Molecular distances and corresponding frequencies

[Cycle]

According to:
Hydrogen Bonding and Orbital ModelsFREQUENCY & WAVELENGTH CALCULATOR

2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717351890034363270 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

2.985 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.0043e+18 Hz or 1.0043298425460636160 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1623677004219407360 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

Water Radiolysis - Dissociating Water with Radio Waves
"Guenther and Holzapfel irradiated water with X-rays in contact with a large free volume in a vacuum system and found large continuing yields of hydrogen gas."

According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_absorption_by_water

Water has its highest absorption at 65 to 70 nm, which is 4.2827e+15 to 4.4087e+15 Hz. That's ultraviolet range. But that'd just cause the water to heat up, I think.

So, if we hit the water with:
1.4717 ExaHertz
3.1624 ExaHertz
that should excite all the points of vibration in the molecules at their resonant frequencies, forcing the molecules to dissociate.

How to electrically generate that high of a frequency?

How about piezoelectrics?

X-Ray Scanner Is the Size of a Stick of Gum : Discovery News

[Cycle]

Going further down this particular rabbit hole, water is dipolar and diamagnetic, so we can use magnetic fields to orient the water molecules.

If we lined up the water molecules, then hit the molecules at the three frequencies outlined above, at the appropriate angle to cause the most dissociation, that should improve dissociation yield, correct?

Sort of creating an "assembly line" for the water molecules, where we line them up and knock them apart.

And, we can calculate the voltage required to produce the electrons that will cause the photon emission upon impinging upon the lead shielding:

Lecture 28, Nov. 13, 2000

[Cycle]

Plunging headlong down the rabbit hole...

The basic premise is that the water molecule is a center Oxygen pivot, with two Hydrogen flappers... if we vibrate those two flappers at their resonant frequency, the vibration intensity builds until it literally rips the hydrogen off its hinges. I've heard it called a "Resonance Catastrophe".

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Now, looking at the attenuation of x-rays in water, I see that it's dependent upon the photon energy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-ray#mediaviewer/File:Attenuation.svg

Using the calculator:
X-Ray attenuation & absorption calculator

For the .2037 nm (1.4717 ExaHertz), it would have 6086.6 eV, giving an attenuation path length of ~6.15 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 97.5952% Photoabsorption, 0.5371% Compton Scattering and 1.8676% Rayleigh Scattering.

For the .0948 nm (3.1624 ExaHertz), it would have 13079 eV, giving an attenuation path length of ~58.65 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 86.6650% Photoabsorption, 6.7558% Compton Scattering and 6.5792% Rayleigh Scattering.

For the .2985 nm (1.0043 ExaHertz), it would have 4153.6 ev, giving an attenuation path length of ~1.97 mm before being 100% absorbed, with 98.9491% Photoabsorption, 0.1313% Compton Scattering and 0.9196% Rayleigh Scattering.

So we wouldn't have to have a large cell to completely absorb the x-rays being generated. Of course, those are the minimum voltages discussed above to produce the x-rays of the desired wavelengths.

But we'd want to be as close to those wavelengths as possible in order to "flap" the hydrogen as efficiently as possible. A take on resonance-enhanced photon ionization.

Unlike ionic compounds, such as sodium chloride, water molecules are not ionized before they dissociate; they accomplish ionization and dissociation at the same time.

Here's something interesting I found... it's exactly what I'm talking about as regards using a magnet to align the dipoles, then using resonance to crack the water apart:
Patent WO2010059751A2 - Methods and systems for dissociation of water molecules using inertial ... - Google Patents

"A magnetic field can create dipole-aligned water molecules that can accept energy at the hydrogen-oxygen bond resonance frequency or a sub-harmonic thereof. An oscillating electromagnetic field can cause resonance catastrophe, resulting in the dissociation of water into hydrogen ions (e.g., H+) and oxygen ions (e.g., O2"). An electrostatic field and a modified Ranque-Hilsch vortex can be used to separate the ionized hydrogen from ionized oxygen with minimum post-dissociation collisions."

Except they're talking about dissociation via an electromagnetic field, whereas I'm talking about hitting the water with x-rays at its absorption frequency window for each frequency, and at the correct angle (after lining up the molecules via a magnetic field) for each frequency to get the maximum molecular cross-section.

