Bedini Earth Light

[ibpointless2]

@LetsReplicate

The use of borax was introduced to me by B_rads in a private message. The Borax was used to super charge the glue cell but did more harm in the long run and is no longer added to the crystal glue cell. The Borax did help the Stove top cell and it runs a load for a long time. Its all about the right combinations of materials.

[LetsReplicate]

Borax

@LetsReplicate

The use of borax was introduced to me by B_rads in a private message. The Borax was used to super charge the glue cell but did more harm in the long run and is no longer added to the crystal glue cell. The Borax did help the Stove top cell and it runs a load for a long time. Its all about the right combinations of materials.

I can understand that, since borax is a major component of Electrolytic capacitors:

The principle of the electrolytic capacitor was discovered in 1886 by Charles Pollak, as part of his research into anodizing of aluminum and other metals. Pollack discovered that due to the thinness of the aluminum oxide layer produced, there was a very high capacitance between the aluminum and the electrolyte solution. A major problem was that most electrolytes tended to dissolve the oxide layer again when the power is removed, but he eventually found that sodium perborate (borax) would allow the layer to be formed and not attack it afterwards. He was granted a patent for the borax-solution aluminum electrolytic capacitor in 1897.

However, notice that it says sodium perborate (which is non-corrosive, but hydrophobic) instead of Sodium tetraborate decahydrate (commercial borax, which is corrosive to metal). The half-dry state produced in the hot cells is: Disodium tetraborate pentahydrate.

Sodium perborate is manufactured by reaction of disodium tetraborate pentahydrate, hydrogen peroxide, and sodium hydroxide. Sodium perborate undergoes hydrolysis in contact with water, producing hydrogen peroxide and borate.

I just happen to have some pharmaceutical grade Sodium hydroxide (the cheap replacement for which is drain cleaner, but it also contains aluminum filings), I will attempt a sodium perborate cell once I consult a chemist to see how dangerous this will be, and what method is needed to combine them.

ibpointless2: you may have solved the mystery as to why electrolytic caps can sometimes self-recharge. Do you have a HV pulse generator? You could try "pulse charging" and hope the cell conditions to spontaneously recharge to a higher voltage, which has been documented only in electrolytic capacitors.

[ibpointless2]

ibpointless2: you may have solved the mystery as to why electrolytic caps can sometimes self-recharge. Do you have a HV pulse generator? You could try "pulse charging" and hope the cell conditions to spontaneously recharge to a higher voltage, which has been documented only in electrolytic capacitors.

"you may have solved the mystery as to why electrolytic caps can sometimes self-recharge"

I guess you never seen my work with the "captret". The captret was experiment on capacitors to see the self charging effect and to treat capacitors in a different way. The word captret was the combining of the words capacitor and electret. I took the self charging thing a little further when I started using the case of the capacitor. I have many videos as well as others on the captret subject.
Captret - Capacitor Electret - YouTube
Captret self charges when capacitor is shorted out - YouTube
Captret LED Driver circuit - YouTube
I really like this one Explain this Captret Effect DrStiffler - YouTube
Captret amplifies voltage - YouTube
I like this one too. Captret Forever Blinking - YouTube
This was very interesting The secret behind the self charging captret - YouTube

Here's others replication of the captret
Captret replication.ASF - YouTube
Plengo Captret circuit tests Part 1 - YouTube
Automan Captret Thief update 11-18-2010 - YouTube
Testing the Captret: is this free energy? - YouTube
Testing the Captret part two. - YouTube

[Slider2732]

@LetsReplicate - by previously unknown, I was referring to the increase in voltage (if even transient) with passing electrical storms. As documented by John B as anomalous and personally witnessed in own cells here, a cell voltage may climb by several mV during storm conditions. There is a rise before the storm arrives...reminding me of Tesla's ringing bell experiment at Colorado Springs.
It could be pressure differences, to which it would be the transducer effect presumably, but I had none of that knowledge at the time of posting.

