Eric P. Dollard

[dR-Green]

You got that 100% correct, bro

He is using the water as the conductor.

That is why he using a boat and not a car on rubber wheels...

Are you sure he's using the water as a conductor between transmitter and receiver, because I can't see any wires going into the water, and he explains the water as being the "return path to earth". That is, he is describing it in conventional terms. He's not saying the energy is coming in from the earth/water, he is saying it's returning to earth through the water?? Like a normal circuit. And in this case, why is his terminal capacitance sphere so high in the air? If it was working properly then he could make it a lot neater than that, no need to have a big mast on the boat sticking up in the air.

If he was "cheating" then he could use something like an AV plug and employ the water as a virtual ground, not needing any connection between transmitter and receiver. This way the water would be the "return" path like he describes.

[Kokomoj0]

Coulomb's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I really do not care about an idealized example of an electric charge.

I am talking about a charge that is moving not static and you really should quote what you feel is the pertinent part.

You arent off the hook yet with that tem business either.

[lamare]

so tm is something other than tem?

Yes, the tm mode is actually short for TM,LD mode, whereby the magnetic component is perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave, and the electric is in the same direction as the propagation direction of the wave, hence longitudinal.

With the TEM mode, both are perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and in that situation both are spiralling around the propagation direction of the wave.

Note that in all cases the electric field and the magnetic field are perpendicular with respect to one another.

how can you have tem modes if you cancel the tem?

When you cancel them, they cease to exist. Just like you can cancel sound with anti-sound.

again you are presuming the lmd somehow comes into existence and or is proven as a result of the tem mode. I have seen nothing to that effect.

No, the lmd is a distincly different propagation mode from the TEM. It is one and the same as the TM,LD mode whereby you have the magnetic perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and the electric longitudinal with respect to the propagation direction.

This is the mode used commercially these days by Elmore, as I posted some time ago:

Interestingly, at this Wikipedia article, we find a reference to the so-called E-Line, which refers to the article I posted before, which shows that you can actually do without the dielectric, but you need those launchers/catchers ( http://www.corridor.biz/FullArticle.pdf ) :

And since we like a picture, here's one, linked from E-Line:Technology :

Source: Animation of modeled E-fields for a TM mode wave propagating on a perfect conductor

So, it looks like it is possible to transfer the energy using a single line, provided everything is tuned correctly.

The E-Line stuff suggests you may need these kinds of launchers in order to accomplish what Tesla wanted "I do not permit the energy to go out":

So, it appears that if you use the earth as a transmission line by bringing it into resonance using a TMT, it works because of the presence of the atmosphere, while when using one wire to connect transmitter and receiver, you have to take extra steps in order to prevent radiaton into space.


Update: Coming to think of it, it may be worthwhile to try and take a coax cable for the one-wire connecting transmitter and receiver, provided everything is tuned correctly. IIRC, in the article about the E-line, they explained their e-line basically as a coax cable with the shield being somewhere at infinity.... So, you should probably be able to prevent radiation using a coax cable instead of an uninsulated wire.

Update 2: Found some patents by Elmore, which show a.o. the construction details of the launchers/catchers: Directory contents of /pdf/Patents/Elmore/

What is confusing, is that with a coil you have multiple modes being present at the same time:

1) You have the TEM mode propagating more or less around the coil; and
2) the LDM or TM,LD mode propagating more or less in the length direction of the coil.

These two together result in an energy flow spiralling around the coil. At low frequencies (below the natural resonance frequency of the coil), the LDM mode is insignificant, so all you see then is the TEM mode.

At much higher frequencies, the LDM mode sticks its head out of the dirt, and you get a mix of both.

ONLY in the specific situation that the TEM mode spiralling around the coil cancels itself out, you are left with a pure longitudinal mode, whereby all magnetic fields are cancelled out.

[Kokomoj0]

Given that its a time variant property that is a static field description. if the charge was to move a current would be induced, and since the plates of the capacitor are parallel to each other there is a perpendicular B field induced.

this is why geometry is everything.

and whenever you have a moving charge you have an intrinsic magnetic counterpart. I have seen lots of talk around it but not direct on target.