Also found this:

http://goo.gl/RhaxDe

(sorry, the original URL is really long)

Title:
"Dynamics of ultrafast dissociation of hydrogenic molecules by resonant antibonding core electron excitation"

"Excitations of core electrons can cause dissociation of molecules before the core holes decays, in particular if the core electron is resonantly excited into an antibonding molecular orbital and one of the fragments is very light."

"Hydrogen or deuterium and halogens are the optimum partners for UFD: the low masses of the first enable rapid acceleration and preferential energy deposition on the light fragment due to momentum conservation; and the Z+1 behavior of the latter warrants antibonding core-excited states."

[Cycle]

One interesting thing I took away from that "Dynamics of ultrafast dissociation" paper is that they achieve higher hydrogen yields by shifting the frequency toward a shorter wavelength (higher frequency) than resonance... and I have an inkling of an idea.

What if what is happening is, as the researchers above state, the water molecule dissociation starts by the two hydrogens symmetrically extending away from the oxygen, then one of the hydrogens breaks off, and the other snaps back toward the oxygen. And by "blue-shifting", they just happened to hit a point where they were adding that last little push of energy to the weaker hydrogen bond just as it approached the oxygen, which helped it to rebound and go flying. Or they added just enough energy to one hydrogen as it approached the oxygen, and the molecule, in trying to maintain dipolar moment, transferred just enough of that energy to the other hydrogen just as it was rebounding, causing it to go flying.

The "symmetrical stretching" part isn't a usual vibration mode of the water molecule without excitation. Usually, in the absence of excitation, it undergoes asymmetrical stretching, rocking, scissoring, wagging, and twisting. All of these DOF movements preserve the underlying symmetry and net cumulated O-H-O distances. But symmetrical stretching is different... it stretches both springs at once.

In the parlance of springs and weights, it's a two-spring system (the hydrogens are connected via one spring each, with the two springs connected to each other through the oxygen). So if one hydrogen moves away from the oxygen, the other has to move closer.

But, as energy builds up in the molecule due to our exciting it at resonant frequency, we stretch *both* springs at once (symmetrical stretching), until finally the ever-so-slightly weaker spring snaps, and the ever-so-slightly stronger spring recoils.

The increased distance between the hydrogen and oxygen changes the resonant frequency a bit... so the researchers were using as a baseline the resonant frequency of a water molecule undergoing *no* excitation... but by blue-shifting to a higher frequency when under excitation, they actually hit the *new* resonant frequency of one of the hydrogen's 'springs' as it was rebounding.

If the researchers had red-shifted their frequency, they might have been able to add energy to *both* hydrogens just as they were symmetrically stretched the most, and caused both hydrogens to go flying. *Really* ultrafast dissociation.

Comments? Or am I completely off base here?

[Cycle]

It's become apparent to me that Stan Meyer was going for breaking the short O-H bond.

0.948 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 3.1624e+18 Hz or 3.1624 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

Fundamental Frequency: 3162400000000000000 Hz

One of Stan Meyer's harmonics of his 3890 Hz fundamental is 15.920 KHz.
I'm betting he was going for the 0.948 angstrom (3.1624 ExaHertz) short O-H bond subharmonic of 15.812 KHz. That's only 108 Hz off, and allowing for water impurities, is spot on. Or it may be that his calculations were of a higher precision than mine, and he was spot on to begin with, and my calculations are slightly off.

I'm not sure why he'd want to break the short O-H bond, given that the molecule undergoes symmetrical stretching under excitation. We should be aiming to break that long O-H bond, because *both* the hydrogens enter that state under excitation, so we have the chance to dissociate both of them from the oxygen.

2.037 angstrom corresponds to a frequency of 1.4717e+18 Hz or 1.4717 ExaHertz. X-ray range.

So we'd be using frequencies of either 14.717 KHz, 14.717 MHz or 2.45283 GHz (simply because the 14.717 GHz frequency might be beyond our ability to easily produce).

[Cycle]

Also found this:

http://iopscience.iop.org/0963-0252/22/1/015010

13.56 MHz with ex situ electrodes. Apparently creates plasma and gives off light.

A red-shifted frequency from non-excited resonance frequency due to the now-lower resonant frequency caused by the cumulative O-H-O bond becoming longer under symmetrical stretching?

