Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, Hi slider, thanks for sharing your latest experiments with that coil setup, will be trying that in the near future.
Also, slider, it's funny since I know you are into rc flight, I was searching for a homemade flying wing to build and noticed your post in rc groups. I'm going to build the divinity 2 foam wing electric plane, hehe.
peace love light
tyson

[Steve220]

Strange coil

Thanks slider. This is so strange, I am starting to think that there is something special going on with internal coil shorting. I have been thinking about this and maybe the parallel wiring inside the coil, shorted back on its self is key.

Current flowing two different directions in parallel wires, tend to cancel the magnetic field out in the two wires, but there is still a small magnetic field present. If that small magnetic field in the two parallel wires, in a coil, I think, would still build up a magnetic field in a core.

But since the coil wires are shorted back through the coil, the magnetic field in the core might become self reinforcing as there is really no where for the induced current in the wires from the core, or the built up magnetic field in the core induced back into the wires to go.

Kind of a ping pong effect, at least until wire resistance sets in and stop the effect or the ping pong effect builds to the point to overcome the wire resistance, creating, heat , I would guess.

So some internal magnetic confusion sets in as to what to do and the result is a strong magnetic field builds up in the core, once the process is started by an external magnetic field applied to the core of the coil.

This does sound odd to me, but there is only wire, a bobbin, and a core to work with. So whatever is going on in the coil, only has these parts to work with.

It does not leave much choice, so if this is not it, I am at a loss to explain it, at this point in time any way as this strange effect was never discussed in the electronics school that I went to a loooong time ago.

Steve

[Slider2732]

Thanks Steve

On the previous page, Toranarod has pics of several coil types...that got me thinking.
I took an ex PC monitor circuit board and lo and behold, found a tall coil choke (approx 1" in height), similar to the one on the right of his pic. But this was multi-wire Litz type wound !
I've wondered for a couple of days what would happen if the same number of wires were on all connections, rather than 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. The coil had 10 wires !
So, 5 and 5 it was. Continuity tested same as the previous 2 coils and wired it up the same way too.
It is STRONG.
This is before any thoughts of rewiring to Bruce's idea on OU forum.
I powered up to 12V and brought it near to the rotor to look at where it wanted to run best and a neo unglued it self and stuck to the front, thwack !!!
Without a magnet on the back, the rotor will spin up from what must be an inch away - a long way for any coil with a small surface area to aim at.
The resonance oscillation stuff when held in the hand is amazing....a lot more than the other 2 coils.
It may be a Lenz nightmare, a current hog and take some serious neo fitting to the back to cancel some effects, but this thing was a shock to discover that it runs a rotor so well.

Main thing - if you're taking the neck stuff off a monitor anyway, check the main circuit board for a hidden potentially excellent freebie. They're mostly done for you. All windings are already on the core, adjustable ferrite is in the middle too.

Update - With probes across the coil inputs, the readings are surely too low ?
27ma at 12v, 8mA at 3V
Feels like it drags about an amp the way the thing vibrates.

[Steve220]

Slider

"I can confirm that the any voltage same speed running also works on the first coil I wound. It should be the same for other folks coils. One of the cool things is that you can strongly feel the most effective position for setting up when the coil is stationary. Moving the rotor by hand, you can feel the hum decrease and increase as the coil oscillates."

This has got be really interesting information.
I think this is an important discovery. Thanks, Steve

Sorry to hear about your kitten.

[Slider2732]

Thanks ewizard. Children and animals have no say in the lives they lead. People without much materially, can give their all to make young lives as happy as possible....especially because illness can take away forever what is held as most precious.

Time to catch up at OU, thanks for pointing that out. It's not like that monitor wire is going to run out anytime soon either, so i'm intrigued regarding Bruce's ideas

I can confirm that the any voltage same speed running also works on the first coil I wound. It should be the same for other folks coils. One of the cool things is that you can strongly feel the most effective position for setting up when the coil is stationary. Moving the rotor by hand, you can feel the hum decrease and increase as the coil oscillates.

