Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter "Replications"

[Farmhand]

OK Some of this is what I see on my scope this is the same with my signal
generator pulsing the primary or my circuit. Pleas forgive the waves I drew
them freehand.



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The whole top wave is the transmitter.

The first half is pulsed at full frequency both primary and secondary have the
same period and each wave is exactly the same.

The second half of the top line shows what happens when pulsed at half
frequency,, when the input pulse is missed the wave form starts to get
smaller, but the period still remains the same for both, the frequency of both
does not change. The wave starts to look like a funny kind of M with one
short arch then is put back normal to repeat but the reduction is small for the
input saving.

The first half of the bottom section is what I believe to happen at the
receiver when both coils have the same period, the receiver I think should be
slightly out of phase or even 180 degrees out maybe that changes with load,
I have no way to tell for sure. Because my receiver is wound the same as my
transmitter the polarity would be opposite, but that should not make any
difference the output is AC .

The second half of the bottom section is what I see when the coils have a
different period, the ring-down wave even has the lopsided look to it.
The amount the coils affect each other depends on stuff I have yet to fully
determine. I think coupling factor is one and the primary circuit configuration
is another as far as I can tell.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

P.S. the wave drawings will take a while to make understandable.

P.S. #2 I have a 22 inch computer monitor that doesn't work. Will it have a
HV transformer of some description in it ?

P.S. #3 If the primary and secondary resonating frequencies of the receiver
don't match the output will probably look something like this.

I'll have to go to bed now so I'll take a closer look at all this tomorrow, but I've updated the post above since.

Based on my provisional calculation to get the fundamental wavelength of a wire, your new design coil

160 metres x 1.33 = 212.8kHz

Your circuit you mentioned

170 metres x 1.33 = 225.1kHz = approx 1/2 resonant

Doesn't seem far off [edit #3] Actually it's not kHz at all is it. That's the fundamental wave length

As for the wave drawing, halve the values and wobble your ruler The ruler should form 1/2 of a wave over 2/3 of the ruler's length, so in order to complete a full cycle it would need to be 133cm as in the diagram, or 1.33 times the length.

If the monitor is a CRT then yes, if it's an LCD then no

Thanks for the details, I shall pay more attention after some sleep

[edit] Since 1/2 a wave fits into 2/3 the length of the ruler, divide ruler length by 3 to get 1/3 value. Then add 1/3 value to total length of ruler = one complete wave.

[edited again because I wrote the explanation of the diagram completely wrong. Must get some sleep ]

[Farmhand]

Found this again dR, back at post # 400.

Source Class Notes: Tesla Coils and the Failure of Lumped-Element Circuit Theory

Quote from source.

The magnitude distribution of the spatial interference pattern is
called a standing wave. At all the odd resonant overtones, there is always a
Vmax at the top and a Vmin at the base. The pipe organ, trombone, violin,
harp, guitar, xylophone, ... (even a flag pole) ... are all transmission line
resonators. No wonder Helmholtz and Lord Kelvin were so entranced by Tesla's
wonderful coil: it's a musical instrument whose very soul has been tuned for
creating an electrical fountain of celestial fire. One can write analytical
expressions for all this, of course.

Looks like I've distracted myself back to study.

[Farmhand]

Sorry I'm getting a bit caught up in this now... The 33cm wire would follow the same pattern as the ruler. The most flappiness of the free terminal (loose end of the (now 33cm) ruler) would occur at 1/3 of the wire (11cm) (or 1/4 of the wave) and a virtual 44cm.

Or maybe another way to look at it, the best and most efficient place to grab it and shake it as a physical object dangling in space to make it vibrate with least effort would be at 0 or 2/3 along it.

In other words, if you use a 100cm piece of metal to create a 133cm wave length stimulant to shake a 1/4 wave resonant 33cm wire, the 33cm wire will be stimulated at every peak of the stimulant, but in itself will want to freely vibrate at a wave length of 44cm. Via the same observation and formula that allowed us to determine the 1/4 wave length wire in the first place.

Does this even make any sense?

Yes it does kinda make sense to me, and it will help immensely if we can get a
mutual understanding of what each other is saying. The thing is though the
wire length will not determine the resonant frequency the L/C ratio of the coil
does. I could use two pieces of wire the same and wind two different coils
with different resonant frequencies with no added capacitors. As can be seen
by the coil "A" and coil "B" in my new design, the coils separate will have a
different resonant frequency because they are wound differently.



