Bi-toroid Transformer of Thane C. Heins

[Dog-One]

FerroXCube 3R1

With Dave having success with this material, I feel it pertinent to reference it here for others to follow along:

http://www.elnamagnetics.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Ferroxcube-Documents/Square_Loop_Ferrite_Toroids_for_Magnetic_Amplifiers.pdf

I'm assuming these are the ones:
TN36/23/15-3R1 - FERROXCUBE TN36/23/15-3R1 - TOROID | Newark element14 US

Secondaries - 2x 100t 26AWG
Primary - 38t 23AWG

What frequency are you running at?

[DeLorean]

magnetic flux simulation software

Nope, no fourth coil. Only three.

Video explanation: SFT Winding Variations on Vimeo

For these types of transformer windings it might be necessary to turn the formulas for expected electrical behaviour from electrical values parameters to magnetic flux parameters.

why?

using 1 wire for winding around both the black core and the small one and then the same for winding for the small core only will create more than a change in transformer rating. the wire between the black and the small core wil create another kind of influence to the magnetic flux.

looking for a software based on magnetic flux calculations in a multi-core system could be a good idea for that reason.

[Web000x]

With Dave having success with this material, I feel it pertinent to reference it here for others to follow along:

http://www.elnamagnetics.com/wp-content/uploads/library/Ferroxcube-Documents/Square_Loop_Ferrite_Toroids_for_Magnetic_Amplifiers.pdf

I'm assuming these are the ones:
TN36/23/15-3R1 - FERROXCUBE TN36/23/15-3R1 - TOROID | Newark element14 US



What frequency are you running at?

I'm seeing good results at around 80 kHz when the secondaries are wired in series, resonating with a 10 nF series capacitor, and powering a small load such as a 3 volt lamp. This is where I obviously see incandescence coming from the secondary load while also seeing a negative power factor on the scope. The phase shift is obviously greater than 90 degrees. Still waiting on new, identical scope probes to arrive in the mail. But from the battery of tests I threw at these probes, I'm pretty sure what I am seeing is legitimate.

I'm still not sure how to measure my output in my secondaries to the fullest extent possible. I can find the resistive wattage with no problem, but I have a significant amount of heat emanating from my series resonating capacitor. I haven't quite wrapped my head around what I need to do to calculate the conductive losses in the dielectric material in the capacitors. It appears that the heat is actually coming from the dielectric like Dollard has spoken about. If anybody has any ideas, let me know.

I'd love to throw a parallel resonating capacitor on the primary tuned to the frequency that my secondaries resonate at. Ideally, I'd be able to get the oscillations started with a quick make and break power switch sequence and then let the oscillations grow until it burns itself up or falls out of resonance due to total saturation. This system is very dynamic. It is difficult to account for the many variables of varying inductance to get it right on the first try. I'll keep at it. Hopefully we can keep the circuit simple.

As far as your idea about secondary windings turn ratio, I think it is an interesting concept, but can't help but to think that you might be losing efficiency. By skipping turns on the primary toroid, you are effectively lowering your EMF applied to the secondaries. It just seems to me that you would want your primary and secondaries to be as fully connected and fully disconnected as possible, if that makes any sense.

I encourage everybody to pick up some of the 3r1 cores that Dog One referenced in the above quote. They are less than 3 bucks a pop and they do indeed show what appears to be power flowing back to the source. I spent way more on mine than that... This is what I've needed. Something I can study which will show me the way. It's pretty inspiring to see it manifest on your bench.

Good Luck All



Dave

[Web000x]

To any of you that read an excerpt in the previous post about number of secondary turns and lower frequency. I've retracted that statement and omitted it from the post. I'm still not sure of the direction to go on primary to secondary turns ratio.

[BroMikey]

Switchmode too?

Hi DeLorean

When winding coils are crunched in a software program the frequency must be considered. Do you know if this new software goes right up the scale?

It probably does but I can remember a time in the mid 90's that the information availability was all most nil. I remember calling one company asking them to teach me anything about their core rings and how a few turns of wire could be a design implement. They wanted me to sign a NON DISCLOSURE agreement.


