All about electrolysers, HHO, joecells ect. :)

[Jetijs]

I tried some other plate configurations. I connected the plates so that they form three 10-plate sections. This gave me 2.14 LPM at 20.2V and 20A. The efficiency - 74.8%
Here is a video about how the foam climbs up the plates and flows over to other cells.
YouTube - Foam problem

After this I replaced the electrolyte with fresh distilled water and 20% KOH. This time I filled the electrolyzer so that there is plenty of space till the vent holes. The electrolyte was already warm from the KOH + water reaction. When I turned the power ON, foam appeared and started to climb up, it did overflow to other cells for a short time and then it settled below the vent holes. This time I could get 20A at 11.73V with five 6-cell plate arrangement. But the efficiency remained the same - about 80%. So even if the foam is not traveling through the cells, the efficiency is still strangely low. After this I raised the electrolyte level a bit and this resulted in continuous foam overflowing through the cells, and I could get 1L of gas only in 55 seconds instead of 45 seconds as when the foam was not overflowing. I will give this design another chance with 4mm or 5mm thick vinyl spacers, will see how this performs.
Edit: Another observation, I noticed that if I disconnect the power supply from the cell and then connect the cell wires to different configurations, a small spark often occurs when Connecting the wires. Its like the cell has a charge of its own. Is this normal?

Thanks,
Jetijs

[Tarkus]

Electolysers charge

The plates are in a basic capacitive configuration, seems to me that your basically shorting out a capacitor when you jump leads in a new configuration (electrical). You may also have a little battery action going on.
Just my humble opinion

[Jetijs]

Tarkus,
That is probably it. Thanks
By some more experimenting I found out that I can increase the gas output using different cell configurations. For example, if I connect the negative wire in the center plate and two positive wires on each side, I get two 15-cell compartments in parallel, this way the cell eats those 20A at 30.6V. This gives me 3.3 LPM gas output, but the efficiency is still around 70%. I can also get the same LPM's using only one 15-cell block, but this makes alot more foam and much of the electrolyte is escaping to the outlet by the form of foam till the electrolyte level in those cells is so low, that not much amps can flow. If I use this on two 15-cell blocks in parallel, the foam problem is much less, because the amps now are divided through two cell blocks. This is great for hho torch, still, the efficiency is bad. Also if I use the cell in the two 15-cell mode, a good electrolyte level (where the foam does not overflow through the cells) is about 4-5cm below the vent holes, that is a lot of plate area wasted.

Will try the 4mm (or better 5mm?) vinyl spacers, if that wont work well, we will need to think about other designs

Also I have some other questions. Sometimes I see some white smoke coming out of the output tube, even in the gas goes through a bubbler. What is that? Water vapor? Under what circumstances does this effect appear? And the other question is is there any difference in improving gas mileage using hho booster in a vehicle that is already converted to run on propane/butane?

[kumaran]

Hi Jetijs,

Hi Kumaran
Thank you for your suggestions.
The electrolyte was new with about 15 - 20% KOH. I submerged the cell under water and connected to the power. There were some small bubbles from the electrolysis outside the cell, but you can easily tell the difference if the bubbles are from the electrolysis or if they are from the leakage in the cell. There was some minor leakage in the refilling part and that appeared only at greater pressures, but then I screwed the cap tighter and there was no leakage anymore. Then I tested the LPM. I took a 5l bollte and filled it with water, then submerged it and let it fill with the gas. It filled only in 3 minutes 30 seconds. That is 1.43 LPM. The amps were the same - 20A and the voltage across each 6-cell section was exactly 12V (I measured this with a voltmeter, the power supply voltage was 12.7). This all gives an efficiency of 84%. Too bad. I don't get it, how could that be? The connectors and the wires are not getting warm. Could it maybe be that the plate spacing is too close? So that the bubbles have a hard time climbing up to the electrolyte surface? Maybe I need to try 4mm vinyl as a spacer? I am confused

Good that you have done most of the checking and finds that there was no leakage happens at the cell. Sorry, I forgot to mention one more additional checking. Are you using filter stone inside bubbler? If yes, clean it up or change to newer one or just remove it. I made this mistake previously where my fish tank bubbler got clogged with fungus/algae. My series cell has pressure gauge so I noticed the pressure kept on increasing while the gas output still the same. After removing the filter bubbler then the cell able to push the bubbles freely and correct figures can be measured.