So once you have a current you cannot get rid of its magnetic counterpart, the only thing you can do is absorb as much as possible back into the system.

[madhatter]

You got that 100% correct, bro



He is using the water as the conductor.

That is why he using a boat and not a car on rubber wheels...

I've been thinking about this, we are all familiar with the counterpoise needed for wave propagation of hertzian fields, hence a ground. Tesla did indeed mention flying so that rules out an earth ground.

It may be a case of 'virtual' ground, but the ground is the ether, dark matter what ever one wants to call it, counterpoised against the dielectric in counter-space. If that is possible then it doesn't matter what your location is, I come to this theory due to the wave nature of matter. matter like the earth is a counterpoise to the dielectric and if matter is a wave function then we should theoretically be able to create a ground anywhere we like in space. also has implications as to what gravity is, it's not a matter of shielding gravity but altering the field effect.

[madhatter]

and whenever you have a moving charge you have an intrinsic magnetic counterpart. I have seen lots of talk around it but not direct on target.

So once you have a current you cannot get rid of its magnetic counterpart, the only thing you can do is absorb as much as possible back into the system.

If the B field is perpendicular to E field due to the geometry of the line it will always be that way. what is interesting to notice is that it can be manipulated but this requires creating a resonant wave with a geometry where the phase shift rotates the B field to a as I see it a singularity. once this occurs then you'll have a LM wave. the Extra coil is also a key feature in that it is a load and virtual termination point for the originating transverse wave at resonance, if the extra coil was not in place then any circuit added to the secondary would alter the resonant point and no pure longitudinal wave would be possible. I could be wrong but it's purely based on the effect of series circuits,the secondary coil starts the transformation and the extra coil magnifies the wave by being the end termination for the transverse wave to maintain resonance, if there is a load placed upon the circuit.

[Kokomoj0]

Yes, the tm mode is actually short for TM,LD mode, whereby the magnetic component is perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave, and the electric is in the same direction as the propagation direction of the wave, hence longitudinal.

With the TEM mode, both are perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and in that situation both are spiralling around the propagation direction of the wave.

Note that in all cases the electric field and the magnetic field are perpendicular with respect to one another.



When you cancel them, they cease to exist. Just like you can cancel sound with anti-sound.

How do you cancel them since as you can see from your picture that they simply superimpose?

No, the lmd is a distincly different propagation mode from the TEM. It is one and the same as the TM,LD mode whereby you have the magnetic perpendicular with respect to the propagation direction of the wave and the electric longitudinal with respect to the propagation direction.

This is the mode used commercially these days by Elmore, as I posted some time ago:




What is confusing, is that with a coil you have multiple modes being present at the same time:

1) You have the TEM mode propagating more or less around the coil; and
2) the LDM or TM,LD mode propagating more or less in the length direction of the coil.

These two together result in an energy flow spiralling around the coil. At low frequencies (below the natural resonance frequency of the coil), the LDM mode is insignificant, so all you see then is the TEM mode.

At much higher frequencies, the LDM mode sticks its head out of the dirt, and you get a mix of both.

ONLY in the specific situation that the TEM mode spiralling around the coil cancels itself out, you are left with a pure longitudinal mode, whereby all magnetic fields are cancelled out.

you talk about that as if it were an absolute fact do you have any data on that? tem is set up as a result of a boundary condition so I am not sure what you are driving at.

Types of modes

Transverse modes are classified into different types:

• TE modes (Transverse Electric) no electric field in the direction of propagation.
• TM modes (Transverse Magnetic) no magnetic field in the direction of propagation.
• TEM modes (Transverse ElectroMagnetic) neither electric nor magnetic field in the direction of propagation.
• Hybrid modes nonzero electric and magnetic fields in the direction of propagation.

Some authors use an alternate notation;

• H modes have a magnetic field component in the direction of propagation. H modes are equivalent to TE modes.
• E modes have an electric field component in the direction of propagations. E modes are equivalent to TM modes.

you have not posted any evidence of the existence of an LD mode

[lamare]

Forewarning, what you are about to read is HIGHLY theoretical, full of personal bias, and is likely to contain numerous errors, read at your own risk.