[ewizard]

So sorry to hear about the kittens. They are my favorite beings. Take a look at page 259 and 260 at overunity.com as there is some very relevant info from several people and Bruce_TPU mentioned some things related to what you are doing here and tanakat posted a link for a recent Thane Heins video that really brought some things into focus for me regarding winding these coils. Bruce had a suggested wiring setup that I may try (close to what has been suggested here but maybe even a little better). Bottom line on what I had reinforced in my mind is that Lenz can be greatly lessened by getting higher voltage and lower current on the coil sets which is accomplished by using Litz wire in a special wiring on the ends as you have done and it may be even taken a bit further in that direction with further changes toward series wiring (trifilar or miltifilar).

[Slider2732]

Here's the video of tests today.
It shows powering from 12V down to 3V with no rotor speed change, back up to 12V, wherever and nothing about the speed changes.
Also, introducing the other coil to the spinning rotor, getting right up to the rotor and still no speed change

YouTube - ‪Romero coil, solid rotor speed 3V-12V, anywhere !‬‏

[Slider2732]

Thanks for your kind words. She was born premature, legs first, her twin was lost the day before as a miscarriage and she always struggled for the 2 months of life she had. We did spoil her though and at least now she is in no pain.

In the case of my test unit, my coils are behemoths compared to the magnet size. But, yeah, in terms of affecting that Bloch wall area, the magnet strength may be what does it, rather than rotor size or indeed magnet surface area. How far the push is within the coil.

Further observations here (video later I hope).
Adding the original coil as a second one, doesn't alter the rotor speed one bit, even down at 3V. I can literally bring the other coil right next to the rotor and nothing adverse or any slowdown is noted. Not that I can detect any voltage from it though
The rotor turns at the same speed no matter what voltage, when no load is applied.
The rotor definitely turns quicker than a regular single wind relay coil would ever do at 3V. So, starting at 12V, shorting to bring the speed up, load put on at 12V, the system could regulate down to 3V and still run the show...and itself. In so doing, the amp draw would follow the figures above and it would draw a minimal amount, low enough to self run.
That's my working theory.

[toranarod]

Hello to all.

Very sorry Slider to hear about your cat.
I too have a cat that spends many days with me on the bench watching my experiments
and making a fuss just when I need him to be quite. I would be equally as devastated if he was to come to grief.

I have not been able to get the great speed increase that slider did.
How every I will put a few days into this and check out the coil configuration when something interesting come along its always worth the effort.

What I have been pondering with regard to acceleration under load. Is there a very distinct ratio of coil face area in regards to magnet face area?

Robert Adams research suggests there is a point in the middle of the magnetic field that has a small amount of opposite poll.

The ferrite slugs in the TV coils are small in diameter and the magnets are lager. That seems to be what the observation of the successful demonstrations show.

I am going to wind some coils with small cores and lager magnets.. Romero also had them very close. with very little gap between coil and magnet. For now I will stay with litz wire it gives some versatility with regards to henrys..

See photo below.

the other question about the Cap. It needs to be the right value or it will not light the globe. My cap is 600 volt non polarized 1.5 uF. and it does not slow the motor. it lights the globe and gives a slight speed increase.

[Slider2732]

Back to work...

I'm trialling the second, slightly larger coil on the original rotor assembly as the last video.
It now has a washer and small neo on the back, but is spaced as yet a little further away from the rotor than the other was.
It will only start at 12V and has to be flicked to do so. When it does start, it goes around at a fair clip, quite similar to the speed of the other one when the neon was across it.

