Bedini Ferris Wheel Regauging Motor

[John_Bedini]

Bedini GT16-3

Brent,
Make a jig to hold the rods they must be glued in I just used super glue like I always have done.Make a block to set the coil on with the extending rods so they can be glued make them tight as you can.
I used the thin build- it from tower hobbies.
John

[iankoglin]

Update after repaired circuit on Kogs S1GT

Hi Kog's,

It sounds like your SCR was not triggering properly before your BBQ made sure it was dead.

You might also want to get one (get a few) of those super bright LEDs to put in series with the zener on the SCR. That way you can see that the cap bank is charging and discharging.

I hope this helps...


John K.

G'Day John
Everything is the same as before including 24volt batteries except

I disconnected one of the caps then I replaced the SCR with a TYN825 as that is the only one I have, also I put an LED in series with the Zener on the SCR, and I put an LED in series with the output of the Hall,
NOW I connected the Coil and the Hall then when I connected the Charging battery the LED in series with the SCR immediatly lit up and the caps were loading. I had not as yet connected the Primary battery.
Here is the updated circuit
REpairedCircuit.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket

Here is the circuit before I repaired it
SCRBlewitsTop.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket
I think I followed your circuit pretty close could you please scrutinise it for me I would appreciate it.


Regards Kogs

[iankoglin]

Wire Insulation For 3Gt Coils

G'Day Mr John Bedini
I am intending to purchase the Magnet wire to match your specs for my S1GT including the wire for the side coils.
I have inquired here in Aus for this wire but they do not have the exact AWG guages required to match the specs and also they only want to sell it to me in 25kg spools I do not have the facilities to measure the distance or weight to match these coils so I have inquired Overseas.

To day I received an email from The Director of Marketing for WSWire .com regarding the quotation I was seeking for this magnet wire He asked me

"please identify the build and insulation type of these various size
wires and we will attempt to quote them for you."

I read through all the information on thier web site regarding this subject and I replied to him.

"The insulation I require is for a generator coils so I imagine to use Formvar (RD) with a single build"

I really want this machine to be built correctly so it does not fail in this regard and as I really do not know whether a single build would be OK or should I request a heavy build?

Mr John Bedini could you please tell me if the single build is OK for this Bedini 3GT I am attempting to replicate?

Kindest regards Kogs
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[genessc]

Hi Ian,

Can you draw the schematic and share that instead of the board of components? If so I can perhaps tell you whats wrong. Its hard to tell LED polarity from just what you show in the picture. It sounds like the charge batteries have a path to the source side of the circuit, which is why the LED lit up without any source battery attached/or turned on? Hard to say without a schematic.

Regards,
Gene

G'Day John
Everything is the same as before including 24volt batteries except

I disconnected one of the caps then I replaced the SCR with a TYN825 as that is the only one I have, also I put an LED in series with the Zener on the SCR, and I put an LED in series with the output of the Hall,
NOW I connected the Coil and the Hall then when I connected the Charging battery the LED in series with the SCR immediatly lit up and the caps were loading. I had not as yet connected the Primary battery.
Here is the updated circuit
REpairedCircuit.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket

Here is the circuit before I repaired it
SCRBlewitsTop.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket
I think I followed your circuit pretty close could you please scrutinise it for me I would appreciate it.


Regards Kogs

[genessc]

John B... waveform on discharge and duty cycle?

Hi John B,

Can you please tell me what the waveform looks like and how long of a duty you are seeing/using on the discharge side of the circuit?

Is it a positive offset sawtooth that charges up to double the battery voltage and then discharges into the charge batterys, with the Duty being 50% for each half function? 50% to charge up the sawtooth and then 50% to discharge the sawtooth into the batteries?

Or is it more like 90% to charge the cap via sawtooth and 10% discharge into batteries?