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So it goes like this for me. The electrical disturbance in my circuit is 681 meters (440 Khz)
so the secondary wire length is approximately 170 meters. And the primary when pulsed
at 440 Khz makes the secondary resonate 1/4 lambada 440 Khz.

This works out for me but because of the way the secondaries are wound
there is more wire than 170 meters, that is not important he says
approximately 1/4 the length of the disturbance, it depends.

However if the primary is "made" also resonant 1/4 lambada at 440 Khz it can
be pulsed at lower harmonics or fractions of the resonant frequency and the
secondary and the primary will still resonate at 440 Khz and produce a
continuous or undamped wave.

If the primary is not made resonant at the same frequency as the secondary
it won't want to naturally resonate with the secondary when pulsed at
fractions of the resonant frequency, I don't think.

In my opinion the receiver output coil "C" must be made resonant regardless
of the transmitter primary pulsing frequency so that it naturally resonates
along with the Coils "A" and "B" combined of the receiver or the thick wire coil
must be made to resonate with the thin wire coil to put it anther way. And
the receiver secondary must be made to resonate at the same frequency as
the transmitter. But if the transmitter and receiver are too close to each
other capacitive coupling will try to force the transmitter vibrations directly on
the receiver, this will affect the performance I think because I think the
receiver should be out of phase with the transmitter.

I'm going to make some drawings to try to understand better what you
mean and show better what I mean. The drawings may be wrong and might
be embarressing to me but I'll take that.

Cheers

P.S. the wave drawings will take a while to make understandable.

P.S. #2 I have a 22 inch computer monitor that doesn't work. Will it have a
HV transformer of some description in it ?

P.S. #3 If the primary and secondary resonating frequencies of the receiver
don't match the output will probably look something like this.



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Rather than like this, because the receiver thin wire coil is impressing its
frequency on the thick wire coil to produce the output wave.
Not exactly certain of that though I will need to scope the output and I don't
like to do that.



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..

..

[dR-Green]

This is what I'm talking about, with half the input pulses of the resonant
frequency (of the secondary) I am able to get a nice sine wave at the resonant frequency. With
1/4 and 1/3 the input pulses of the resonant frequency (of the secondary) the sine wave is not so
nice but it is still what I would call an undamped wave.

I see, interesting how that works out

[dR-Green]

Sorry I'm getting a bit caught up in this now... The 33cm wire would follow the same pattern as the ruler. The most flappiness of the free terminal (loose end of the (now 33cm) ruler) would occur at 1/3 of the wire (11cm) or at 33cm.

Or maybe another way to look at it, the best and most efficient place to grab it and shake it as a physical object dangling in space to make it vibrate with least effort would be at 0 or 2/3 along it.

In other words, if you use a 100cm piece of metal to create a 133cm wave length stimulant to shake a 1/4 wave resonant 33cm wire, the 33cm wire will be stimulated at every peak of the stimulant, but in itself will want to freely vibrate at a wave length of 44cm. Via the same observation and formula that allowed us to determine the 1/4 wave length wire in the first place.

Does this even make any sense?

Fundamental wavelength of wire = wire length x 1.33(3333........)

I think.

[Farmhand]

Ok found it.

with very few fundamental impulses, a perfectly continuous wave. That came with the perfection of the devices. When I came to my experiments in Colorado, I could take my apparatus like that and get a continuous or undamped wave, almost without exception, between individual discharges

This is what I'm talking about, with half the input pulses of the resonant
frequency (of the secondary) I am able to get a nice sine wave at the resonant frequency. With
1/4 and 1/3 the input pulses of the resonant frequency (of the secondary) the sine wave is not so
nice but it is still what I would call an undamped wave.

If the primary is not resonant at the resonant frequency (of the secondary) or a multiple of it I
don't think using the harmonics will work so well because the primary
harmonics will probably not coincide with the secondary harmonics.
My LV setup has so many ways to adjust it this is no problem for me.

If this is done and an external influence reinforces the resonance it could
increase or help to maintain the wave energy. Maybe. Give it a tap and let it
ring like a bell.

