Window Motor Replication

[ren]

The voltage on the generator coil is not what it can flow constantly and may be misunderstood. I like to think of it as the potential building up. It is also tied back into the negative leg of the circuit which increases it somewhat. I will do some load tests on the generator side of things when I get around to it. It does have the potential to charge on the back end or pop forward to the primary I believe when done correctly.

As far as a wider diameter rotor goes I cant speak from experience. Maybe I will have to build one of those too.

[tjnlsn255]

Hi Ren,

I was thinking more on the lines of using the shaft output to drive one of these wind turbine PM rotors like Windbluepower.com has....


I wonder how what would work with Rick's no friction flywheel idea... interesting......

Also Ren I just saw your video on your 4 coil SG and was wondering if you could compair the torque between that and the WM and possibly a Newman motor?

Be happy....

Todd

[ren]

Hi,

I never built a four coil sg, the one in my videos is hall switched and is a little more like an Adams motor. Probably the only thing it has in common with the sg is a bifilar coil ( x 4). And a transistor too of course.

I think the idea of driving a conventional style generator in the conventional way kind of defeats the purpose, and will probably result in less than ideal results.

I will illustrate with a little test I did recently.

I had the motor running per spec without a CEMF load attached. On the generating side I had three windings in series to a bridge rectifier. With no load on the generating coil and driving it on 12v 500ma I saw voltages as high as 50v dc. But as soon as you try to draw off that voltage amp draw increases to 1-1.2 amps and the rotor slows down. This charges really well and rotation is sustained, though speed is reduced quite drastically. I can rotate these batteries back and forth many times if I choose. But I have gone over my C20 rating and my rotor offers little torque for input. Perhaps this would be different if the coils were separate and out of phase, perhaps not.

My understanding from studying Bedinis notes is that the generator function must be out of phase with the motor function. Study his notes from his 1984 book. Notice the comutator. 25% duty cycle motor on, 25% off 25% energizer/generator on, 25% off. I think the window is intended to function like this. It could be set up like the cap pulser is perhaps. But use a hall to fire the generator side when the motor is off. It could pulse another battery or hit the source. This is my understanding. Its application may be tricker than that, but thats the general principle I am working towards. It may not even need a cap, you could hit it with the voltage straight off the bridge much like Rick F's self runner with the big energizer coil ontop.

From what I understand the H bridge circuit isolates the power windings from the power source so that the generator function can be fully benefited from.

My 2 cents...

[ren]

I cant really comment on the torque comparison as each build I have done has been drastically different in geometry and configuration. Of course this build has given me the most torque, but it also has 20kg of rotor, the biggest magnets and the most wire out of all my builds.
My 2 cents...

[tjnlsn255]

Bearings for Window Motor?

Does it matter what material the window motor bearings are?

I have a 1/2 inch stainless steel shaft but I thought that I needed stainless steel bearings as well?

I wanted to build my window motor with "good" bearings instead of something I robbed from something else.... but wow the cost....

What type of bearings are used in an alternator?

All the bearings I find on the internet are very expensive.... does anyone know where I can find some bearings for my window motor that will work well and have 1/2 inch inside diameter or would it be better to get a 12mm shaft?

Thanks for any and all help....

Todd

[theremart]

Type of bearings...

I use roller skate bearings.... cheap

Much depends on the size of your replication. But bearings are VERY important ...

Mart

[rickoff]

Re: Bearings

Hi Todd,

Mart is right, and the roller skate bearings are built for rough use, so can handle stresses fairly well.

If you do want to go for some new bearings, check out the many 1/2" inside diameter designs on the following website. They sell good bearings at very reasonable prices:

Ball Bearings:Ceramic & Miniature Bearings: 1/2" inner diameter = 0.500 inch

Check out the mounted bearings (3 types) as they greatly simplify your build, and offer excellent alignment properties.

Good luck to you on your build,

Rick

[ren]

Good tips guys.

Get good sealed bearings, they are the rollerskate/board type where the ball bearings arent removeable. Helps too if the center inner circle has a lip which raises it higher than the wall of the bearing. Not essential, but when it comes time to tightening it up its handy if you dont have a spacer small enough. You can clamp as much pressure as you like against the inner ring, as long as pressure isnt applied to the surface of the bearing, causing friction.


I went to a local shop called Bolts and Bearings. There would have to be a store similar around. Asked for some high speed bearings, you can specify inner and outer dimensions if you like.

Also you can get bearings and remove their seals and get all the grease out of them and lube with sewing machine oil. I used Canola....out of the deep fryer

Make sure your rotor is snug and stable before you wind your coil!

[tjnlsn255]

Thanks for all the info!