Thanks man,
Gene

[John_K]

G'Day John
Everything is the same as before including 24volt batteries except

I disconnected one of the caps then I replaced the SCR with a TYN825 as that is the only one I have, also I put an LED in series with the Zener on the SCR, and I put an LED in series with the output of the Hall,
NOW I connected the Coil and the Hall then when I connected the Charging battery the LED in series with the SCR immediatly lit up and the caps were loading. I had not as yet connected the Primary battery.
Here is the updated circuit
REpairedCircuit.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket

Here is the circuit before I repaired it
SCRBlewitsTop.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket
I think I followed your circuit pretty close could you please scrutinise it for me I would appreciate it.


Regards Kogs

Hi Kogs,

I have seen this and I think it's because the caps were at a higher voltage than the charge battery.

I always put a volt meter on the caps so I can see what they are doing and so I don't over-charge them.

Are you still using the 30V zener on the SCR? That may be too high for the SCR to handle. I was using a 4.7V zener and two of those 10mm super bright LEDs on a TYN816 (800V 16A) SCR and it worked great at 12V, but I had problems to get the SCR to fire at higher voltages.


John K.

[genessc]

Hi John K,

The SCR gate should be ok with whatever zener in front of it... as it will be the voltage above that zeners rating that will go over the zener and into the gate. If the SCR gate needs 2.8v at 50mA to turn on, then one uses a 5v zener and a 2.8v rated LED, then you will see that the total volts has to reach 7.8v (for both the LED to light and the v of the zener to be reached) and then its from that 7.8v mark that the additional 2.8v has to accrue to push thru the zener into the gate to trigger the SCR. The Zener just adjust what peak volts is reached in the collector cap.

Thus with a 30v zener... the voltage has to be at least at 30v to breach the zener and flow. Depending on the zener watt rating will determine what current is allowed to flow once the voltage rating is breached. (and that has to be accounted for in conjunction with the voltage on the zener, 30v at 1watt zener would be roughly 33mA in current to equal 1 watt at 30v.) I think thats why the LED's were introduced into the gate. To limit current.

What was the LED volt and mA rating for the LED's you used John K?

If the LED's are 2.x volts each plus the 4.7v zener thats about 9v over the battery then in the collector cap thats being discharge into the charge battery. Is that right JB?

If you go to a 24v setting, it seems you'd want to up the zener to 2x or 3x the existing rating while retaining the LED's for current limiting to the gate of the SCR perhaps. The Zener is what is determining the point at which the collect caps peak voltage is being discharged.

Hope thats helpful.
Gene

Hi Kogs,

I have seen this and I think it's because the caps were at a higher voltage than the charge battery.

I always put a volt meter on the caps so I can see what they are doing and so I don't over-charge them.

Are you still using the 30V zener on the SCR? That may be too high for the SCR to handle. I was using a 4.7V zener and two of those 10mm super bright LEDs on a TYN816 (800V 16A) SCR and it worked great at 12V, but I had problems to get the SCR to fire at higher voltages.


John K.

[John_K]

Hi gene & Kog's,

I should've added that I had problems firing the SCR at higher voltages with junk batteries.

When I was running the S1GT at 36v with good, big batteries I had no problems getting the SCR to fire at 43v with the setup I mentioned.

Can you clarify what you mean about upping the rating of the Zener when you go to 24v?


John K.

Hi John K,

The SCR gate should be ok with whatever zener in front of it... as it will be the voltage above that zeners rating that will go over the zener and into the gate. If the SCR gate needs 2.8v at 50mA to turn on, then one uses a 5v zener and a 2.8v rated LED, then you will see that the total volts has to reach 7.8v (for both the LED to light and the v of the zener to be reached) and then its from that 7.8v mark that the additional 2.8v has to accrue to push thru the zener into the gate to trigger the SCR. The Zener just adjust what peak volts is reached in the collector cap.