Then because the receiver Coil "C is resonant (with it's secondary) with the added cap. The output will
be very good as opposed to the receiver coil "C" not being resonant. My
testing proved this as obvious.

Cheers

P.S. This is also how the extra high voltages at the receiver Coil "C" is possible.

..

[Farmhand]

I think the online Telsa coil calculators work that out for us. The OLTC one
even tells us the primary cap value for the primary and the power input and
stuff but it won't do composite coils.

I think if the primary is pulsed at every cycle of the resonant frequency of the
secondary the primary resonance won't matter much, the frequency is forced on the
primary and therefore the secondary, but if the primary tank capacitor added
to the inductance of the primary gives a resonant frequency the same as the
secondary then that can help I think. That's what I did with the LV setup and
it worked very well when pulsed at the resonant frequency. For the
LV setup this was a 10 nf cap this same cap is placed across the receiver
primary.

However if I placed the 10 nF cap across the transmitter primary and used a
50 nF cap for the tank cap although it worked the same when pulsed at the
actual resonant frequency (tuned by oscilloscope), it also worked much better
when pulsed at the harmonics particularly 1/4 and 1/3 I think 111 Khz and 148 Khz
with different effect. I can draw the two different arrangements I used if you like.

The small motor experiment was done while pulsing the transmitter at 1/4 (correction 1/2 ) the
resonant frequency and the motor worked quite well with a very small input to
the transmitter. I don't need to deconstruct the LV coils so I can set them up
and test stuff with them or use them for cheap light.


Cheers

[dR-Green]

What does it mean ? Must mean something everything means something.

If you were to apply a stimulant of 133cm wave length (= 225MHz), the ideal length of wire to be excited to the peak of the source would be 33cm. Any longer and the excitement diminishes, until you get up to 66cm or 100cm.

A wire of this 33cm length would correspond to 1/4 of the wave length of the electrical disturbance moving through it.

Since we will be needing to keep the peaks below [edit] I mean AT... terminal D, 33cm of wire would be required, and not 66cm or 100cm otherwise the peak and ball of flame will occur at 1/2 or 1/3 into the coil.

So hypothetically 225MHz through the primary, of what length, with a 33cm secondary?

[Farmhand]

Yeah good point. Also as far as I'm aware Tesla used the tiniest gap possible. I'm guessing the coils did the job of increasing the voltage themselves rather than having a bigger gap and higher voltage input that way.

Tesla used 44 000 volts input to his Transmitter like he says here,

Source Nikola Tesla On His Work With Alternating Currents -- Chapter IV about halfway down.

It's all a balance, altering the frequency of the discharges can be done
different ways. The best way is probably a rotary gap or mechanical
interrupter for higher input voltages with stable levels, if the 44 000 volts in
the condensers is stable and doesn't drop then a static gap of 1mm wont be
much good I don't think, but a rotary gap or other mechanical interrupter
could be with 1 mm.

I think the best way is to have the transformers easily keep the caps charged
full and either use a mechanical interrupter gap run at the desired frequency or adjust
the static gap width to get the desired frequency with quenching.

Using a spongy supply or lower voltage supply or adjustable voltage supply
the caps take longer to charge and drop more voltage so that makes a narrow
static gap more easily workable, in my opinion. There really shouldn't be any
hiccups or misfires but that is not important to me at the moment, though I
am mindful of it.

I am thinking of 10 000 volts input to my primary.

I think Tesla adjusted his Break rate to get one break per cycle of the desired
frequency. ie 20 Khz - 20 000 breaks per second. That would be difficult to
achieve with a 1mm static spark gap and a solid 44 000 volts in the primary
capacitors. I think there would be problems associated with that.

The only reason I widen the gap to get higher input voltage is because my
supply cannot sustain a higher voltage with a smaller gap (higher frequencies) and I do it for
experimentation to observe the discharges, Tesla describes a similar way he
used to get intermittent discharges from his disruptive discharge coil on page
204 IRWNT The inventions, researches and writings of Nikola Tesla, with special reference to his work in polyphase currents and high potential lighting : Martin, Thomas Commerford, 1856-1924 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

Each time the arc is broken between A and B the jars are
quickly charged and discharged through the primary p p, producing
a snapping spark between the knobs K K. Upon the arc
forming between A and B the potential falls, and the jars cannot
be charged to such high potential as to break through the air
gap a ~b until the arc is again broken by the draught.
In this manner sudden impulses, at long intervals, are produced
in the primary p p, which in the secondary s give a corresponding
number of impulses of great intensity. If the secondary
knobs or spheres, K K, are of the proper size, the sparks
show much resemblance to those of a Holtz machine.