I did like this:

The web designers are currently having Thanksgiving dinner however

Also liked the summary of conditions and effects on the last page, it forms a good quick reference

Quick question to LR, IB and anyone else - presumably Boric Acid (Roach Killer) would either have no effect or a detrimental effect on an aluminium capacitor can, if soaked in a water solution of that for several days and then dried out ?
I'd like to protect either aluminium or galvanized steel from being a sacrificial metal, with a common household chemical.
My purely water 'cells' are a test of galvanics with copper/galvanized steel electrodes. They carry on and on for weeks running an LED oscillator, until the negative electrode turns black. Mind you, scrape that off and the thing starts up again. Bigger the surface area the longer it takes, but it does happen. The 3 Earthquakes we had proved that vibration will knock the coating away, otherwise I can shake the water container and off she goes. Long term runs with store bought reverse osmosis water show no depletion in 'power' from the water, just the electrode. Got no magnesium or anything posh, so a 10ft long 2ft wide roll of salvaged galvanized steel has been what i've been cutting up.
Or, how about the Alum spray that John B used on original Earth Light's ?

It's an odd route for metals protections, but if the stovetop type cells internally generate ion movement through self generated lattice tunnels, then metals protection from 100% water is what i'd like to achieve. Any water remaining in crystals of say Epsom salt would then not corrode the negative electrode.

[b_rads]

Water Cells

@Slider2732:
You answered your own question. If you need specifics, PM me. My water cells are now 14 month old and still light the LED. No buildup of the black stuff.
Brad S

[Slider2732]

I probably did
I probably also should PM, because I probably will get the answer wrong by knowing what the probable answer is !
Thanks

[ibpointless2]

One big reason why I say to spray paint or encase the crystal glue cells is that I’ve seen increase in power. The increase is small, one cell went from 1.470 volts @ 26 micro-amps to 1.474 volts 30micro-amps. It was small increase but any increase is important when you consider that encasing the cell puts it even further away from the moisture in the air. So not only does encasing the cell keep it alive longer but it seems to increase power too.

[LetsReplicate]

I guess you never seen my work with the "captret".

No, I hadn't: I only saw the "water captret" and had assumed that was what the captret was.

Lasersaber's demo was really good, he's always helpful.

I just replicated 3 of them out of various sized caps and after some testing I still have some doubts about the assumption that the captret is responsible for the spontaneous recharge although it is defiantly a factor. My first issue is that the captret capacitance is such a small value compared to the main that it is closer to the order 0.5%, this means that much more energy would be required to charge from the captret than it should be able to source if it were responsible for charging. Secondly, if I short both the leads with the captret for a while so there should be no energy left in the capacitor: it still recovers voltage in both the captret and the capacitor at the same time. Third, the main capacitor keeps charging even after the captret has hit it's peak recharge and drops. Fourth, the main charges to a positive voltage regardless of the captret's voltage, or it's voltage's rate of change (I watched an instance were my meter read 0.0uV on the captret while the main cap charged by over 50mv). Fifth, when I short the captret to either of the leads it has no noticeable effect on the main cap's recharge rate (if the captret was charging it, shorting it to a lead should kill the effect as it would be adding the capacitance in parallel). I will keep testing this until I either agree with you, or have something I think is a better explanation for the charging effect.

I do have a functional explanation for the efficiency of the LED circuit (and derivatives) which involves the capacitance junction, and the capability of the dielectric to "twist" (electrically) at said junction however due to the twisting, the math gets complicated (even more complicated than normal calculus) so the easiest way to explain it is with pictures, which will take some time to draw. Has there been anyone with an engineering degree (or otherwise well versed in the math) that has proposed an explanation? If so, I'd love a link to it: there's a lot for me left to go through looking for it.

@LetsReplicate - by previously unknown, I was referring to the increase in voltage (if even transient) with passing electrical storms. As documented by John B as anomalous and personally witnessed in own cells here, a cell voltage may climb by several mV during storm conditions. There is a rise before the storm arrives...reminding me of Tesla's ringing bell experiment at Colorado Springs.
It could be pressure differences, to which it would be the transducer effect presumably, but I had none of that knowledge at the time of posting.

Storms are primarily caused by static electricity. When this happens the ground under the storm, and the cloud itself both have opposite high voltage charges. This means there will be a large gradient E-field covering the whole area: this can be witnessed using some kinds low-voltage neon arc lamps (a component the effect has be documented on). The E-field stresses the crystal which will produce voltage. The cell should work especially well if the cell is placed so one lead is higher off the ground than the other as the wires themselves are also receiving a small charge. Pressure may also be a factor, as well as humidity of the air.