Thus with a 30v zener... the voltage has to be at least at 30v to breach the zener and flow. Depending on the zener watt rating will determine what current is allowed to flow once the voltage rating is breached. (and that has to be accounted for in conjunction with the voltage on the zener, 30v at 1watt zener would be roughly 33mA in current to equal 1 watt at 30v.) I think thats why the LED's were introduced into the gate. To limit current.

What was the LED volt and mA rating for the LED's you used John K?

If the LED's are 2.x volts each plus the 4.7v zener thats about 9v over the battery then in the collector cap thats being discharge into the charge battery. Is that right JB?

If you go to a 24v setting, it seems you'd want to up the zener to 2x or 3x the existing rating while retaining the LED's for current limiting to the gate of the SCR perhaps. The Zener is what is determining the point at which the collect caps peak voltage is being discharged.

Hope thats helpful.
Gene

[genessc]

Hi John K,

Lets use your own words for the example. (and JB's words as well as he'd noted that he wants the cap to be at Double the battery voltage of the charge battery stack, so if its 12vdc all in parallel then it should have the cap reaching 24vdc then discharging right?)

Your own comment of:
"When I was running the S1GT at 36v with good, big batteries I had no problems getting the SCR to fire at 43v with the setup I mentioned. "

Appears to indicate that the LED volt rating is not 2.x volts. If you have a 7v difference and the Zener is 4.7volts then the remaining voltage is whats being dropped by the two diodes in series feeding into the zener. So thats ~2.3volts divided by the two LED's for about 1.15volts per LED yeah?

So if you want to keep to JB's double the charge stack voltage you have to up the zener rating to get the SCR to hold off firing until the proper volt level is reached in the cap. To figure the new zener rating you need to take the 2.3volts of the LED's into account and then if the target is 24vdc in the cap, the difference of the 24v - 2.3volts is 21.7volts, so you would need about a 20volt zener in that instance (since I dunno if they make a 21.7v zener) and you should be close to the double voltage in the cap prior to the cap discharging into the charge battery stack.

What is interesting to me is that the claim of using double the V of the charge stack doesn't appear to be adhered to with the voltage offset you are using today. You are over the voltage by 9volts for a 12volt charge stack. That implies you would still only ever be 9 volts over the target charge bank if you just took that charge bank with a 12volt cell on it and put another 12volt battery in series for a 24v charge bank. Thus the cap should then be charging to 33volts and then be discharging into the stack. If 36volt battery stack then its reaching 45vdc before discharging into that stack. Do you follow?

The only way you can increase or decrease the amount of volts in the cap over the charge stack is to swap out the zener. Otherwise it retains the same level of voltage above whatever the charge bank of batteries is.

Take care,
Gene

p.s. as regards you using bad batteries... did they have a very low standing voltage level? ie 2-3volts in total for the 6 cell battery? or were they flat out dead with a zero volt reading? The battery has to act like a high impedance to the reactive pulse as this is what pushes back and shuts off the current pulse from an SCR. If the batteries are gone and are just passing the pulse thru and its shorting out then its likely it would never turn off properly. Just some thoughts as regards that comment...

Hi gene & Kog's,

I should've added that I had problems firing the SCR at higher voltages with junk batteries.

When I was running the S1GT at 36v with good, big batteries I had no problems getting the SCR to fire at 43v with the setup I mentioned.

Can you clarify what you mean about upping the rating of the Zener when you go to 24v?


John K.

[Les_K]

back from the shop...

Just an update on my build. I don't have the coils in and still need to mount the sensor, but spins sweet. Still have some adjusting to do. I am a few pages behind on the thread from spending all my spare time in the shop so I'll be doing some catching up...

I just finished watching DVD 22. Sheeeesh! no wonder I could never get my G-field to work right! Great video. Awesome information John B. Thank you!


Les

[iankoglin]

Hi Ian,

Can you draw the schematic and share that instead of the board of components? If so I can perhaps tell you whats wrong. Its hard to tell LED polarity from just what you show in the picture. It sounds like the charge batteries have a path to the source side of the circuit, which is why the LED lit up without any source battery attached/or turned on? Hard to say without a schematic.

