly. As Jetijs points out, the rotational speed is an important factor, and Lloyd says 1800 to 2000 rpm seems to be an ideal rate. Very little force is needed for the friction required to heat the metal wheel or roller to a temperature high enough to convert water droplets to steam, and even less is required to maintain the temperature once reached, so a relatively low hp steam engine should do the trick for a home sized unit. The entire unit is airtight, with the covers and steam vessel mounted, so the heat and resultant steam pressure build up rapidly with no losses (except for the trough's exterior surface to air heat transfer, but this also provides heat to your home). The pressure is held within the steam vessel until Lloyd opens the valve on the front of the steam vessel, allowing steam to rush into the inlet of a steam engine, if one is utilized. Remember, the wood never actually burns - it only chars, and slowly but eventually wears down. I believe that a 3 hp steam engine would be sufficient for home heating and domestic water production. A 3 hp steam engine will put out 100,000 BTU per hour from its exhaust, about the same as a conventional oil burning home heating system boiler. Of course you could couple the exhaust to a radiator system with an electric circulator pump to distribute heat around the rooms of your house, and recycle the still warm water at the end of the radiator loop back to a tank that could be used in refilling the water hopper. Normally, a 3 hp steam engine, if using a wood fired boiler, requires about 20 pounds of hardwood per hour to produce continuous steam sufficient to run the engine, so you can see the tremendous advantage that Lloyd's setup has over conventional methods of producing steam. Imagine running almost continuously (excepting for occasional maintenance) for 5 years on just one cord of firewood. Just imagine that, and you will realize the potential for this device. With a 5 to 10 hp steam engine, you can not only provide heat and hot water for your home, but have enough reserve engine power to drive an electric generator head to provide 2.5 to 5 kw power for your household electricity needs. Those who don't require heat can convert more of the steam engine's power to generating electricity. A 3 hp steam engine will produce 1.5 kw from the shaft power, even while producing 100,000 BTU's at the exhaust, which is an adequate amount for running a refrigerator, TV, crock pot, and some lighting, while others are without electric power. So the optimal steam engine size is determined by your energy needs. It should be noted that reciprocating piston steam engines rotate much slower than steam turbines, generally in the 700 rpm range or thereabouts, so to obtain the ideal rotational speed of the friction wheel or roller, you would need a 1:3 gearing ratio. A 2,000 rpm direct drive would be at the lower end of a steam turbine's capability for rotational speed output. While turbines are expensive to buy, they are not all that complicated to build if you have access to a machine shop. Mart provided a good link for a 3 hp reciprocating engine, and a larger one too, if you decide to go that route. The link provided by Jetijs shows a really nice radial design engine. It would be great for experimentation, and probably sufficient to run a small friction heater that would at least produce domestic hot water or heat a small cabin if you are well insulated and not living in a climate having extended low temperature ranges. Edit - Here's what the builder says about this little engine: "The engine has a 1" bore, and 1" stroke. The hp is unknown, rpm is 50-500 rpm aprox. This is just a model and is not designed to do any real work, it is mechanical art for men, and is for your office desk or den as a conversation piece, it does go round and round when air pressure is applied."

While the electric motor, seen in Lloyd's video, worked fine to start up the steam processing, Lloyd says that he much prefers the new method using propane. No electric motor, motor mounting hardware, switches, controls, batteries, electrical connections, wiring, or additional drive mechanisms are needed. The propane works quickly for start-up, and is then turned off. The system is then self-sustaining as long as water drip is available and the friction producing wood is loaded.

Just some clarifications and additional food for thought from the man in Maine.

Nothing new from Lloyd at this time, but I will post anything that comes along as quickly as is possible.

Best regards to all,

Rickoff

[Jetijs]

Rick, I still do not quite understand how Lloyd is transferring heat to thesteam vessel. Can you perhaps explain this in simple words? A crude drawing would be preferable
Thank you

[Jetijs]

BTW, I remember that mythbusters once used some pneumatic/air motors for some experiments with steam. And steam powered them just fine. Maybe we need to look for something like that, because it is very hard to find suitable steam engines on the market today
This one for example:
GAST 4AM NVR 54A PNEUMATIC MOTOR - eBay (item 300264023495 end time Nov-03-08 13:23:50 PST)

[rickoff]

Re: different woods

That's right, Peter, some tests should be done using differing wood varieties cut to the same size, and with the same measured force applied, and recording the time required to heat metal from room temperature to a hot sizzling skillet temperature. It would be interesting to see how well softwood works, too. Softwood pellets are just as preferred as harwood pellets in pellet burning stoves. Softwood will not last as long when used for the friction, but may produce sufficient heat just as well. Lloyd obviously prefers hardwood and uses oak, but 4 x 4 oak is not inexpensive unless you have your own sawmill and a supply of oak trees. Surely any hardwood species would work. Green wood may possibly work as well as dried wood, requiring a lower drip rate of course, due to the moisture content in the wood. The question, though, is whether or not the moisture and sap in green wood will have a lubricating effect on the roller. If so, there may be a balance, because although more force may be required, the roller will turn easier due to the lubricating effect. It may, therefore, not increase demand on the steam engine.

