Will capitalism survive 'value abundance' (Open Source)?

[poii]

Here is a salient piece on what this forum is about and its effects on the economy.

The $100bn Facebook question: Will capitalism survive 'value abundance'?
Open-source software, shared innovation and crowd-sourced manufacturing threaten capitalism as we know it.



The $100bn Facebook question: Will capitalism survive 'value abundance'? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

[blackchisel97]

No. It will become an obsolete term which won't have any meaning anymore. Facebook too

V

[Bizzy]

Here is a salient piece on what this forum is about and its effects on the economy.

The $100bn Facebook question: Will capitalism survive 'value abundance'?
Open-source software, shared innovation and crowd-sourced manufacturing threaten capitalism as we know it.



The $100bn Facebook question: Will capitalism survive 'value abundance'? - Opinion - Al Jazeera English

Good morning
The short version is it will survive.
Maybe not in the same form it does now but capitalism will endure. Everytime facism (like we have in the US today) takes control capiptalism creeps in and helps the people live where the government cannot. The best example is the Soviet Union. When thier collective farms failed they encouraged farmers by othering them to keep some of the food(equals profit of thier work) as a reward. And what do you know they had food.
During the height of the Cold War I took a trip to East Berlin( I wanted to see it before we blew it up) and the black market/capitalism was working just fine. I was able to sell $10 blue jeans for an equivalant of$50.
Capitalism will survive be cause it is natural and it works.
IMHO
Bizzy

[jibbguy]

The more salient question would be: Will we survive the vast corruption, controlled markets, monopolies, and illegal trusts of the energy sector? The answer to that is probably not, unless more of us wake up to it and start paying attention. The Fukushima Fission Nuclear Disaster, and the BP Gulf Disaster, are warnings of how bad it can get. The next one will personally affect our lives and futures where we live.

[Bizzy]

The more salient question would be: Will we survive the vast corruption, controlled markets, monopolies, and illegal trusts of the energy sector? The answer to that is probably not, unless more of us wake up to it and start paying attention. The Fukushima Fission Nuclear Disaster, and the BP Gulf Disaster, are warnings of how bad it can get. The next one will personally affect our lives and futures where we live.

Hi jibbguy
civilization may not survive another castrophy, but I know I will. We are ready with a secure place, safe water, sustainable food, ammunition and enough items to barter with So I say bring it on.
Bizzy

[jibbguy]

I don't want to live in a destroyed environment and civilization... to survive a few months longer watching the horrors... killing desperately starving neighbors to survive, only to then soon die a horrible death from poison or radiation anyway.

No thanks.

I would rather avoid the catastrophes in the first place.

This is the fallacy of survivalist thinking. First, it is unrealistic. Second, it is a misdirection of energy and time. Third, it is way overly-romanticized and frankly delusional.

[Bizzy]

I don't want to live in a destroyed environment and civilization... to survive a few months longer watching the horrors... killing desperately starving neighbors to survive, only to then soon die a horrible death from poison or radiation anyway.

No thanks.

I would rather avoid the catastrophes in the first place.

This is the fallacy of survivalist thinking. First, it is unrealistic. Second, it is a misdirection of energy and time. Third, it is way overly-romanticized and frankly delusional.

Hi jibguy
Yes I am a survivalist in addition to other things. However I disagree with you 1000% My family will surrvive any desaster whether it is natural, economic, or intentional. To allow you and your family to die needlessly when you could have prepared before hand is reckless.
Bizzy

[Neight]

Hi jibguy
Yes I am a survivalist in addition to other things. However I disagree with you 1000% My family will surrvive any desaster whether it is natural, economic, or intentional. To allow you and your family to die needlessly when you could have prepared before hand is reckless.
Bizzy

I couldn't agree more!
Look at history, we ARE heading for some kind of social collapse, it happens fairly regularly when people are involved.
I like to hope for the best, but it's much much smarter to prepare for the worst...

I don't think Capitalism is the problem either, and it will survive, even thrive in bad conditions. It may be black market capitalism, but it will be there...

[Savvypro]

I couldn't agree more!
Look at history, we ARE heading for some kind of social collapse, it happens fairly regularly when people are involved.
I like to hope for the best, but it's much much smarter to prepare for the worst...

I don't think Capitalism is the problem either, and it will survive, even thrive in bad conditions. It may be black market capitalism, but it will be there...

Black markets are the only true free market. You take a look at the definition of a free market and you'll find that no economy even one's called free markets, like the US economy, stock markets etc., are free in reality.