You mentioned that your power supply can output maximum 20A right? I think you are pushing to maximum limit. Try to use less electrolyte strength. Since you are using 6 series cell, 15% - 20% KOH is very high concentrations. Just use less than 5% KOH for efficiency checking. Make sure the amps draw never goes beyond 10A on your power supply when the electrolyte is cold.

1. 12V, 20A
2. 11.73V, 20A
3. 20.2V, 20A
4. 30.6V, 20A

Based on the readings above amperage readings are at maximum (20A). The setup is losing power somewhere. When the cell pulling too much of power, the voltage across the cell decreases and amps increases. That is why in the second data shows 11.73V but pulling the same amps 20A. In fact the amps should be more.

Power on, wait until the foam stops crawling to the top and amps reading is below 10A (cold electrolyte). After electrolyte warms up, foam won’t be crawling through ventilation hole at top and now start measuring the gas output using 2L bottle. Repeat the gas measuring few cycles and take the average readings.

3mm cell gap is fine and should be optimum for series cell design according to Bob Boyce. I use 6mm gap so that the cell can store more water to minimize refilling cycle. I think 6mm gap may reduce the cell efficiency (I’m not sure). For 13 plate’s semi series cell (hole at bottom of the plates for electrolyte auto level) with middle plate as cathode and end plates as anode, I use 300 gram KOH (25%) and 900 gram water. When the electrolyte is cold the amps readings starts at 10A and slowly climbs up till 20A after 1hr 30 minutes. So with 3mm gap, you should use about 5% KOH first and if not enough then slowly add the electrolyte strength later.

White smoking is gas with water vapor and KOH. That is why, Bob Boyce encourage using double bubblers. First is as scrubber and second is for safety. If KOH enters engine, then it's too bad. Its true that series cell becomes capacitor. You will notice the voltage across the cell drops slowly and at one point the voltage stays. This effects makes the intial power supply to the cell, the amperage shoots very high then immediately comes down and back to normal. If use proper inductor and correct pulse DC frequency, resonance can be achived (not easy but can be done).

Jetijs, I know your cell can perform more than 120%. You just need to do it correctly. Again follow the sequence checking:

• Check bubbler filter
• Reduce electrolyte strength
• Measure gas output after electrolyte warms up

These should solve the problem.

[Jetijs]

Kumaran,
For these tests I do not use a bubbler, I measure the LPH directly from electrolyzer so there is no problem there. Yes, it is true that my power supply can get 20 amps max, it is the upper limit. I will try these tests with smaller electrolyte concentration, then we will see.
Thank you for guiding me through

[kumaran]

Hi Jetijs,

Kumaran,
For these tests I do not use a bubbler, I measure the LPH directly from electrolyzer so there is no problem there. Yes, it is true that my power supply can get 20 amps max, it is the upper limit. I will try these tests with smaller electrolyte concentration, then we will see.
Thank you for guiding me through

No bubbler???? Hmmm... This is somehow contradict with my experiment results. Then where is the problem?

Ok, first try with lower concentration so that the amperage draw is around 10A. If still the efficiency suffers then my suspect goes to improper plate conditioning. Never change the power connection polarity, this will ruin the conditioning process.

Another idea is since your power supply is adjustable, try reduce the voltage to lower the amps down. Say maybe 11V so that the amps draw say 10A. Now, measure the gas output and calculate the cell efficiency. 11V devide 6 cell is still 1.83V per cell to produce better gas output at high efficiency.

Try it out.

[Unknowing]

Hello All,

So I am very interested in building the 100 cell unit "Bob Boyce". But I thought I would build a 9 cell unit first, I thought this would give me some experiance with the build of the unit and I could also use it as a bench top model or booster.