[Cycle]

Ah, I understand now... Stan Meyer was targeting the short O-H bond because if you disrupt the inter-molecular O-O bond in the water dimer, it causes the hydrogen to bind even tighter to the oxygen.

And since the frequency to split that long O-H bond is close to the frequency to split the O-O dimer bond, he must not have wanted to take the chance of a harmonic frequency pushing the water molecules further apart, thereby making it more difficult to cleave the hydrogen from the oxygen.

[Cycle]

Amazing what you can learn from Google... I now understand that we're attempting to replicate an MRI machine, but trying to push the energy states of the O-H bonds beyond their breaking points.

An MRI subjects the hydrogen in the water in our bodies to a strong magnetic field, then pulses an RF frequency to induce resonant vibrations, which can then be seen with the right equipment.

http://web.eecs.umich.edu/~dnoll/BME516/mri1.pdf

========================================
Quantum mechanical (QM) description of a spin in a magnetic field
With no applied magnetic field, all spins are in the same energy state (E=0). Their magnetic moments are randomly oriented and do not form any coherent magnetization. When placed in an applied magnetic field, the spin will tend to align with or opposite to the direction of the applied magnetic field. These two states are known as "spin up" and "spin down", respectively. The spin-up state (in alignment) is slightly preferred, and thus has a lower energy level. The spin-down state is at a higher energy. A spin-up nuclei can absorb energy and transition to a spin-down and a spin-down nuclei can give up energy and transition to a spin-up. These energy states are similar to electron energies in a neon atom, except here there are only two possible energy states.

If we inject energy into this system (excite the system) at a frequency f0, we should be able to induce spin-flip transitions between the two energy states. This system is very selective to that specific energy level - higher and lower frequencies won't work. Excitation must be at this specific frequency in order to "resonate" with the nuclei - this frequency selectivity is the origin of the term resonance in nuclear magnetic resonance.
========================================

But it can't be a static magnetic field, that just tends to increase the O-O dimer distance, thereby increasing O-H bonding strength. What we need is a pulsating magnetic field... and I'm betting that if we used neodymium magnets arranged in a Parallel Path (ala Joe Flynn) arrangement, with a magnetic short-circuit that had a coil on it, then we pulsed that coil at one of the resonant frequencies of the short O-H bond, we'd see some pretty impressive dissociation rates.

See the .PNG attached image...
Water Splitter.jpg

(EDIT):
Errmm... that only shows a thumbnail, it should be much larger. So, I've attached a .PDF, as well.

Essentially, it uses Parallel Path flux paths to multiply the magnetic flux... note the two flux paths on each side of the water tank are tied together via a common flux path for even more flux strength enhancement through the water tank.

Note the flux path "short circuits" where the coils are... both coils would be pulsed on and off together. When the coils are on, the flux seeks the easiest path, so it must try to go through the water tank. When the coils are off, the flux goes through the "short circuit" path. We don't need to hit the coils with a lot of current, just enough to force the flux path to seek the alternate path through the water tank. That amount would have to be arrived at empirically. We're just 'steering' the magnetic flux with the coils.

If we could find a way to harvest the back-EMF from this (it should be quite substantial), the coils wouldn't take a lot to run. Set it up as a "joule ringer" type circuit that rings the current back and forth (ala LaserSaber):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoEXCweMxhk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qxLwow3gZA

and it should ring at the resonant short O-H frequency for a long time without much current input.

Note the biasing plates... we'd apply a DC voltage to them (voltage being predicated upon the distance between the plates) just below the dissociation threshold. This would allow the hydrogen and oxygen to migrate away from each other after the magnetic flux has resonantly ripped them apart, and would help in getting the O-H bond right up to the breaking point prior to hitting it with the magnetic flux.

This would be for a pure-water splitter, no electrolyte. The water tank would have to be small, in order to keep the magnetic flux through it high... but if high dissociation rates can be achieved, a small size would be a plus.

Now I'm scared of MRIs... one glitch and they can turn the water in your body into H and hydroxide ions. Heh.

One thing that would have to be worked out is how to "cap" those free ends of the flux paths (at each end of the device) so there's no flux leakage via that route.