Jetijs seems to already have a good setup for what will be needed to test all the factors mentioned above, using his lathe, and he can probably operate the lathe at a fairly constant 1800 to 2000 rpm speed range.

Jetijs - I am familiar with the principle that you illustrated, using oil within a container for creating heat. For anyone not familiar with this method, you can see it at the following web site: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/8EbpSK6...Heater%20a.pdf Note that you may need to be signed in at Yahoo Groups to be able to access the above link.

Best to all,

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Jetijs:

Yes, an air motor will work fine driven by steam, but it will not hold up as long, as by nature it is not built to accommodate the high temperatures and continuous high pressure, so lighter gauge and less durable materials are used in constructing them. Other than that, air and steam turbines are quite similar in design.

About the steam vessel: Edit - Please see post #32 in this thread for correct information about the steam vessel. It would seem that a closed unit would be preferred, at least when using the propane for initial steam generation to start the engine, and perhaps using a water mist injector for that purpose. You certainly wouldn't want to use the propane to heat the trough. I'm hoping that Lloyd will provide a sketch showing the actual method used for startup. A small external boiler, fired by propane, could easily be attached to the steam vessel, and then turned off after the engine is started and the friction device is up to operating temperature.

Did that help any? Hope so.

Best, Rick

[niidji]

Hi folks,

I just finished speaking with Lloyd Tanner by telephone (11:45pm). It looks as though the news channel that did the video about him generated a lot of interest. Since the video aired, he has been contacted by many people, including the engineering department at Rowland College in New Jersey, a NJ congressman who is excited about developing some state funded alternative energy projects, and also T Boone Pickens - who Lloyd says will be meeting with him next week. Pickens, of course, made a fortune from oil, but is now beating a different drum. See this video: YouTube - T. Boone Pickens TV Commercial
Although the "Pickens Plan" sounds like a logical and reasonable way to reduce foreign oil dependency (by switching vehicles to run on natural gas, and building huge wind power projects in central USA states), the fact that he is meeting with Lloyd has me a bit concerned. We all know how things usually turn out when big oil execs meet with alternative energy inventors. I just hope that we can glean enough information from Lloyd, before that meeting, to be able to successfully replicate what he is doing. Lloyd did say that he doesn't really have a set of plans drawn up for his device, but that he would send me some attachments of crude sketches, and some photos. As it was late tonight (11:15pm) when I called him, after receiving his e-mail reply, I didn't want to keep him on the phone very long. Here are some of the things Lloyd mentioned:

The unit seen in the video has been replaced by a new one with a horizontal roller shaft and a wider trough. This allows adding several more pieces of wood, thus multiplying the heat generation and steam output. The roller was made from a thick-walled metal tube Lloyd salvaged, having a 5 inch diameter, and a center bore of 1.625 inches. Perhaps this is a roller that came from a large automated take-away system at a shipping or manufacturing facility? He's not sure what the material is, but says that it shows no signs of wear at all from the pressure of the oak wood 4 x 4's that he uses to create the friction. Lloyd says that only a slight force is needed against the wood to create the desired heating effect. Thus, the wood lasts a long time. The chunks of wood shown loaded in his video would last for 3 days of continuous use, and Lloyd says that one cord of wood is enough to run the steamer for 5 years! He uses a controlled water drip rate that is adjusted to obtain the level of steam pressure desired, and says that his unit is capable of operating at 565 F degrees. He says that the water droplets react pretty much the same as a drop of water falling into a hot iron skillet on a stovetop. The central unit in his video is the steam pressure vessel, and although we don't see them in the video, he is now using additional vessels that control water flow. A "water hopper" holds incoming water from the supply line, which of course is at a relatively low pressure. The pressure within the airtight steamer will get very high, as it must be made high enough to drive a steam engine. Therefore, water entering the steamer must be at the same pressure level as the steamer. To achieve this, valving is used in the sealed water hopper. A float valve shuts off the water supply line when a desired water level is reached in the hopper. This prevents pressurized water in the hopper from causing a backflow through the supply line. Although he didn't specifically say so, I imagine that he also employs a commercial anti-backflow device or two in his supply line. I have such a device (3/4" brass Dual Check Backflow Preventer, made by LEGEND VALVE of Michigan, ph 1-800-752-2082) in my home plumbing, where it connects to the town water line. The water in the hopper becomes pressurized by allowing another valve - between the hopper and the steamer unit - to open until pressure is equalized, at which point water begins a gravity feed to enter the steamer via the drip control. It would appear prudent to also have a backcheck device attached before the drip mechanism, to prevent steamer pressure from going back through the dripper and into the hopper while the hopper is filling with water. As noted and quoted in my previous post, Lloyd now uses a steam engine to drive the friction roller. Lloyd says, "To get pressure in my pressure vessel to run the steam engine I have a built in LP gas burner to get up a head of steam that runs my steam motor. Once the friction roller gets hot from friction to whatever temperature you have your thermostat set at, the gas burner shuts off and never has to be used again. The heat is now generated from the friction roller. Your roller should turn 1700 to 2000 r.p.m. and that should be enough."