I could use a little help I'm sure from this fourm (but I have read the information at free-energy-info.co.uk Chapter 10pdf)

I was reading that the has +.003" interfance of the plates to the uhmw-pe, is this the current design? So we are very clear on this part, the slot will be machined to .0655". ( WHAT THICKNESS IS THE UHMW? .250? )

I did join the yahoo group for the Bob Boyce electrolizer, but personally I don't like the why it is set up so I am posting here.

Any info would be great, also I will be lazor cutting those 125 pieces of 6"x6" .0625" ss 316L if someone would like to add to this order please give me a call and we can figure out if it's worth while.

Thanks

John 714328 1028 I'm in Southern California

[Jetijs]

Kumaran,
I just tried the same setup at low amps. First I connected the cell in two 15-cell setup (negative wire in the middle plate and positive wires on both outer plates). I adjusted the voltage so that 10 amps would flow through, then I let the cell work for a hour or so. I noticed that after a while I need to lower the voltage to maintain 10 amps, because as the electrolyte heats up, the amp draw increases. When the cell was "warmed up" and the amps did not continue to increase, I measured the voltages across each separate cell, they all were 1.95V. I thought that I might as well lower the voltage to see what the max efficiency I will get. I lowered the voltage so that only 1 amp would flow through the cell, this required 26.5V, but the voltage across each separate cell dropped only to 1.76V. Ok, then I measured the LPM. One liter bottle filled in 5 minutes and 56 seconds. This is 89.7% efficiency. Still too low. I guess that this is because I can't get less than 1.8V across each separate cell. I tried various configurations and verified the correlation between voltage across each cell and efficiency. For example, if the voltage across each separate cell is 1.99V, the efficiency is only 81%. So it must be true that the closer we get to 1.24V, the greater the efficiency. But I still can't get the voltage across each cell lower than 1.76V, because when I lower the voltage below that, the amp flow is so small that you would probably need whole day to get one liter of gas. So what should I do before storing the cell away for conditioning for some more days? Increase electrolyte strength?
Edit: ok I tried increasing the electrolyte concentration - nothing changed, the smallest voltage on that I could get an amp across the plates was still 1.76V. At first I tried just one 6cell compartment, this gave 1.90V across cell, then I used five such compartments in parallel thus increasing the plate area 5x, only this way I could get those 1.76V across cell at 1A current flow. Seems to me that the only option left to get this voltage lower, is decrease the plate spacing to say 2mm. But I am not able to try this out at this time. So I guess its off to plate conditioning process again

[kumaran]

Hi Jetijs,

I saw the video on foam climbing top yesterday. This is because of 6 cells and too much of amps flowing through 3mm gap cells. In my 8 plate series cells, I manage to get high efficiency using 14V (across cell) and 10A to produce 1.2LPM with efficiency level 120%. 8 plate series cell constructed with 3mm cell gap. Above than that the foam started to climb very high and waste too much of active plate area. Total cell for series cell should be 7 for 12V (across the cell) which gives 1.71V per cell.

As stated yesterday, you cannot change the polarity of the power connection. This will ruin the conditioning process, I think you have wasted the time you used for conditioning process. Since your design is with 33 plates so that you can change the cell configuration as how you want will not give high efficiency. Just make simple 8 plate series cell to check for efficiency. Later you can upgrade to more plates for higher voltage.

Believe me, I did record down my 8 plate series cells efficiency as progress. If not mistaken, I have changed about 3 batches of electrolyte during conditioning process. Even during conditioning, I did measure gas output to check for efficiency level. It kept on raising. Once the last electrolyte batch shows little colour changes than I mix new electrolyte solution for production. I never change the power connection polarity from day one.

I think you need to redo the conditioning process again with 8 plate series cell. Just maintain 3A current flow during conditioning period. Top up electrolyte level whenever necessary. Some people spend weeks on conditioning. It's worth it at the end.

[Jetijs]

Ok, thank you.
What was the efficiency of your cells before conditioning? Also around 90%?
And you say that 7 cells for 12V should be used and that gives 1.71V per cell, but my experience so far shows that at such a voltage across cell not much amps can flow. I could hardly get 1A at 1.76V across each cell.