Lamare,

I don’t wish to create an argument, but I thought I would give a few comments to the reply you gave to my recent post.

Don't worry about arguing about this stuff. It is only by exchanging our points of view that we can learn from one another and gain new insights. That is what scientific debate is supposed to be...

It is plain to for all to see that we both use different types of analysis and we also rely heavily on different systems of electrical engineering. I get the feeling that you are more of a “physicist”, deeply concerned with material and “immaterial” PARTICLES and “quantum madness”, rather than a “electro-mechanical engineer”, who is deeply concerned with electrical forces, fields & gradients along with mechanical forces and gradients. I would say you’re like a Richard Feynman type “quantum physicist”. I would like to say (if I may be so bold) that I am more of a (lesser) Steinmetz type of engineer. The two distinct logic systems used by both parties are usually not compatible, they overlap on many levels and appear on the “effective level” to be the same, BUT at the “fundamental level” they are vastly different.

Yes, I think i am more of a “physicist” than an engineer in that sense that I try to understand the fundamentals of what I see. I need a deep understanding of the fundamentals behind the stuff I work with in order to make sense of what is going on. I cannot take a mathematical equation and just stay with the logic expressed in the math. I need to visualize what the math means in order to understand it.

But I am definitely not a “quantum physicist”. I am an aether physicist.

In the standard “Maxwellian Electrodynamics” as used and taught today, which has been turned into Ensteinian dogma, the “electric field vector” is E (volts per meter), the “magnetic field vector” is H (amperes per meter) and the Poynting vector (electro-magnetic energy) is S (volt-amps per meter square). This is only a SMALL PART of what is going on, there is NO WAY THAT THESE ALONE CAN DESCRIBE PURE LONGITUDINAL ENERGY, (most transverse situations can be described by the above though). Let’s continue this topic further on, after we cover a few pertinent points.

I agree with that. And since the electromagnetic propagation modes that are described in the textbooks contain some longitudinal modes, whereby the other component is by definition transverse, you can describe these by the Maxwell equations.

Let’s look at the STEINMETZ POINT OF VIEW. Steinmetz came up with his OWN IDEA OF REALATIVITY and DISCARDED MAXWELL, quite interesting if you ask me.

I discard BOTH relativity AND the current Maxwell equations:

Tuks DrippingPedia : Ruins 96 Years Einstein Relativity

Steinmetz also incorporated large amounts of Heaviside’s work (which had many disagreements with maxwells theory) and developed a new type of engineering perspective of the Electric Circuit and Transmission Lines. Steinmetz had a more advanced (in my opinion) way of looking at things because he was an engineer that ACTUALLY MADE THINGS and ACTUALLY DELT WITH VERY LARGE POWER SYSTEMS (multi-megawatt). This is something we all take for granted, we each believe a book can teach us everything, well experience cannot be taught via paper, it is something that only blood, sweat, and tears with actual application can produce.

I also make things, most notably my attempt to perform a longitudinal moonbounce. And I also ran into significant problems that taught me a lot...

From the portions I have read of his various books, Steinmetz has built his own “sand box” a system of logic and mathematics separate from Maxwell (but does contain some Maxwellian concepts). In this system we have the Electric Field as POWER not Volts per Meter, using the Dollard symbolism it is denoted with Q (which is actually the “electric flux” of the field and does not necessarily denote any one specific vector), where the Poynting vector S denotes the TEM PORTION of the Electric Field. The Dielectric Field is denoted with G (that’s right CAPITAL G, lowercase g was for conductance). Dielectric energy isn’t necessarily VOLTS (e, proportion) it can also be AMPERES (I, induction) this is a fundamental point that separates it from the “electric field vector E” used today. Also Magnetic energy isn’t necessarily AMPERES (i, proportion) it can also be VOLTS (E, induction) once again this is different from “magnetic field vector H” used today. With these differences, we slowly develop the “QUADRA-POLAR” view of electricity starting with Steinmetz’s and carried further with Mr. Dollard with incorporation of the Bewelly transformer theory. This is also where the four distinct co-effients L, M, K & C come into play.