Also liked the summary of conditions and effects on the last page, it forms a good quick reference

Just doing my job. It will be even quicker when the references have their own web page and not buried 70+ pages down on a forum, don't you think? With a thread title like "Bedini Earth Light" it would be hard for a new person to find this info.

presumably Boric Acid (Roach Killer) would either have no effect or a detrimental effect on an aluminium capacitor can, if soaked in a water solution of that for several days and then dried out ?

I'm not a chemist and if you need to talk to one, I suggest tormenting the chemistry teacher at your local public High School: it's free. I can do some looking around though:

CORROSION INHIBITOR : Different boric composition can be used as Corrosion Inhibitors and anti-freeze (mixed with Ethylene Glycol in automobile motor cooling systems), as well as in brewing, heat treating, hydraulic fluids, and treatment of metallic products.
METALLURGY : Boron is used as a sealing for non-ferrous metals and used as a deoxidizer and degasifier in metallurgy. Because it absorbs neutrons. It is used in the production of steel. Traces of Ferro boron in boric steel increase its strength. Bron eliminates impurities metallurgist systems, resulting in highly pure material to be used in electrical conductors especially.

It's questionable whether that is about the acid or not, but it is an MSDS for the acid, so it might be worth a try: just do a tester first.

[ibpointless2]

@LetsReplicate

The captret idea has been beaten to death on other forums. If you would like to discuss the captret here are the forums to do so.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/6684-captret-perpetual-light-dead-batteries.html

and

Captret - Capacitor and Electret


But i do know what you're talking about when it comes to self charging capacitors. I've done many experiment on the effect. I even have a video on it here Capacitors self charging off each other - YouTube
This has capacitors charging off each other so that they end up with a higher voltage.

[NickZ]

Slider:
What happened to the Stiffler thread? I guess that nobody is working on those ideas. No more pigeons on the roost?
I found to my dismay that when I turned off the house breakers, my one wire connection from the outside ground to the Av plug, the plugs led goes out, also. Oh well...
So, somehow it is the same effect as what you are utilizing and working with. Back to the drawing board, for me. But like the Doc said, switching frequencies to the "right one" should not be hard to do, but it is.
It's like a pigeon shoot in the dark...

Ib2- There is a reason why the Captret works, and also a reason that it does not work, if it did work as planned we'd all still be using it. But, it is important to know the limiting reason or factors as to why nobody is working or developing it anymore. Why is that important? Because it may be the same reason that makes it so hard to get these cells to work right, and not lose much of their outputs levels over time, just like the Captret, and have to reply on blinking oscillators.
I also used oscillators on my captrets (pic below), but the caps all bulged from the hydrogen gas expanding inside, when connected to a voltage strong enough (18- 27 volts) to make the leds light. With lower voltages there was not enough useable light.
I'm not knocking it,
the reason that I even mention it is because:
I think that is is the Impedance (ion build up on the anodes, and hydrogen gas ) that is what kills most of these cells output. Which may be an inherent detrimental factor in the two metals design. So, How to avoid that, is the question... as even the capacitors used in the captrets were sealed air tight, before being connected up, and later bursting their presure seams.
Aren't these cells doing the same thing, or not? I know that cells with only 1 to 10mA may not be strong enough, but cell with 100 to 1000 mA, and higher outputs?

[ibpointless2]

Slider:
What happened to the Stiffler thread? I guess that nobody is working on those ideas. No more pigeons on the roost?
I found to my dismay that when I turned off the house breakers, my one wire connection from the outside ground to the Av plug, the plugs led goes out, also. Oh well...
So, somehow it is the same effect as what you are utilizing and working with. Back to the drawing board, for me. But like the Doc said, switching frequencies to the "right one" should not be hard to do, but it is.
It's like a pigeon shoot in the dark...

Ib2- There is a reason why the Captret works, and also a reason that it does not work, if it did work as planned we'd all still be using it. But, it is important to know the limiting reason or factors as to why nobody is working or developing it anymore. Why is that important? Because it may be the same reason that makes it so hard to get these cells to work right, and not lose much of their outputs levels over time, just like the Captret, and have to reply on blinking oscillators.
I also used oscillators on my captrets (pic below), but the caps all bulged from the hydrogen gas expanding inside, when connected to a voltage strong enough (18- 27 volts) to make the leds light. With lower voltages there was not enough useable light.
I'm not knocking it,
the reason that I even mention it is because:
I think that is is the Impedance (ion build up on the anodes, and hydrogen gas ) that is what kills most of these cells output. Which may be an inherent detrimental factor in the two metals design. So, How to avoid that, is the question... as even the capacitors used in the captrets were sealed air tight, before being connected up, and later bursting their presure seams.
Aren't these cells doing the same thing, or not? I know that cells with only 1 to 10mA may not be strong enough, but cell with 100 to 1000 mA, and higher outputs?