[kumaran]

Ease confusion

Hi Jetijs,

Ok, thank you.
What was the efficiency of your cells before conditioning? Also around 90%?
And you say that 7 cells for 12V should be used and that gives 1.71V per cell, but my experience so far shows that at such a voltage across cell not much amps can flow. I could hardly get 1A at 1.76V across each cell.

I didn't keep records during conditioning process. I should have done that. But it should be far below par. Somewhere 70% to 80% I guess. Sorry I can't recall.

Well, the most important observation which still fresh in my mind is when ever I see the electrolyte changes colour, this mean sedimen from plates mixes into electrolyte causes the cell perform less efficient. The current could not flow effectively cause loss efficiency. After proper conditioned process, the cell needs less voltage to push current from one end to the other. For example, with my 13 plate semi series cell, I can push current around 30A but at the end the electrolyte stays clear. This shows that there are no more sedimen gonna thrown out from the plates to reduce the cell efficiency.

Yes, you are right about 1.76V per cell only passes 1A current. I checked my previous experiment records and shows that when the voltage near to 2V per cell the cell performs better (after conditioned).

13.38V, 6A, 0.58LPM, 101.40% efficiency
13.43V, 7A, 0.75LPM, 112.56% efficiency
14.00V, 10A, 1.20LPM, 120.94% efficiency

Theory says the cell just needs 1.24V to generate hydroxy but would practical in real use. Sorry for the confusion.

The above data uses 28% KOH. I should not push the amps further because the power loss as heat. 0.25A per sqr inch so 6" x 6" = 36" sqr inch. 36 x 0.25 = 9A. So the maximum amps should pass through 6" x 6" series cell is 9A. Above than that the cell efficiency suffers. That is why I stopped the testing after 10A. Since this was my first series cell, I used 6mm for power connection bolt and the bolts got warm/hot to touch. Some efficiency loss there but still ok to reach 120% for short period of time.

[ashtweth]

Hope this is in the right thread, so many Booster ones i couldn't choose

Guys any one seen this? If not i am sure you will all like it.
Check this guy out he does a good job explaining
O2 sensors.
Mad Scientist HHO Research |
YouTube - madscientist67's Channel

[Unknowing]

Hello Kumaran,

How did you come up with .25A?

[QUOTE=kumaran;18985] I should not push the amps further because the power loss as heat. 0.25A per sqr inch so 6" x 6" = 36" sqr inch. 36 x 0.25 = 9A. So the maximum amps should pass through 6" x 6" series cell is 9A. QUOTE]

Also do you know ( or anyone else) know what kind of lpm out put a 100cell puts out with straight DC no pulse?


Thanks

John A.

ps. Why hasn't anyone answered any of my previous posts?

[kumaran]

Hi John,

How did you come up with .25A?

Bob Boyce recommendation after years of experimenting with hydroxy series cell. Now, he doesn't post anymore in oupower.com. Somebody may have answered your questions in oupower.com under electrolysis. Do a search.

Also do you know ( or anyone else) know what kind of lpm out put a 100cell puts out with straight DC no pulse?

Bob manage to get 6LPM during conditioning for his welding unit. If not mistaken the welding unit after conditioning puts out 10LPM.

[kumaran]

Bob Boyce 8 plate series cell

Hi Jetijs,

Ok, thank you.
What was the efficiency of your cells before conditioning? Also around 90%?
And you say that 7 cells for 12V should be used and that gives 1.71V per cell, but my experience so far shows that at such a voltage across cell not much amps can flow. I could hardly get 1A at 1.76V across each cell.

Here is the figues from Bob Boyce 8 plate series cell for car hydro booster.

1.5LPM using 13.8V and 10A. Efficiency at 153.37%.

What could conditioning do to increase efficiency. Again, Bob Boyce result from his welding unit.

(While conditioning) 6.7LPM using 142.5V and 6.02A. Efficiency at 110.20%.
(After conditioning) 15.0LPM using 142.5V and 6.02A. Efficiency at 246.71%.
(After conditioning & resonance drive) 15.0LPM using 142.5V and 2A. Efficiency at 742.61%.

The result speaks for itself. Happy testing.