Lloyd's steam engine was manufactured by QUASITURBINE of Canada, which builds several sizes of steam engines, and has a distributor in Oregon. See their web site at: Quasiturbine> Type> Steam Engine
The company says that their steam engines will rotate on as little as 20 to 50 psi steam pressure. There is a lot of useful information on their web site, but if you click on the Available Products link for Steam, it looks as though they only offer a pre-production, 5 liters displacement per revolution, model to research organizations and institutions, at a cost of $8,900.

I will post additional information about this as Lloyd makes it available to me. This should at least help some of us get started with a replication. Knowing how Jetijs works, I wouldn't be surprised if he already has a good head start on one. A strong word of caution is advised to anyone attempting a replication, though. Pressurized steam can be very dangerous, and every possible precaution should be utilized to minimize the hazards. Use only enough heat as needed to develop sufficient steam to drive the engine at the 1,700 to 2,000 rpm suggested by Lloyd, and employ over-pressure relief valving and automatic steamer shut-off to prevent excessive pressure buildup. It would be wise to start by building a test model using a hobby shop type steam engine, and scale this project down so that you can use some small diameter hardwood dowels against a revolving metal roller. Something like this Jensen model found on Ebay:
VINTAGE JENSEN STEAM ENGINE STYLE #70 - eBay (item 220287246360 end time Oct-05-08 09:40:43 PDT)

Best regards to all,

Rick

THe Quaisturbine design suer reminds me of the Tesla Turbine. Of course, the Tesla Turbine is very efficient.

[Jetijs]

Did that help any? Hope so.

Best, Rick

Not quite, but that's ok. At least I have my own idea how to do that. Thank you anyway

[rickoff]

More for Jetijs:

Sorry Jetijs,

Edit - The original text of this paragraph has been deleted so as not to confuse readers. After watching the video about Lloyd Tanner's device, I assumed that water is dripped onto the spinning metal friction hub. The video shows the TV newsman's glasses being fogged by steam rising from the metal hub, so this is a logical assumption, but in fact this is not how Lloyd's device is used to produce steam. Please see post #32 of this thread for an accurate description of the entire process, and the components that are used.

Take a good look at the video, and then look at this rough preliminary sketch that I have drawn up of the basic trough/trough cover/steam vessel assembly: Lloyd Tanner's Friction Heater - Windows Live SkyDrive

The purpose of the above linked drawing is to illustrate and identify some of the major parts that we are speaking of. I'll post another drawing later, showing an interpretation of the steam vessel box interior and controls. I haven't received the files from Lloyd yet, but I imagine he's a very busy man.

Rick

[rickoff]

Reply to Nidjii:

THe Quaisturbine design suer reminds me of the Tesla Turbine. Of course, the Tesla Turbine is very efficient.

Yes, that's right, Nidjii. Say, I would like to make a suggestion to you. In any future posts, it is best to quote only the portion of a post that you are referring to, or just refer to the post number, rather than quoting the entire post. The less clutter, the better it is for those reading through these posts.

Thank you for your interest and observation,

Rick

[Tishatang]

Green Steam Machine

Hi All

Here is an already engineered steam engine you can build yourself.
You can check products link for plans and parts up to 10 hp.

Green Steam Engine Home Page

Tishatang

[Jan H]

I recall a device that is in principle very much like this.
It was some kind of free energy documentary wich i saw it on. The device looked like a centrifugal pump, but instead the impeller was a large cylinder with dimples on the outside, the gap between the housing and the cylinder would be filled with water. Turning the wheel would heat the water into steam. COP > 1
There was this fire-station that already had one, and a firefighter was talking about how good it worked.

This is pretty much the same idea isnt it?

[rickoff]

Update

Here is a quick update, folks:

I received an e-mail message today from Lloyd Tanner. He said that he doesn't have a scanner, so will be sending me sketches via US mail. Some of the sketches will show how the water drip system actually works.

Evidently, the Quasi-Turbine engine is something that he planned to use with the new roller system device, but he now realizes that he was misinformed about availability and engine size, and is looking at other options. So the roller system friction boiler, although currently under construction, is not yet completed. Lloyd is simply building it as he goes, using ideas that come to mind, rather than from a strict set of plans.

I will be speaking with Lloyd again later this evening, and will report on that conversation afterwards.

Best regards,

Rick