My main concern was that the bearings get magnetized and thus apply lots of extra friction and take away free energy... is this not an issue, the bearings do not have to be made of non-magnetic material?

Thanks again.... off to my local industrial supply store to find some bearings.....

Be happy....

Todd

[rickoff]

Reply to Todd

I don't think that magnetization of the bearings will cause any noticeable drag, but if you prefer to install non-magnetic material bearings then check the ceramic and stainless steel bearings at the link given in my last post. They are considerably more expensive, but still reasonable.

Best,

Rick

[tjnlsn255]

Thanks Rick,

VXB has lots of great bearings!

I just found some locally at Grainger that I think will work....

Thanks for all the help and info!

Todd

[ren]

Interesting notes

After MANY hours of fiddling with the Beast I have learnt a few things. I originally had it wired with one wire for power and three in series for a generator coil. I tried multiple setups, cap filling, dumping straight off the bridge, return to source etc. I used a hall and a timing wheel to pulse a relay to make connections between motor pulses. If the generator coil was connected directly it would slow the rotor right down and amperage went up. But if the generator coil was only used when the motor was off the speed only dropped a little and amperage went up about 200ma (as opposed to 1 amp when directly connected.)

I had some very interesting results with back popping, which I wont go into, needless to say that this thing can run off next to nothing.


I thought it was about time for something diffferent so I stripped the generator coil and wired all 5 power windings to the circuit in parallel. WOW.

Each winding connected briefly raises amperage, a sign that more power is available, but then, due to more power, you get more accleration! So when it all settles the amp draw is the same or less if only one winding is used. It gets up to speed ALOT faster too, and best of all, it charges off the original bridge excellently!! With one power winding it would slowly creep up, now with 5 I have less amp draw and it charges great. I have been running it off 24v 500ma for 20min this morning on 7 amp hour batteries (out of C20 I know, I need bigger batteries). It is doing close to 750rpm (laser tacho says 748.2) which is quite scary with all that weight swinging around!

Run battery 24.5, charge battery 24.5, after 20min, run battery 24.3, charge battery 26.2. This is without the back popping to the front end.

Tweaking the resistance on the trigger once it is up to speed can result in an increase in speed and a loss of amp draw (about 100ma per trigger). I think Rick has a setup where he hasn a simple switch to change between low and high resistance, that would be better than the two pots I currently have now.

I can only imagine what this thing would be capable of if it was multicoil, multifilar. There is no doubt in my mind that this thing could turn a decent energizer or more off the torque. All in good time.

[rickoff]

Re: Interesting Notes

Hi Ren,

This is indeed interesting! Running this from just 100ma is super efficient. Just gets better and better! Do you have any idea of the actual torque involved? Any new pics or video?

Best regards,

Rickoff

[ren]

Hi mate,

Im not sure if I confused you, I can get it to run off pretty much nothing (doesnt register on the gauge, its well below 100ma) but it doesnt have max torque at this setting. However, the best torque/speed isnt far from this. Currently the best results I have got is 36v 500-600ma @ 1100rpm and charging 36v battery bank on the back end. Something interesting to note is that if the front end is higher in voltage than the back end the charging goes through the roof. I have only tried this on 24/12v which is a big difference I know, I reckon it would be ideal for the front end to be 1 or 2v higher than the backend. Regardless, it charges good as is, with no cap or SCR, I'll try those soon.

I still cant offer any comments on actual torque figures. I havent been able to make any scientific measurements. I am happy with the circuit now, and I will just be cleaning it up a little and adding some switches etc. And maybe some extra extra safety precautions for the rotor.

I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary No other mechanical difficulties so far with the new strapping, but I still get scared. Just to note. The video of it running on 36v 1amp was around 750rpm. With the tweaks and extra power windings it is over 1000rpm for 5/600ma. Amp draw @ startup is over 7 amps, and it rockets back to under an amp as it speeds up.

I still have some cleaning up to do, but Id love to try the induction motor/generator connected that you suggested. What sort of motor would you suggest? Is a fan the right type of motor? Or perhaps like the motor out of a bench grinder? The rpms for this may be a little hard to match however.


I'll make a new video soon.


S

[Tecstatic]

Make the motor more safe

I will say this. 20kg of rotor spinning over 1000rpm is kinda scary
S

I have seen servo motors with the same principle build-up of the rotor.

In the servo motor the rotor "cylinder" surface had a tight pre-tensioned "coil winding" of glass fiber "wire" along the length of the cylinder, and was secured and fortified with epoxy.

If you want to be able to disassemble the rotor, you could wrap a layer of some foil and then the fiber glass wire upon it. This way it is still strong, and it is possible to dismantle the magnets for a new experiment, if desired.

Eric