COP 17 Heater | Rosemary Ainslie

[Aaron]

definition of energy

Mike,

Do you agree or disagree that the terms "stored energy" and "potential energy" essentially mean the same thing?

.99

Where does the potential come from Poynt? Not the abstract concept of potential, where does it really, really come from and what is it - in the best subatomic analogy you can give, tell me what the potential is?

We are dealing with the study of energetics, which is the study of the movement of potentials, which is only energy when the potential is moving.

The definition of energy is wrong. Energy is the "capacity" to do work? A capacity to do something is a POTENTIAL do to something and that definition says that Energy = Potential.

Potential is the capacity or capability to do work but not actually doing the work.

When potential is put to work and is being dissipated, that is what Energy is.

Potential Energy is the potential for there to be energy but not actually demonstrating anything energetic at all.

There is no such thing as stored energy as energy is the actual movement of potential being put to work.

Even the dictionary definition is profoundly contradictory.

I don't believe this is semantics, it is a matter of having the correct definition of energy and potential and knowing the difference.

Poynt, can you show me one single bit of evidence in the history of mankind that shows there is some increase in the intrinsic properties of a ball's subatomic, atomic or molecular properties while sitting at 20cm compared to at ground level?

It doesn't exist except if they looked they'll find there is less gravitational potential the higher up since it is further from the Earth's mass.

Seeing a ball fall and "release" potential is based 100% on speculation that "there must be" some "stored potential" in the ball at 20cm compared to ground.

Classical thermodynamics is completely based on these little bits of speculation and then they call it a law. That is absurd.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Where does the potential come from Poynt? Not the abstract concept of potential, where does it really, really come from and what is it - in the best subatomic analogy you can give, tell me what the potential is?

We are dealing with the study of energetics, which is the study of the movement of potentials, which is only energy when the potential is moving.

The definition of energy is wrong. Energy is the "capacity" to do work? A capacity to do something is a POTENTIAL do to something and that definition says that Energy = Potential.

Potential is the capacity or capability to do work but not actually doing the work.

When potential is put to work and is being dissipated, that is what Energy is.

Potential Energy is the potential for there to be energy but not actually demonstrating anything energetic at all.

There is no such thing as stored energy as energy is the actual movement of potential being put to work.

Even the dictionary definition is profoundly contradictory.

I don't believe this is semantics, it is a matter of having the correct definition of energy and potential and knowing the difference.

Poynt, can you show me one single bit of evidence in the history of mankind that shows there is some increase in the intrinsic properties of a ball's subatomic, atomic or molecular properties while sitting at 20cm compared to at ground level?

It doesn't exist except if they looked they'll find there is less gravitational potential the higher up since it is further from the Earth's mass.

Seeing a ball fall and "release" potential is based 100% on speculation that "there must be" some "stored potential" in the ball at 20cm compared to ground.

Classical thermodynamics is completely based on these little bits of speculation and then they call it a law. That is absurd.

Mike

[poynt99]

Potential and Kinetic Energy - Definitions

OK,

I get the impression that Rosemary, Mike, and Aaron are all in agreement that potential energy and stored energy do not mean the same thing.

Also, it would seem that we have two camps here that have an opposing understanding of what Potential Energy is and what Kinetic Energy is.

May I ask you guys, strictly about these two definitions of energy, where you got them from? Are you going by your own "new age" view/understanding of them, or is this your interpretation of how it is recorded and taught in mainstream science?

.99

[Aaron]

potential

Notice there is no corresponding negative spike of current going back into the battery, however notice the short red spike on the leading edge?

The spike is VOLTAGE POTENTIAL.

When you put that potential back to the battery, which is DOES go back to the battery and you apply a load, you will get current from that potential.

This is an absolute fact of life.

Do you know why it looks like a spike? Because there is no real width to the spike. Therefore is represents a higher voltage potential. Meaning it is tall but narrow.

It is called voltage potential because that is the movement of that initial potential that is going back to the battery. Potential to do what?

The potential to cause current at a lower voltage with load applied.

If the argument is that there isn't real current associated with the spike, I'm sorry I missed that irrelevant point in the past because that is well, irrelevant.

Take a coil, charge and discharge over and over and over.

Look at this:



It is inverted shot. Bottom bumps are 12 volts at X current charging a coil. When discharged, do you see those multi hundred volt spikes of VOLTAGE POTENTIAL?

Do you know why those spikes are cold? Because there isn't current with them. You can charge a battery with it and charge a cap with it and it charges up. You apply a load and you get lower voltage with CURRENT out of it without putting the current there to begin with.