Today 20 years later things have changed with everyone on board no problem software programs the works everyone knowing what to expect.

Still I think the schools only teach us what these gov controllers want us to know. The software idea is great thanks, I think a switchmode based one could help until two secondaries are used.

These simulations are very limited especially when we get to the altered flux path densities. I doubt most simulator could handle a problem it has never been designed to do.

Simulators come after a technology has been developed and used in the real world years later. The simulator helps the average Joe Experimenter (Like Me ) to calculate things out in seconds instead of the long hours needed by Engineering Techies.

Mike

For these types of transformer windings it might be necessary to turn the formulas for expected electrical behaviour from electrical values parameters to magnetic flux parameters.

why?

using 1 wire for winding around both the black core and the small one and then the same for winding for the small core only will create more than a change in transformer rating. the wire between the black and the small core wil create another kind of influence to the magnetic flux.

looking for a software based on magnetic flux calculations in a multi-core system could be a good idea for that reason.

[BroMikey]

Lowering frequency

Hey Web000x

I was about to comment on so many demos with no cap values I have come across on Youtube. Great work sharing the complete setup for the average Joe experimenter. What seems to be an insignificant detail to you will keep replicators from success who didn't get the EE training you had.

On the core material. Like Dog-One has posted that he wanted to order a special core design based on calculations at low frequencies was going to run $900 I would like to say that the $3 price tag is much more appealing.

Great first step!! OBVIOUSLY

I think as long as a core material has a good frequency response in the AUDIO range and or above the Joe Experimenter is good go so to speak.

Of course we all know the audio range stops at a little over 20,000 hz.

I think once the Bi-toroid core mass and wire reach a couple of pounds the freq drops way down.

The transformer core material you are using has a range of 400hz-100,000hz
Pretty dern good I'd say. This is the most common core material in the switch-mode industry.

If the experimenter decides later that they need a special core then "tooling costs" shoot up to the tune of 300-500 dollars before your material charges are added in. It is a common core material readily available that all of the companies stock as producers.

It is the shape and size that gets you in the end. Special dies to hold the hydraulically pressed ferrite/metglass dust into with a slight bit of binder.

If you go to Micro metals the whole list of various compounds added to your core is shown, metals such as Aluminum, iron, nickel, cobalt and many more or OXIDES these metals are OXIDIZED in form.

Information on "Bonding of Oxides" through the use of heat and pressure in the presences of chemical etching substances and high temperature binders are well known.

So like Dog-One has stated we better stick with the lower priced smaller cores for now. Yet when I thought about what Bill has done with higher frequencies it shouldn't be hard to get the 1000 watts Dog-One has for a starting goal for a transformer no bigger than a thin sinder block, copper included.

The Cores go up to 4" X 6" and can be added together as we see Bill doing to couple the growing coil area as wattage and size is increased to meet the need.


Also anyone who has a pain in the back side toroidal ring that is 6-8" in diameter can have it cut in half with a tile saw or ceramic cutting saw.

As the size of the core material increases so does the frequency lower. There maybe other factors to lower the operating frequency as well.

Excellent shift to over 90 degrees Dave. On the heating of the capacitor maybe the voltage ceiling of the cap should be higher? I know you are reading lower voltages with your meter. I have tried using 4X higher volt caps sometimes just for kicks to see what happened.

Heating generally relates to over loading, stress with accompanying friction and ultimately heating. I am sure you are aware of these basic facts.


Mike

I'm seeing good results at around 80 kHz when the secondaries are wired in series, resonating with a 10 nF series capacitor, and powering a small load such as a 3 volt lamp. This is where I obviously see incandescence coming from the secondary load while also seeing a negative power factor on the scope. The phase shift is obviously greater than 90 degrees. Still waiting on new, identical scope probes to arrive in the mail. But from the battery of tests I threw at these probes, I'm pretty sure what I am seeing is legitimate.

I'm still not sure how to measure my output in my secondaries to the fullest extent possible. I can find the resistive wattage with no problem, but I have a significant amount of heat emanating from my series resonating capacitor. I haven't quite wrapped my head around what I need to do to calculate the conductive losses in the dielectric material in the capacitors. It appears that the heat is actually coming from the dielectric like Dollard has spoken about. If anybody has any ideas, let me know.