Now back to the first topic, the orthogonal E, H and S vectors as used today CANNOT describe the WHOLE SITUATION.

That is what I have been saying also....

And ALL theories trying to incorporate a union of the dielectric and magnetic fields CANNOT describe the WHOLE situation either, because magnetism is in essence the rotational form of the dielectric.

There are TWO counter ROATATING S vectors. Also, the orthogonal E & H vectors don’t directly represent the Dielectric and Magnetic fields. The USUAL understanding of these vectors ONLY GIVES THE TRANSVERSE portion of whats going on.

Yes, and that is because you in essence describe a union of one single phenomenon with a particular shape of this same phenomenon that happens to run around in circles, that rotates.

If the two counter rotating S vectors sum to a Zero-Vector what does it mean to modern “physics”? What does the NON-orthogonal alignment of the E and H vectors mean to modern physics? What does non transverse propagation mean to modern physics? To be honest I don’t know, but it would seem (to me) that we can’t use modern physics to describe these things.

It is essence simply defined away. Non transverse propagation is undefined and therefore cannot exist according to modern "physics".

The “Electric Field” as taught to day has little to do with anything Steinmetz or Mr. Dollard have written about, it mostly pertains to the MAXWELLIANS who insist on its use. Furthermore, THE ELECTRIC FIELD ISN’T JUST TRANSVERSE ENERGY it contains LONGITUDINAL ENERGY as well.

Exactly. And as soon as you insist on a union of the electric field with it's rotating shape, you loose the whole longitudinal part in your equations.

I am not saying I have an answer to the problem of the non-periodic solution of a “longitudinal dielectric wave” (or the significance of the Electric Field when in the pure Longitudinal Mode). What I am saying, is that just as with TEM waves (TE, TM & TEM), THERE IS MORE THAN ONE MODE OF PROPAGATION with longitudinal waves (LD, LM & LMD). The Magnetic Field is present in TWO of the longitudinal modes; only in ONE mode is the longitudinal dielectric field “free” or independent of the (transverse) magnetic field.

Exactly. And it is that ONE mode that is missing, because everyone insist on the union of the electric field with it's rotating shape, the magnetic field.

The magnetic field is just a special case of the electric field, because the electric field is nothing other than the pressure of the aether, a fluid-like medium, which can obviously rotate, which is what magnetism is.

If your focus is solely on the LD wave, what you say makes more sense, but REMEMBER it ISN’T the only Longitudinal mode of propagation. I wish you luck in your endeavors, and hopefully someone can tidy up the confusion around longitudinal waves WITHOUT involving “quantum madness”, “scalar insanity” or other absurd farces.

I was aware there was a distinction, but thanks to the discussion today, it has become much clearer to me today.

Thanks to the comments here, I realized that the Tesla transmitter most likely actually transforms the LMD mode in the secondary into a LD mode in the "extra" coil, while being driven from a TEM mode in the primary...

I hope to be able to have some simulations made of the pancake coil in the near future, because if that is operating in LD/LMD mode, one should be able to simulate it just fine with current software...

[madhatter]

Kokomoj0, are you looking for physical proof? or mathematical theory?
I view that the videos of the radio reception are proof of tel-uric currents, however the pics of experiments Eric did with the extra coil are downright baffling and would point to longitudinal waves as TEM waves can not exhibit those behaviors.

The mathematical theory has basic structure but is not fully finished.

[dR-Green]

Tesla did indeed mention flying so that rules out an earth ground.

I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important

[t-rex]

NFG Coming!