Regards,
Gene

G'Day Gene
I appreciate your interest and help I used the same schematic that John K posted in page 28 post 829 I was not able to up load it and I could not post it to photo bucket.
I however was able to make adrawing of what I made so it should be easier to compare instead of the photo.
it is here
KOGSS1GT-1.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket

When I drew it I followed my circuit board and I am sure I copied JK's drawing OK

Kindest regards Kogs

[genessc]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the picture. It sounds like the shorting of your caps cooked more than just the SCR. Is the Zener new? Or is it the same one? Also the 1n5408 you might want to check to make sure its still good going into the collector cap bank.

The way I'd go about troubleshooting is just to test each component individually with the DVM set to diode and make sure that the bias's are still as expected and haven't been blown out. I would start with the Zener since thats right on the SCR.

The other part is if the Hall was connected it might have been blown too and might be acting like constant On tho you didn't note having the source battery attached so not sure if thats as likely as the zener.

It looks like for the SCR you are using you need ~1.3volts at ~40mA so the LED should be ballparked in that region.

Hope thats helpful. Let me know how it goes.
Gene

G'Day Gene
I appreciate your interest and help I used the same schematic that John K posted in page 28 post 829 I was not able to up load it and I could not post it to photo bucket.
I however was able to make adrawing of what I made so it should be easier to compare instead of the photo.
it is here
KOGSS1GT-1.jpg picture by Kogs1 - Photobucket

When I drew it I followed my circuit board and I am sure I copied JK's drawing OK

Kindest regards Kogs

[John_Bedini]

Bedini GT 16-3

Bedini GT 16-3
I think I have been over this a couple hundred times.
I said That I made modifications to the Bedini Cole Switch. I have paralleled the transistors all Bata matched and that the timing must be just right to give the most voltage to the capacitor , Everybody has seen waveforms on how capacitors charge and discharge, yes it's like a sawtooth wave. I also said that you must double the voltage to charge the battery under pulse. Think about what I'm saying about charging batteries under pulse. John K is giving very good advice here about the condition of your batteries. I also said that I'm using a Fet to pulse my batteries and I told you what it was IRF260. I also said that the diodes were mounted as close to the switching rails as possible. Bad sulphated batteries will not work right with the SCR and it will not discharge the energy. The Impedance of the battery is very important with the SCR in you can not have junk batteries, gel cells become a big pain in your As.... as the impedance is all over the place. Discharging the FET you must choose the voltage and then discharge it with the timing wheel if you need to that, this is why I wanted to use the SIDAC to make this simple so everybody could get the same resaults.
John B

[iankoglin]

Update on Kogs S1GT

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the picture. It sounds like the shorting of your caps cooked more than just the SCR. Is the Zener new? Or is it the same one? Also the 1n5408 you might want to check to make sure its still good going into the collector cap bank.

The way I'd go about troubleshooting is just to test each component individually with the DVM set to diode and make sure that the bias's are still as expected and haven't been blown out. I would start with the Zener since thats right on the SCR.

The other part is if the Hall was connected it might have been blown too and might be acting like constant On tho you didn't note having the source battery attached so not sure if thats as likely as the zener.

It looks like for the SCR you are using you need ~1.3volts at ~40mA so the LED should be ballparked in that region.

Hope thats helpful. Let me know how it goes.
Gene

G'Day Gene,John Koorn,Erik and PatricknBolt

I replaced the zener and checked all the other parts everything seemed OK I connected the Charge batt first and immediately the LED showed.

Before I built this circuit board I had made a small cap pulsar circuit to append to my SSG vanilla machine it had as its input the output from the SSG to the Charge batts and the output was to the charge battery the trigger on the SCR was a neon and when the caps came up to 90v the neons across the transistors came on and therefore the battery never charged. I swapped the neon with a 30v zenner and it worked OK. NOW when I was looking at that circuit I found that the zener was reverse to the one on the circuit that blew the top of the SCR I now have reversed the Zener on that board and put a 2nd LED in series to the zener but they are forward biased where as the zener is reversed bias when I connected the board again the LED's did not come on I started the wheel and there is voltage there in the right places BUT there is no charging of the caps and the LED on the hall part of the circuit is very Dim. I checked the Hall and it was still OK.