I'd love to throw a parallel resonating capacitor on the primary tuned to the frequency that my secondaries resonate at. Ideally, I'd be able to get the oscillations started with a quick make and break power switch sequence and then let the oscillations grow until it burns itself up or falls out of resonance due to total saturation. This system is very dynamic. It is difficult to account for the many variables of varying inductance to get it right on the first try. I'll keep at it. Hopefully we can keep the circuit simple.

As far as your idea about secondary windings turn ratio, I think it is an interesting concept, but can't help but to think that you might be losing efficiency. By skipping turns on the primary toroid, you are effectively lowering your EMF applied to the secondaries. It just seems to me that you would want your primary and secondaries to be as fully connected and fully disconnected as possible, if that makes any sense.

I encourage everybody to pick up some of the 3r1 cores that Dog One referenced in the above quote. They are less than 3 bucks a pop and they do indeed show what appears to be power flowing back to the source. I spent way more on mine than that... This is what I've needed. Something I can study which will show me the way. It's pretty inspiring to see it manifest on your bench.

Good Luck All



Dave

[BroMikey]

Secondary coil Number One Done

Just wrapped up s 200ft 170 turn secondary CCW but it didn't turn out as pretty as I wanted it to. The spool I made today that went over top of the winder spool is made of HDPE or in my case an empty window washer fluid gallon jug.

That smooth plastic slides around easy so I will get it right off when the glue dries in 2 hours. I will wait til Sunday to make another spool.

I didn't keep up with the turn count but three of my meters read 2.9ohms so it is going to be fun but what I am doing is using a marker on the spools so i know when to stop winding at the edge of the circle.

Winding perfect rows is harder than I thought and will require .001 tolerance precision. Maybe I can make one or buy one for not to much. The poor boys live hand to mouth.

This gives me a single coil dimension of inner dia 4" (4" Sch80 PVC spool base) with the outer 5" Dia X approx 5/8" thick which also corresponds to a 1/2" wide coil.

I wanted to go to 3/4" originally for a 5.5" outer but stopped at my gut feeling. Just ball parking the thing knew it was time to stop.

Mike

[BroMikey]

Mikeys BiTT Build HEHEHE

Hi Everyone

Progress is sweet. Here are my beginning winds. It is 171 turns of 20 Awg

The circumference of the spool is around 14" and 200 feet.

This is gonna Be a JIM Dandy!! I can feel it in my bones. I have wandered for years to find an experiment or two to settle on like John Bedini's Solid state SG OSC and cap dump I did.

Here is one more to make it three devices I have deemed worth the time. I am sure there must be more but some demos don't give clear instruction so i am limited to the ones with a complete parts list.










I wanted you all to see how I ganged up three flyback cores so I cracked it open for you.


Don't know the permeability of flybacks but I am hoping someone can tell me.










More work to be done. With all of the experienced men on this thread anyone should be able to get enough help to build these little BiTT transformers.

Very exciting days to be alive gentlemen.

Mikey

[Dog-One]

Looks pretty good Mike, but I have to say, you have a lot more copper there than you really need to get around those cores.

I just ordered some toroids too, so if I get stuck with my AlphaCores, I can fall back to what Dave has and work forward from there.

A bit curious how Dave is running at 80kHz. Guess he's not using an audio amp. Mine drops off pretty fast once I get above 20kHz. I do have some switching boards that can go much faster, but now we're talking square waves instead of sine waves. Guess that is something else that needs to be explored.

[Web000x]

Looks pretty good Mike, but I have to say, you have a lot more copper there than you really need to get around those cores.

I just ordered some toroids too, so if I get stuck with my AlphaCores, I can fall back to what Dave has and work forward from there.

A bit curious how Dave is running at 80kHz. Guess he's not using an audio amp. Mine drops off pretty fast once I get above 20kHz. I do have some switching boards that can go much faster, but now we're talking square waves instead of sine waves. Guess that is something else that needs to be explored.