There is no way you can challenge this Poynt.

Why does a photo flash cap in a camera charge? It is only receiving an inductive little spike with no real current going to the capacitor. Don't tell me it isn't the same thing because it is.

The reason the negative spike on the shunt is a spike is because the RATE OF CHANGE. In DC systems RATE OF CHANGE increased the voltage and not winding ratio.

You apply power to the inductive resistor...that is the slow pulse with wide width to it...that is current plus voltage. When mosfet turns off, it goes back as a spike as indicated at the shunt and the voltage from what I have seen can be up to 4 times the battery voltage. 24v in and 100v spike.

The spike is TIME COMPRESSED and the voltage goes up while the current goes down to virtually nothing. That is POTENTIAL.

The battery stores that potential (it gains something)..or a cap stores the potential (it gains something). A ball at 20cm doesn't gain anything sitting at 20cm.

When you apply a load to the capacitor or battery, that potential stored in that spike turns back into energy when a load is applied causing more current!

I don't know why I haven't even noticed this is what the argument was. The spike is full of potential energy. Again, this shows that the classical training has no idea whatsoever what potential and energy really is.

The spike transfers potential BACK TO THE BATTERY.

Go run it on your simulator. Charge a coil at whatever frequency and make sure you get spikes that show little to no current. charge a capacitor with it. You will see the capacitor charge if the simulator software is worth the plastic it is burned on.

Once the capacitor is charged, apply a load to it an tell me if it powers something with current.

[poynt99]

For those here that have an open mind and would like to know what mainstream science has been teaching about Potential and Kinetic energy for a couple hundred years, see the following:

Potential and Kinetic Energy

By Xu Fang Zou

Potential and kinetic energy are energy partners. When there is motion, energy is kinetic. When there is not motion but there is just about to be motion, energy is potential.

Kinetic energy is the energy of motion. It is measure by how much work must be done to put an object in motion or to rest.

Potential energy is stored energy. Sometimes potential energy is also called gravitational potential energy because it is mostly determined by gravity.

Potential vs Kinetic Energy Throwing a ball into the air is a good example of how kinetic and potential energy work. In this scenario, there is a continuous change from kinetic energy to potential energy.

Imagine a ball lying on the ground without motion. At this point, both kinetic and potential energy are at zero. When the ball is tossed into the air, there is a burst of kinetic energy. As the ball reaches its maximum height, the kinetic energy gets smaller and smaller. Finally it becomes zero. Meanwhile, the potential energy is increasing. As the ball reaches its maximum height, its velocity is zero. Now all the energy in the process is saved as potential energy.

When the ball begins to fall down to the ground, the potential energy is once again gradually converted to kinetic energy. Finally, the ball lands on the ground and becomes motionless.

The energy cycle will begin once more when the ball is picked up and thrown again.



Source: http://www.greenscreen.org/articles_...AndKinetic.htm

My Note: Even if the ball was stopped in mid-air and held there by velcro or a hand or a shelf, it would retain the Potential Energy at that point (potential to do work) until it again fell to the ground. This is just one source among thousands which say essentially the same thing. Do a web search or open a Grade 6 or 7 physics text book.

.99

[witsend]

OK,

I get the impression that Rosemary, Mike, and Aaron are all in agreement that potential energy and stored energy do not mean the same thing.

Also, it would seem that we have two camps here that have an opposing understanding of what Potential Energy is and what Kinetic Energy is.

May I ask you guys, strictly about these two definitions of energy, where you got them from? Are you going by your own "new age" view/understanding of them, or is this your interpretation of how it is recorded and taught in mainstream science?

.99

Hi Poynt - am wide awake again. And in the middle of the fray. It really doesn't matter how different people wake up to the realisation that OU is just everywhere. It only matters that they see it. But in terms of electric circuitry - it is in those collapsing magnetic fields from potential difference transferred from the source to the coil - be it an inductor, a resistor or both. It's difficult to argue once it's been pointed to. And I've yet to find, even among the experts, that they will argue it once seen. Not that they'll acknowledge it unless it's given to them in the form of a published paper.

Mike - I saw your post re 'threats'. I'm scared for my personal safety for the first time in my life. I'm menaced on and off the forum. Who's doing this? Is it government? And how are they going to stop this truth from reverberating just everywhere? It's getting too widely understood. So why the menace to the few. It's making martyrs surely?

[Aaron]

current???