The following is from Alternating Current Phenomena, Fifth Edition, C.P. Steinmetz, Art. 50

[madhatter]

I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important

Honestly I hadn't given it much thought until I related to the counter-space of the dielectric and how I see it the B-field rotation to a singularity.
In simpler terms, theoretically a perfect setup as Tesla more than likely designed do not radiate any hertzian waves, this would mean that a grounded counterpoise or at the least a single wire connection is no longer needed, a true wireless system comes into existence. The 'stress' if we call it that in the dielectric would be everywhere and everywhen, the ether would become the 'link' not sure if it's a conductor or collector but it would indeed be the 'link'. then anywhere a receptive antenna is put it would collect the 'signal' or power of the transmitter regardless of distance or spacial location. the receptive antennae connects to the transmitting antennae thru counter-space. The transmitter would need a ground if starting with a conventional TEM wave, an air to air setup would require the use of starting with an 'electrostatic' LD wave, much like the phenomenon of cloud to cloud lightning.

[Farmhand]

I'm stumped when it comes to flying. With big enough capacitances and receiving plates it's possible to get some power without any physical connection (and unmatched coils), but the power drops off very quickly using the grounded side as coil output. So I have no idea how he intended to do that. This video shows someone achieving flight, but we all know that if he moved further away from the coil then it would come crashing down to the ground.

Worlds's 1st wireless Flight of A Tesla Coil powered helicopter(no batteries) - YouTube

And I assume this thing is powered with the radiated (wasted) field (not to mention the construction is wrong but ignoring that). Then seeing as Tesla could bias the ground currents vs radiation depending on how it was set up, it doesn't look like that one transmitter would have been capable of doing everything he proposed all at the same time. Unless I'm missing something very important

I don't think that saucer is powered by the Tesla coil, we can see the
resonant receiver beside it and the effect of motor connected to it, it's hardly
turning. He has batteries in it I think. The others are powered by solar panels,
induction ect. It is possible the saucer is somewhat charged by the Tesla coil
but in my opinion it is not powered by the Tesla coil and it is a trick or he
would have proved it better. I also don't think it can work quite like that.

Tesla intended to power planes did he have that capability ? Or was it
something he envisioned and was planning to sort out the details later?

The planes (if they had no storage/accumulators) would need to draw a lot of
energy constantly or they would drop, if they had accumulators they would
only need draw energy at intervals. I don't think batteries in a plane are a
good idea though.

Tesla does show receivers with two aerial plates spaced at the correct
distance to give a potential difference. think that is the path to take for
aerial vehicles and cars could use a capacitive link to the ground maybe.

If two plates are placed at an odd multiple of the 1/4 WL distance apart then
they will show a potential difference which can power stuff.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

Honestly I hadn't given it much thought until I related to the counter-space of the dielectric and how I see it the B-field rotation to a singularity.
In simpler terms, theoretically a perfect setup as Tesla more than likely designed do not radiate any hertzian waves, this would mean that a grounded counterpoise or at the least a single wire connection is no longer needed, a true wireless system comes into existence. The 'stress' if we call it that in the dielectric would be everywhere and everywhen, the ether would become the 'link' not sure if it's a conductor or collector but it would indeed be the 'link'. then anywhere a receptive antenna is put it would collect the 'signal' or power of the transmitter regardless of distance or spacial location. the receptive antennae connects to the transmitting antennae thru counter-space. The transmitter would need a ground if starting with a conventional TEM wave, an air to air setup would require the use of starting with an 'electrostatic' LD wave, much like the phenomenon of cloud to cloud lightning.

That's interesting But like Farmhand says I wonder if it was something he planned and hadn't actually achieved/confirmed experimentally yet. A high altitude test like that wouldn't be easy to set up.

[dR-Green]

I don't think that saucer is powered by the Tesla coil, we can see the
resonant receiver beside it and the effect of motor connected to it, it's hardly
turning. He has batteries in it I think. The others are powered by solar panels,
induction ect. It is possible the saucer is somewhat charged by the Tesla coil
but in my opinion it is not powered by the Tesla coil and it is a trick or he
would have proved it better. I also don't think it can work quite like that.

Lol, yeah maybe you're right. As far as the plates are concerned, how would you take off and land, because the distance would change. And I expect the plates would need to be pretty massive, would the plane itself even be big enough I wonder.

Does anyone know of any more information from Tesla besides the fact it was a part of the overall plan for the ideal system to power things?