The basic concept of supply/demand and trading value - will never go away.
The problems start when people don't take into account human nature. And wrongly assume that the basic concepts are evil. When the reality is that human nature coupled with artificial scarcity and the ability of governments to with hold and keep secrets - results in all the bad things taking place.

On the issue of Facebook, $100 Billion is a joke. Most of the valuations for a lot of these new tech companies are a joke. You basically have inflation in action, with the stock markets.

Take BT (the main telco monopoly here in the UK), the value of just the copper wires in the ground is about £50 billion (near $100 billion). The company is only valued at about £25 billion pounds and generates a hell of a lot more in profit than Facebook makes in revenue. Yet Facebook will be worth 4 times more, and their business hinges on people using their service, then again wasn’t that the case for myspace and the social network it displaced (friendster?). For an American example try: AT&T, it's revenue (the last time I checked) was $60+ billion a year.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, Hi savvypro, you said; "The basic concept of supply/demand and trading value - will never go away. The problems start when people don't take into account human nature. And wrongly assume that the basic concepts are evil. When the reality is that human nature coupled with artificial scarcity and the ability of governments to with hold and keep secrets - results in all the bad things taking place."

Those are interesting points, though I would say most people do not really know what human nature really is, since as you say, we have been living within artificially created human systems of living that have sought to create the illusion of scarcity and lack and also reinforce this illusion within many of the institutions which exist.
It is my perspective that human beings in general are naturally joyful, loving, sharing and caring beings when conditions are allowing of it.
Words an terms, such as free market, capitalism, etc., etc., remind me of words like good, bad, they have no real meaning to living human beings.

Now words like, sharing freely, convey its meaning perfectly, there is no room for debate or argument upon what sharing means and coupled with freely, it means sharing with no conditions attached.
Words and language have been some of the main tools used to enslave this world, along with the systems that have spawned from words and language.
At the very core of these manipulations, is the attempt to divide and keep humanity separated, so that we will fight and compete with each other and thus are much more easily controlled.
Once you see these strategies and manipulations, you will never be fooled again and will realize when one is harmed directly, all are harmed indirectly.

We are all one family and only sharing freely within true unconditional love will change any of the seeming human problems we see.
Our parents modeled for us, this very example, perhaps many have forgotten as the days have passed in their lives.
peace love light
tyson

[blackchisel97]

Well said

Very well said Tyson .
What I meant in my short reply was the hope of spiritual evolution in human race and escape from distorted 3D world into higher realm. Those terms such as capitalism are artificial and will eventually become obsolete. We were brought up to live and share this place as one. We're natural beings, not social security numbers or bank accounts numbers. Our names should not be written in all capital letters. All systems are artificially created to control and profit. Ability to distinguish between needs and "wants", sharing freely, caring for others regardless of race, status or beliefs and abandoning standards based on possession is our final chance to grow. This system is destined to collapse and the consequences may overwhelm some but I believe that most will advance and unite as one, because that's who we truly are.

Vtech

[dutchdivco]

Open source, no. Human nature, maybe yes

I don't see 'open source' as any threat to 'capitalism', regardless of how you define it. You come up with a 'device', such as jetsys design for turning plastic into diesel. As he did, you 'open source' it on the I-net. One person in 1000, or perhaps 10,000, will actually read the thread. And 1 in 1000 of those that read it, will actually build anything, and 1/2 of those will give up, lose interest, etc.
On the other hand, there is at least one person on his thread, who has taken the information he has shared freely, built on the basic knowledge, and is now offering his services, designing devices for others. And, it appears there is another, who used the info to build units for sale.
As it is right now, anyone can build any patented device, for their own use; the patent only prohibits them from building it to market to others. "Open source' removes that restriction, but, as the examples above indicate, there will always be people who don't have the knowledge and skill, or don't want to apply themselves, and would rather pay somebody ELSE to build it for them. So, I suspect capitalism will work just FINE, with 'open source'.

Human nature, and "Civilisation"; interesting Terms.When archeologists say "Civilisation', they mean when humans ceased to be 'hunter/gatherers', and instead settled in ONE location. Which, although modern man (biologically, at least) has been on this earth for 100,000 years, Civilisation has only existed for 10,000 years! Archeologists find no evidence of war, or massive interspecies killings, prior to civilisation. Studying the few examples we have of 'hunter/gatherer' societies still existing, such as the African Bushman, or the Australian aboriginal, we see societies where the whole structure of the society is based on co-operation, NOT competition. And yet inherent in the nature of so-called 'civilisation', and 'civilised societies' is COMPETITION.