I took that circuit off and connected a circuit that I had made to just use the hall to turn the wheel as if it is a motor to make sure the magnet placement for triggering the hall to activate the coil are in the right position. It runs the machine OK the transistor does not get hot and it probably rotates 1 per second.

Looks like I will have to rebuild the circuit that blew even though the parts tested OK (I used an incircuit tester for the transistors diodes and the SCR)

By replacing all the parts I will know for sure, as there is only a few parts only.

This is going to happen after about a month as starting on monday I HAVE to start a job that will take a month or so.

I received the quote for the wire today as per JB's specs 8 strands

Main coil 4 strands 4000 feet 2 strands AWG15 and 2 strands AWG 18

Side coils each with 2 strands 2000 feet AWG15

$4368.00 plus delivery
My wife will find out when she reads this post she is looking over my sholder and says NO WAY DON"T EVEN GO THERE

I do not know whether these coils will work on my machine as it is only a 4foot wheel and the magnets may be too close for the coils.If I were to use the coils half the size it would cost only half the price but when I suggested the different specs for different coils the same ohms as JB has said that only Brent has the right specs so I probably will have to make them fit or build a bigger wheel

Thank you for input I will Keep you posted
Kindest regards Kogs

[John_Bedini]

Wire Bedini GT16-3

Kogs,
NO, NO, NO find the wire surplus way too much money.
I did not even spend that with Rick supplying the wire.
JB

G'Day Gene,John Koorn,Erik and PatricknBolt

I replaced the zener and checked all the other parts everything seemed OK I connected the Charge batt first and immediately the LED showed.

Before I built this circuit board I had made a small cap pulsar circuit to append to my SSG vanilla machine it had as its input the output from the SSG to the Charge batts and the output was to the charge battery the trigger on the SCR was a neon and when the caps came up to 90v the neons across the transistors came on and therefore the battery never charged. I swapped the neon with a 30v zenner and it worked OK. NOW when I was looking at that circuit I found that the zener was reverse to the one on the circuit that blew the top of the SCR I now have reversed the Zener on that board and put a 2nd LED in series to the zener but they are forward biased where as the zener is reversed bias when I connected the board again the LED's did not come on I started the wheel and there is voltage there in the right places BUT there is no charging of the caps and the LED on the hall part of the circuit is very Dim. I checked the Hall and it was still OK.

I took that circuit off and connected a circuit that I had made to just use the hall to turn the wheel as if it is a motor to make sure the magnet placement for triggering the hall to activate the coil are in the right position. It runs the machine OK the transistor does not get hot and it probably rotates 1 per second.

Looks like I will have to rebuild the circuit that blew even though the parts tested OK (I used an incircuit tester for the transistors diodes and the SCR)

By replacing all the parts I will know for sure, as there is only a few parts only.

This is going to happen after about a month as starting on monday I HAVE to start a job that will take a month or so.

I received the quote for the wire today as per JB's specs 8 strands

Main coil 4 strands 4000 feet 2 strands AWG15 and 2 strands AWG 18

Side coils each with 2 strands 2000 feet AWG15

$4368.00 plus delivery
My wife will find out when she reads this post she is looking over my sholder and says NO WAY DON"T EVEN GO THERE

I do not know whether these coils will work on my machine as it is only a 4foot wheel and the magnets may be too close for the coils.If I were to use the coils half the size it would cost only half the price but when I suggested the different specs for different coils the same ohms as JB has said that only Brent has the right specs so I probably will have to make them fit or build a bigger wheel

Thank you for input I will Keep you posted
Kindest regards Kogs