HOWEVER - once started, the voltage from the wall adapter can be switched right down to 3V and it runs at exactly the same speed !
The wall adapter has an FWBR and a 25V 2000uF cap across, to smooth out the supply and to give a more realistic reading that tallys with how it reads on the adapter settings.
Unloaded current readings are:
20mA @ 3V
27mA at 4.5V
35mA at 6V
and incrementally up to 12V

[Slider2732]

@ toranarod and
That setup of yours looks fantastic !
Your further results with real equipment are eagerly awaited. Such simple circuits might enable a full 12V house, a personal goal, so certainly worth taking the results in different directions.
i do like that DC/DC converter thought from such a random original load test.

@zooty - yep indeed, same coil for powering and energy collection
The bulb is completely stock, have used it in many Tesla tower experiments.

@ewizard and ZeroMassInertia - the self oscillating because of the connections rings true, pardon the pun. Lesser power requirements might extend into the whole Muller machine and why tuning to load becomes so important. To me, it's not the fastest speed that seems important, but the oscillating conditions. As perhaps noted by toranarod, different loads will now do different things at different voltages and rotor speeds.

The neon in my demo vid was full brightness and yep both sides lit, something that hasn't been achieved within the best of own wireless power experiments. AC seems to supply to the load requirement whenever derived from pulsing.
AC can run an LED and a neon parallel and the both will be on - I need to check for a very slight wireless energy field on these coils...it's a niggle thought that such a field would be evident within Tesla's work in coil design. An aetheric buffer if you will.
When over supply would occur, instead we have an excess ringing in the coil, the extra energy having to go somewhere.
Thoughts there are that all coils collect, only a couple need to power. In the powering down time, at the 'off' condition when the Hall sensor is triggered, additional energy collection may ring around the series connected total of coils. A push of ringing condition which may well relate to lasersaber's fantastic demo's. Being able to power and collect in the same coil hopefully bearing fruit in the full on replications.
Heck, no need for half baked theories from me though.

My own work is going to be curtailed somewhat. We just lost our kitten 'Yoda' to a worm infection this morning. The cat in the video I posted was the mother, she was agitated even then. Please do excuse errors in thought, grammar and whatever.

[Zooty]

toranarod, Thanks for doing a much better and clearer job on drawing up Slider's coil wiring. I wouldn't get too excited though about lighting a CFL. We saw what little power it takes to light one with lasersaber's JouleRinger. All it takes is micro power at higher frequency to agitate those phosphors

This would be true if he was running the filament direct but i believe he is connecting it with its original circuit intact so i am guessing there is at least 110vac coming out of that coil with enough current to produce 10 maybe 15 watts. What you are talking about is very high transient voltage spikes via pulsing.

[ZeroMassInertia]

IMHO one explanation for the strange workings for Slider2732 latest motor could be that the coil arrangement is self oscillating, a Hartley oscillator uses a tap on the coil for feedback. This is similar to the stranded bundles in Slider2732 coil. When the rotor is not turning the neon bulb appears to have a glow around both electrodes. This is an indication of AC. When a motor is being driven by AC its rpm will be a function of the frequency of input power and the number of poles in rotor and stator.
When the Chinese CurlyQue Fry bulb is put into the circuit it, somehow filters out the AC, at that point the original pulse drive takes the rotor to a higher speed.

[ewizard]

Note how the Henry's triple.

maybe this is a way to create free electric light.. Not so much OU
but a really cheap way to light your house. My first measurements
suggest the current from the supply drops every time you add a globe.
the motor runs fast when you attach a globe. at this point not much but that's better than slower.

toranarod, Thanks for doing a much better and clearer job on drawing up Slider's coil wiring. I wouldn't get too excited though about lighting a CFL. We saw what little power it takes to light one with lasersaber's JouleRinger. All it takes is micro power at higher frequency to agitate those phosphors

For Steve220 I saw someone on another forum that said they did not have as good of results with some multistrand wire that was untwisted as in just parallel. So not sure about the wire you mention but if someone has the extra $ anything is worth trying to narrow the search in this.

[ewizard]

Your diagram looks correct.
Thanks for drawing that too !

Ahh, much better than the one I drew but same thing I believe. Good to have confirmation. At some point I'll give it a try too.