I never had caps bulge. If you exceed the voltage on them than they will bulge. Also some caps are affected by the capacitor plague, where they would bulge and pop. I only used new caps within there ratings.

No one works on the captret because it won't power there house, the same reason no one works on the crystal cells. The only reason why hydrogen would build up is due to water, avoid water and it won't happen.

Its all about the learning experiences, we must walk before we drive cars. The captret at most was a good learning experience, it got people thinking.

[NickZ]

Ib:
The point being... what it the cause of the impedance factor on these cells...? Is the same reason as with the capacitors in the Captret, that create hydrogen gas and burst? You are saying avoid the water, and there won't be any hydrogen. What I'm saying is that it is the air (oxygen in the air) that is causing problems. As the hydrogen gas bubbles on the cells anodes combine with the Oxygen in the Air, (if they can),to make water, which further oxidizes the metals, and contaminates the electrolyte. So, if no Air can get into the cell, the galvanic reaction can't work, but the ions still can flow, possibly without eating up the metals as before. As you shown of your cu/al glue cells. They have very little mA to produce enough hydrogen that would break the glues seal. But, bigger electrodes may also also means bigger hydrogen production,
Even capacitors burst when they make to much hydrogen gas. And this can happen with or without air or water. But maybe there is still some water in the caps. I don't know. But, It boils down to the same thing, a low output, self-destructing cell. So, it's not just enough just to avoid water, but avoid Air, or you are going to make water in the cells.
I think that is just what is happening with my hot dog cell, as it just won't stop making water. Hydrogen gas blows right through the glue in spots, combines with the air, and forms water puddles.
If the stove top salts-heat-treatment was used and applied on the cell, or the cell dipped into the hot molten mix, allowed to cool and dry out. And further sealed with resin on top, it would work better, I think. As the glue is not strong enough to keep the hydrogen gas from leaking out, and causing the wet salt, and caustic condition.
I tried E-poxy, but it also starts saturating with salty water after a while.

[NextGen1967]

@IB:

As for your post a while back about voltage being higher when stored in a capacitor....

Today I received a small sample cell to play with, and when very dry, it registered about 0.4v on a regular DMM... However, when I placed it on my bench meter which has an high impedance setting, the voltage of the cell shoot up and wend past the maximum readout of my bench meter (800mV). I then placed the cell on an 36uF metalized polyester cap, and slowly slowly, the voltage wend up in the capacitor to about 1.53v.

This shows the difference in measurement approaches, and the effect of impedance matching.... Supply and demand.

With a stopwatch in hand, one would be able to get a quite accurate idea of the impedance of the given cell, and the amount of energy it can deliver.

--
Ron.

[prato_braun]

hydrophobic ZnO

For those wanting a n-type coating on their anode that is hydrophobic, here is a great way to do it with ZnO and n-octadecyl thiol (ODT). What this will do is create a water barrier for your anode and stop all corrosion from water.

Powered by Google Docs

where do you get n-octadecyl thiol, except from china or is that the stuff being substituted with silica spheres plus 200% alcohol. u meant 20% right anyway or am i on the wrong track?

[LetsReplicate]

No one works on the captret because it won't power there house, the same reason no one works on the crystal cells.

The captret runs LEDs at about 10 times normal efficiency. Even if it did nothing else besides this: it is useful and does not deserve to end up buried and forgotten about.

Have you tried adding captrets to these cells? It should be pretty easy, if so: how well did the LED run?

I found to my dismay that when I turned off the house breakers, my one wire connection from the outside ground to the Av plug, the plugs led goes out, also. Oh well...
So, somehow it is the same effect as what you are utilizing and working with. Back to the drawing board, for me. But like the Doc said, switching frequencies to the "right one" should not be hard to do, but it is.
It's like a pigeon shoot in the dark...

That's how they get you: the power always still comes from the wall. Even if you build a 60Hz sympathetic resonator to receive longitudinally there will still be current draw at the nearest transmitter of 60Hz unless you are literally at least 10000km away from it (two wavelengths). I hate the power companies: I want to put them put of business.

You could try driving it with feedback through an op amp, you might be able to just measure the frequency then.