Poynt,

With the diode disconnected from the inductor...going to a separate location, are you able to show how much current is in that inductive spike that I'm using to charge a capacitor?

How much current? I really want to know. Show me the current compared to the current that left to charge the inductor to begin with.

How much current does your simulator show is leaving that diode going to a capacitor for example or even a battery. I wonder what your simulator will show on my scope shot with 12v with the hundreds of volts spikes coming out.

2000 turns
23 awg wire
core is about 2.5 inches tall
and core diameter is 0.75 inches

Apply 12volts from a 12v 7ah battery at about 1000 Hz.
What spikes do you get and how much current is in those spikes?

What does the current probe show?

[Aaron]

about to move?

When there is not motion but there is just about to be motion, energy is potential.

Right, I learned that in high school physics. And it is seeing reality inverse of what is really happening, with flaws.

And the concept of something ABOUT to be put in motion energy suddenly turns into potential?

So an object has a consciousness to know how to shift its atomic matrix that makes up is mass right BEFORE it is about to move and suddenly some magical transformation occurs changing the properties of the ball right before it is about to move? The ball uses its third eye to see that it will just about to begin moving?

See? The classical definition has nothing to do with reality, it is all these abstract concepts that have no concrete meaning to them. They're completely fabricated illusions based on fantasy.

[Aaron]

information

And how are they going to stop this truth from reverberating just everywhere? It's getting too widely understood.

This forum alone has over 40,000 registered members. Many people that don't participate subscribe to these threads and get the posts mailed to them as they are posted.

This forum is in multiple archives on the internet.

Here is an example of the arhive:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070302222353/http://www.energeticforum.com/

Shows on that date, there were only36 members. 2 years ago...

There are thousands of people learning all of this and sharing it with others. These forums are linked to and referenced on hundreds of websites all over the world.

[poynt99]

Re. Long Post #1205:

Aaron,

I am open minded when it comes to batteries being charged by pulses, in terms of the possibility that they can be "persuaded" to charge more efficiently this way, and I accept 100% that a capacitor can be readily charged by feeding the flyback to them. I have done it in the simulator and on a pulse motor.

So I am not sure what point you are contending with me at this juncture?

Regarding your test coil specs. Do you have numbers for inductance and DC resistance? I would need that for an accurate simulation of your coil. At the very least if you don't have an inductance meter, the DC resistance is still helpful. I will take a WAG at the inductance.

Another thing that can be helpful is the outer coil diameter, You gave 0.75" as the inner diameter correct? With this (the outer coil diameter) and the DC resistance I can use one of the online calculators such as this one:Coil Calculator - Single-layer and mutil-layer coil calculation in javascript

Also, what value of charging capacitance would you like me to use for this sim?

.99

[witsend]

Where does the potential come from Poynt? Not the abstract concept of potential, where does it really, really come from and what is it - in the best subatomic analogy you can give, tell me what the potential is?

We are dealing with the study of energetics, which is the study of the movement of potentials, which is only energy when the potential is moving.

The definition of energy is wrong. Energy is the "capacity" to do work? A capacity to do something is a POTENTIAL do to something and that definition says that Energy = Potential.

Potential is the capacity or capability to do work but not actually doing the work.

When potential is put to work and is being dissipated, that is what Energy is.

Potential Energy is the potential for there to be energy but not actually demonstrating anything energetic at all.

There is no such thing as stored energy as energy is the actual movement of potential being put to work.

Even the dictionary definition is profoundly contradictory.

I don't believe this is semantics, it is a matter of having the correct definition of energy and potential and knowing the difference.

Poynt, can you show me one single bit of evidence in the history of mankind that shows there is some increase in the intrinsic properties of a ball's subatomic, atomic or molecular properties while sitting at 20cm compared to at ground level?

It doesn't exist except if they looked they'll find there is less gravitational potential the higher up since it is further from the Earth's mass.

Seeing a ball fall and "release" potential is based 100% on speculation that "there must be" some "stored potential" in the ball at 20cm compared to ground.

Classical thermodynamics is completely based on these little bits of speculation and then they call it a law. That is absurd.

I agree with Mike on this. It deserves endorsement over and over and over.

[Aaron]

voltage pressure

To try to answer your two questions. For the first, we can go back to the spring analogy. Imagine a spring 200 meters long and when you start compressing it for every meter you compress the spring, the spring pushes back with 10 Newtons of force.