I am using an audio amp. Since I'm using a resonating capacitor in the secondaries, the inherent low pass filter in the audio amp doesn't limit power delivery. Once I get close to resonance, the impedance of the primary drops enough to where I can still pump power into it. I start to lose a sine wave after about 100kHz.

Lookin' good, Mike. Hope you make a discovery that simple, available material will also manifest the effect. I've got a sneaking suspicion that only cores with a highly square BH curve will work the best. I've got a method for determining the BH curve of a material using an XY scope function. If anybody is interested, I'll post details.

Dave

[BroMikey]

BH Curves

I am using an audio amp. Since I'm using a resonating capacitor in the secondaries, the inherent low pass filter in the audio amp doesn't limit power delivery. Once I get close to resonance, the impedance of the primary drops enough to where I can still pump power into it. I start to lose a sine wave after about 100kHz.

Lookin' good, Mike. Hope you make a discovery that simple, available material will also manifest the effect. I've got a sneaking suspicion that only cores with a highly square BH curve will work the best. I've got a method for determining the BH curve of a material using an XY scope function. If anybody is interested, I'll post details.

Dave

Hello Dave

Sure put the method out there maybe I'll come up higher in the ranks someday. If you don't post it I can't learn anything now can I?


Saturation (magnetic) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Hello Dog-One

Remember that iron core you bought? Well it is my assumption that any winding using ferrite should display the effect. I may not run my house on it or even top any of you gentlemen but maybe my approach will inspire "Joe Experimenter" Even Joe knows more than I do. I just make it look simple stupid so that it is an offer someone can't refuse.


Yes you are right I could have wound rectangular coils yet extra mass is okay if I can get it tuned.

Mike

[Web000x]

If you have an XY display mode on your scope, you can visually represent the BH curve of your material by using the attached schematic.

@BroMikey,
Regarding my resonating caps heating up, using a higher voltage rating capacitor usually means that the capacitor is relatively bigger than lower voltage caps of the same capacitance value. These bigger caps are still going to dissipate the same amount of heat, assuming similar dielectric materials are used, but it will be more difficult to observe with the human senses since that heat will be dissipated over a larger volume. I like to push the limit of my resonating caps so that when it does start to heat up, I can feel it. It is important to document all sources of heat coming from the secondaries. Just do be careful if following my path because it does become dangerous if you over drive the caps. They will explode. I've seen resonating voltages reach well into 500 volts so don't think you can use just any old cap. Luckily I have quite an assortment that can handle the voltages.

Dave

[BroMikey]

X & Y scope type

Hello Web000x


Yeah I got one of those kind of scopes. The cap measuring idea is new to me so I will keep that one under my hat Between you are me it is good to come up with more ways to monitor resonant circuit operations.

Also I want everyone to know I am going for straight AC out of the wall first. The second primary I wind will be switched in and out in a matter of minutes to run the gamut with an old audio amp.

Of course once it can be verified that AC out of the wall works I will want to run a light on it.


THEN GO FOR BROKE

Mike

If you have an XY display mode on your scope, you can visually represent the BH curve of your material by using the attached schematic.

@BroMikey,
Regarding my resonating caps heating up, using a higher voltage rating capacitor usually means that the capacitor is relatively bigger than lower voltage caps of the same capacitance value. These bigger caps are still going to dissipate the same amount of heat, assuming similar dielectric materials are used, but it will be more difficult to observe with the human senses since that heat will be dissipated over a larger volume. I like to push the limit of my resonating caps so that when it does start to heat up, I can feel it. It is important to document all sources of heat coming from the secondaries. Just do be careful if following my path because it does become dangerous if you over drive the caps. They will explode. I've seen resonating voltages reach well into 500 volts so don't think you can use just any old cap. Luckily I have quite an assortment that can handle the voltages.

Dave

[Dog-One]

Also I want everyone to know I am going for straight AC out of the wall first.

Okay...

If you run the numbers through that formula I posted, I think you'll find the primary cores will saturate; you know what that means? A dead short plugged into the wall.

Please use a fuse.

[wayne.ct]

Safety Warning

Don't be surprised if you trip your circuit breaker. Be careful out there.