Civilisation will collapse, as it has led us to an unsustainable place. And it is SURVIVALISTS who will live through the collapse, and we will then return to a more sustainable lifestyle, of small 'tribes' of 'hunter/gatherers', with a social structure based on co-operation, not competition.

Hard to imagine; that period of 90,000 years prior to 'civilisation'. Everything we needed to survive, (potable water, food, shelter, clothes, etc) we provided for ourselves; no long supply chain. And, we carried all our possesions WITH us; didn't even have any horses! Although probably had dogs, as hunting partners, 'watch' dogs, etc. Can you imagine reducing all your possesions to what you can carry with you? To KNOWING that everything you and your family/tribe needed to survive, you and your family/tribe would provide for yourselves? And by the by, the 'african bushman do quite well, actually. And, they actually spend much of their day laughing and playing,....together. And sharing in their labors, AND the fruits of their labors.Jim

[boguslaw]

Co-operation ! But also compassion,truth,love ! No need to return to bushmen style of living, just small village self-sustaining with strong foundation in God law and co-operating with others is enough.
Then would be possible only if we start to really solve problems (food,care ,illness,job,teaching,soul advance,true love) - not to create artificial ones to sell something.

[jibbguy]

I can certainly understand the desire to protect ones' family and loved ones. It is actually instinctual. And commendable.

But here's the thing about this: Many of the sort of disasters that are commonly talked about are really not survivable (such as the many different ones we see plastered all over the mainstream popular media, for instance the "History Channel"). As an example, fission nuclear radiation, either from bombs or power plant melt downs, simply cannot be protected from. I recently got an ironic chuckle from a recent news report about an Israeli bunker they built... that can house about 1,500 people (apparently done to make some feel better about beating the drums for war with Iran). So are they going to stay there for... 100 years? 1,000? Because that is what we are looking at.

The likely scenario in such a situation, is that after a year or two the survivors in there will be eating each other. And that is not... "sustainable"... to say the least

The lesson from Fukushima is, that there is little we can personally do to counter the greatly increased chance of getting cancer and other disease that radiation causes over time. They are getting away with it now, only because it takes 5 to 20 years to show up.

Certainly there are lesser disasters. Economic ones causing a super-Great Depression is a possibility. So are more localized ones caused by corporate criminal negligence (such as we have seen happen in the BP Gulf Disaster, and the Fukushima Fission Nuclear Disaster). I would submit to you all, that 50 pound sacks of rice stored in a dry place will do you more good than gold certificates, or even actual coins (which constitute only a small fraction of the so-called "gold" sold on places like "Alex Jones").

And that is my main point i guess: Little we can do alone to stem these disasters. And... a lot we could be doing collectively to AVOID them in the first place.

[dutchdivco]

jibbguy,

Firstly we AREN't doing things, collectively, to avoid these disasters. To talk about what 'could' be done, when there is no realistic reason to believe we will all 'unite, to make it happen', is,....well, naive.
Besides, the 2 approaches are not mutually exclusive; You CAN make preparations for you and yours, for 'in the event of a disaster', while (should you choose) working for 'change'.

I agree rice is preferable to Gold; ammunition, food, water purification, even 'luxury items' are great for bartering. Recall the stories of what Soldiers were able to 'buy' (Hint; You can't BUY Love, but your CAN 'Rent' it by the hour!) with chocolate bars and nylon stockings. When times are tough, with scarcity, a little taste of what things were like, before, is very valuable.

Anyway, while SOME radiation exists for 100's or even 1000's of years, and WILL, over time increase Cancer rates, the immediate threat from 'fallout' is the short lived radiation. And you CAN protect yourself from that, and survive.

I'm not sure I understand your position on 'survival preparedness'. Particularly since, as I said, there is no excusivity; one can work simultaneously for 'change' to AVOID these man-made 'disasters', and at the same time work towards preparations for survival.
Personally, I am sceptical about working for change; I believe this 10,000 year 'experiment' of civilisation is reaching an inevitable conclusion of unsustainability. And, I don't see any worldwide 'awakening' to make the kind of drastic changes we would NEED to make, to avoid what I believe is inevitable.

On the other hand, I don't see any reason NOT to work towards being more self-sufficient, by developing a personal and family plan. The people in disasters who fare the worst, are those that have NO plan, and end up in the "shelter of last resort" (think Astrodome during Catrina), those that are dependent on the Gov't, and on the supply lines of civilisation, are totally LOST when those supply lines are cut.Jim