When you have compressed the spring by 100 meters, the force through the spring is 1000 Newtons. You imagine that the spring has no mass or intertia, it is just a pure pushing force. If you stand there and hold the spring in place with no movement, there is no velocity, so the voltage is zero. Your pushing on the spring without moving is of course like DC current flowing through an inductor.

Um, voltage is pressure and the higher the voltage the higher the pressure. Just like gas pressure, since gas pressure is the identical accurate analogy of voltage - and even Tesla compared the voltage to a gas made of a "subatomic" gas - magnetic particles, virtual photons fluxing in the vacuum, whatever. Mendeleev originally had 2 elements smaller than hydrogen because to him, and element was an element and not necessarily an atom...that was all bastardized afterward just like everything else has been but anyway...

If you fill a balloon to 20psi and stop, there is STILL 20psi there is no velocity of air moving in the balloon.

This should be common sense.

Fill a capacitor to 1000 volts. There is nothing moving, at the practical level, but I guarantee you there is 1000 volts of pressure in that cap.

When you compress the spring, the voltage comparison is the PRESSURE of the spring pushing back at you. Even if it is not moving and you hold it there, that pressure IS what the voltage is.

If a coil has zero voltage, explain a scope shot showing a coil being charged then discharged.

I feel like I'm being convinced that I'm supposed to believe that I'm in Bizaarro world:
Bizarro World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And I'm having conversations with Mister Mxyzptlk

Mister Mxyzptlk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Please repeat after me: Kltpzyxm

I'm just messing with you MH but my points above are ignored by you. Voltage is pressure. A coil charged is like a balloon charged. When charged, the balloon has pressure even if you are not blowing air into it anymore.

Charge a capacitor (compress the spring) and you have the voltage right there.

Am I arguing something different here or am I seeing what I think I'm seeing? I guess I'm practically dumbstruck at the claim.

[MileHigh]

Aaron:

There are indeed different ways to model something so the pressure that you feel a spring exerting can be modeled as voltage. However, the model that I was using has the mechanical pressure through a compressed spring analogous to the current through an inductor, and the velocity between the two ends of the spring analogous to the voltage across the inductor.

MileHigh

P.S. Ha ha... the air inside the baloon is moving!

P.P.S. > If a coil has zero voltage, explain a scope shot showing a coil being charged then discharged.
It would be worthwhile reading through the last 10 pages of the thread in a week for a second go-through!

Me!:
The voltage across a coil is proportional to how fast the current going through the coil changes with respect to time!

[Aaron]

battery

I am open minded when it comes to batteries being charged by pulses, in terms of the possibility that they can be "persuaded" to charge more efficiently this way, and I accept 100% that a capacitor can be readily charged by feeding the flyback to them.

So I am not sure what point you are contending with me at this juncture?

Regarding your test coil specs. Do you have numbers for inductance and DC resistance? I would need that for an accurate simulation of your coil. At the very least if you don't have an inductance meter, the DC resistance is still helpful. I will take a WAG at the inductance.

Another thing that can be helpful is the outer coil diameter, You gave 0.75" as the inner diameter correct? With this (the outer coil diameter) and the DC resistance I can use one of the online calculators such as this one:Coil Calculator - Single-layer and mutil-layer coil calculation in javascript

Also, what value of charging capacitance would you like me to use for this sim?

.99

Poynt,

In this case, the simulation isn't needed. Your simulation shows no real current moving back into the battery. I can accept that if I see just a spike returning because I know what that means and I know what it does to the battery. And I don't see a reason to claim there is current moving into the battery...there is definitely a high voltage potential spike returning.

But if the claim is that current isn't going to the battery so it can't get charged, then I would have to dispute that based thousands of hours of experiments over almost the last 10 years specifically on this "phenomena."

Electrostatic pressure in impulses hitting the terminal of the battery causes charge separation in the battery. Charge separation in the battery is an increase in potential difference between the terminals...hence the voltage increase. With a load, that potential becomes voltage moving from the positive terminal of the battery over the wire's surface toward the negative terminal of the battery. "Electron current" moves in the opposite direction.

The impulses of voltage potential spikes absolutely give real recharging to the battery and I'd hope that you would at some point prove it to yourself with actual experiment. It is actually quite a trip to see that the battery charges stone cold as well as the load powering capability increasing with each charge and discharge cycle.

That is the opposite of hot current charging where each charge discharge cycle allows the load to be powered less and less and less. Typical sulfation and other heat damage degrading it with each cycle.

[Aaron]

Ainslie circuit

Basically with the Ainslie circuit, you can't help but to have free energy pouring out of your ears.