[MasterBlaster]

New information

I hope you can make use of this in your research:

Molecular Dynamics Study of Orientational Cooperativity in Water

[cond-mat/0510646v1] Molecular Dynamics Study of Orientational Cooperativity in Water

[Cycle]

Thank you, MasterBlaster. I'll put that in the queue of things I'm reading.

The only way I can think of to cap off that potential magnetic flux leak at each end of the machine is to make that a second magnetic flux "short circuit" route, with a coil, so there'd be 4 coils and 4 magnets. Depending upon the magnetic saturation limits of your flux paths, you could conceivably have more than 4 magnets, though.

[Cycle]

Being a complete water dissociation newbie, I've just gone off my couple months of research and some (I hope) common sense for all the gibberish above.

Can someone with a deep understanding of water dissociation review what I've written and poke holes in it? I'm dying to know if something like this would actually work.

[MasterBlaster]

Can someone with a deep understanding of water dissociation review what I've written and poke holes in it? I'm dying to know if something like this would actually work.

You would be wrong to think such persons exist. With your comment you are going to attract many people who will divert you from your own thinking to no man's land.

This might seem basic to you but take a look:

K8 Electro-

Also pay a visit to alexpetty.com

DO YOUR OWN THING.


M

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Cycle keep at it, your going in the right direction

Your the first person I have seen to take the bull by the horns and look at what can be done with electro magnetic waves.

"AC" electro magnetic external field
High voltage nano second pulsed electrodes

regards

Mike

[Cycle]

My brain keeps screaming at me something about a ring with coils, but I must be too sleep deprived to put it together. I'll get it eventually. I work midnight shift, so it's my bed time.

[Cycle]

I have no idea whether any of the below is apropos to the topic, but I decided to try a bit of divergent thinking while my brain ruminated on that 'metal ring with coils' thing. I have a huge honking headache, as often happens when my brain latches onto something and won't let go until it figures it out.

So, I just open Notepad, research, formulate ideas, write them down, and try to make sense of them. So here we go...

The fundamentals of the Yagi antenna...

A Yagi antenna has parasitic elements that help it to achieve gain (ie: electrical efficiency at converting input power to radio waves). There are inductive and capacitive elements.

One creates an inductive element by tuning its resonant frequency slightly above the target frequency. If the parasitic element is made inductive it is found that the induced currents are in such a phase that they reflect the power away from the parasitic element. The impedance of the reflector will be inductive. Hence, the current on the reflector lags the voltage induced on the reflector.

One creates a capacitive element by tuning its resonant frequency slight below the target frequency. If the parasitic element is made capacitive it will be found that the induced currents are in such a phase that they direct the power radiated by the whole antenna in the direction of the parasitic element.

The two types of elements 'heterodyne' at such a frequency that they create a 'traveling wave' at the target frequency. A very narrow-band antenna, and very directional, by design.

You'll note the frequencies I derived above:
The 0.948 angstrom (3.1624 ExaHertz) short O-H bond subharmonic of 15.812 KHz.

The 2.037 angstrom (1.4717 ExaHertz) long O-H bond subharmonic of 14.717 KHz.

Stan Meyer was using 15.920 KHz as one of his subharmonic frequencies.

(Short O-H Bond Frequency / Meyer Frequency) * 100 = 99.3216% of Meyer Frequency

This is almost the exact frequency, only 108 Hz off.

(Long O-H Bond Frequency / Meyer Frequency) * 100 = 92.4434% of Meyer Frequency

Is this how Meyer was able to keep current low while voltage was high? By inductive current lag via going just over the target frequency, then clamping off the electricity before current had a chance to rise?

Maybe his dissociation 'spark plug' was actually a tiny Yagi antenna tuned to the resonant subharmonic frequency of the O-H bond? If so, he'd have had to use another frequency just below the target frequency to arrive at the target frequency via a heterodyned 'traveling wave'. Or was the water itself the 'capacitive element' in this scenario?

Unfortunately, I'm no electrician... my father was, but after getting shocked one too many times with his long-wire antenna and other high-voltage stuff, I got gun-shy around electricity. So I'm a mechanic.

Can someone who knows more about this stuff please elucidate me as to whether I'm at least shooting in the right direction?

Ugh... head hurts. Gotta sleep.