I can run the gap much faster but the frequency being higher makes the
discharges smaller (non existent with good terminals) and I can get good
power from the receiver, but I don't have a properly adjustable gap yet that
can be adjusted while the circuit is running and so I experiment in other ways.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Sometimes it's good to let yourself be distracted by your own self
Not sure if that'll make sense.

Go with it see what happens. I do it all the time. At least then
if nothing comes from it I have only myself to blame, sometimes the
distraction can turn out to be very important, or fun at least.

You might notice in the video I rewound the primaries on my small coils so
now the primaries are three 1 mm strands in parallel and three turns, I think
the primary would weigh less than the secondary coil "A" the coupling coil,
I'm going to work out exactly how much the "A" coils weigh and compare it to
the primaries to see how close or far off I am. It makes sense to
have the same amount of wire I guess. Sure can't hurt.

So to be a tiny bit scientific, when I find out the weight of the coil "A" I'll wind a couple
of extra primaries with that weight of wire and see the difference
(I have extra primary formers), there will be other factors to take into
consideration of course but if there is a big difference I'll know.

I should be able to use the workshop this week, so I hope to do some stuff. I was
thinking I might be able to wrap and glue some cork or balsa wood onto a
90mm PVC tube to get a 100 mm "wooden former" One problem could be that
wood will absorb moisture and hold it internally for a fair while. Most things do
even PVC a tiny bit I think. Anyway something to think about. I'll need to seal it I guess.

Cheers

[dR-Green]

At resonance, so it seems, you need to add 1/3 of the length of the object in vibration to the object in order to fit a complete wave onto it at the fundamental frequency. Although if you physically did that then the point of least wobble would be at 2/3rd of the new length

This is with the end free to vibrate which I think is an important point. If you try to fix the other end and force a different frequency it's difficult to keep it going and the end always wants to move from the fixed point. So it looks like a 100cm length of metal most happily freely vibrates at 133cm wavelength.

The more I think about it the more careful I think I should be about using the terms "frequency" and "wavelength" That should say

If you try to fix the other end and force a different wave length it's difficult to keep it going and the end always wants to move from the fixed point. So it looks like a 100cm length of metal most happily freely vibrates at 133cm wavelength.

[dR-Green]

I'll have a think about it, but this is what it means in practical or physical/visual terms. Excuse the wave, MS paint isn't equipped to easily make perfect sine waves



At resonance, so it seems, you need to add 1/3 of the length of the object in vibration to the object in order to fit a complete wave onto it at the fundamental frequency. Although if you physically did that then the point of least wobble would be at 2/3rd of the new length

This is with the end free to vibrate which I think is an important point. If you try to fix the other end and force a different frequency it's difficult to keep it going and the end always wants to move from the fixed point. So it looks like a 100cm length of metal most happily freely vibrates at 133cm wavelength.

Oh yeah I made a couple of posts in this thread some pretty pictures and a
video. I've worked out the manual controls on my DSLR camera. I gave myself
a camera qualification certificate so now i'm qualified.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8719-hf-hv-phenomena-observations.html

Cheers

The pics look nice I'll check the video out now. I'm also in the middle of devising an "extra coil" for the spirals, which is why I grabbed the metre stick in the first place. I got a bit distracted

[Farmhand]

If you wobble a metre ruler holding it at the 100cm end, the point of least wobble is between 25cm and 33cm.

OK I don't have a 1 meter ruler but when I wobble a 50 cm ruler the point of
least wobble is around the 16 cm mark. Seems to concur with you're result.

What does it mean ? Must mean something everything means something.

Oh yeah I made a couple of posts in this thread some pretty pictures and a
video. I've worked out the manual controls on my DSLR camera. I gave myself
a camera qualification certificate so now i'm qualified.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8719-hf-hv-phenomena-observations.html

Cheers

[dR-Green]

If you wobble a metre ruler holding it at the 100cm end, the point of least wobble is between 25cm and 33cm.