Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[gyula]

My test motor speeds up under load , I used a microwave fan coil for the generator, paralleled with an ac cap, then to a FW rectifier made of 3 Schottky barrier diodes (from computer PSU`s SBL3040). Thanks Toranarod for the schottky diode info.
The speedup effect is (for me) is more dramatic with a 3uF ac cap paralleled to the coil.
input power 5v 27mA, loads the motor considerably with the coil in place and the rpm is 670 with no load, with a 4w load it increases to 1420rpm. Output is 6.1v 2.6mA

Better output power however is with a 0.94uF cap using 8v 32mA,
no load rpm 2844, 4w load = 2976rpm. Output voltage is 6.8v 6mA.

I havent put the scope on the gen coil yet but will tonight. The rpm is measured with a reed switch to parallel port so i might miss a few pulses here and there but the speedup is an audibly significant indication , PSU is a HP 6632A lab supply and output measured with HP 34401A for amps and a fluke75 for volts, so again approximation with digital meters.
The rotor is 120mm diameter fixed with 8 13x6mm rectangular magnets, dual reeds in series supply a 400t sewing bobbin coil (single strand) with a pulse, the core is a 6x30mm ferrite. simple stuff .
Cheers
Jim

Hi Jim,

Yes, try to show the voltage waveform across the gen coil, the more we see such under known parameters, the better.

Wonder if you capture the spike energy the collapsing field induces back in the drive coil when you switch it off.
A fan motor used in microwave ovens normally has a rather high value DC resistance, this can be a drawback for a gen coil, though probably good for the rotor speed up demo.

Thanks, Gyula

[toranarod]

Sounds like you have been busy. Good idea. 120 mph wouldn't be pretty in the face!

I'm glad it works and that you told us about it. Did you set the magnets into the edge of the rotor or just screw them onto the edge itself?

YAY! good luck with the full generator!


Oh hey thanks for linking to that speech!

I will post a few photos
Its a Adams, Bedini Type motor. Rotor Dia 245 mm at 4600 RPM using 18 mm disc magnets
Hope you are well shades. your work is really moving ahead

good luck

[Shadesz]

Good work
I have been busy building a new rotor for hi speed I needed to use ring magnets and bolt them down.
. I don't like the steel bolt in the middle of the magnetic field but that's better than getting hit in the face with a magnet travailing at 120 Mph.

seem to work very happy about that

I will now build a bigger one

I calculated I need a surface speed Of 198 KMH to avoid lenz

I am building a full motor with all 9 cols and 8 magnet We will see if it can get close to COP

Sounds like you have been busy. Good idea. 120 mph wouldn't be pretty in the face!

I'm glad it works and that you told us about it. Did you set the magnets into the edge of the rotor or just screw them onto the edge itself?

YAY! good luck with the full generator!


Oh hey thanks for linking to that speech!

[toranarod]

Today a hurried and ran a chart comparing magnet width to height ratios. I recorded the gauss calculation at 1/4" above the magnet face for every instance. In this study I was trying to determine the best width to height ratio so we can save both money, and rotor space.

Example: Say you need to reach a certain gauss for your coil. You could use either a wide and flat magnet or a skinny and tall magnet. Which one would be better? Well if we are trying to minimize the magnet bypass time obviously the skinny magnet is what you would want. But then how tall does it have to be? That is what this information will help you decide.

For the data I picked a constant magnet width (.5 inches for one line and 1.0 inches for the second line). I then decided to start with a magnet height of 1/4th the width. I recorded the gauss for this magnet at 1/4th inch above the magnet face. I then added another fourth to the height and recorded the gauss. And again, another 1/4th of the width added to the height and recorded.

Thus the measurements go like this...
Width x Height
.5 x .125
.5 x .25
.5 x .375
etc.

I plotted the results on the chart below. The X axis represents the height of the magnet as a ratio of the magnet width. You will notice that both the .5" and the 1" magnets had a similar line. According to both of the data lines your best use of money and rotor space is achieved when your magnet height is 2 times larger than the magnet width. This should help you save money and maximize the change in flux in a given rotor size.



I did this to help me decide the most effective magnets to buy but I thought you may want to know it as well.

Edit: I used this calculator to generate these numbers.

Good work
I have been busy building a new rotor for hi speed I needed to use ring magnets and bolt them down.
. I don't like the steel bolt in the middle of the magnetic field but that's better than getting hit in the face with a magnet travailing at 120 Mph.

seem to work very happy about that

I will now build a bigger one

I calculated I need a surface speed Of 198 KMH to avoid lenz

I am building a full motor with all 9 cols and 8 magnet We will see if it can get close to COP

[qvision]

That's really handy thanks Shadesz

[Shadesz]

What magnet height vs width ratio should we use?

Today a hurried and ran a chart comparing magnet width to height ratios. I recorded the gauss calculation at 1/4" above the magnet face for every instance. In this study I was trying to determine the best width to height ratio so we can save both money, and rotor space.

Example: Say you need to reach a certain gauss for your coil. You could use either a wide and flat magnet or a skinny and tall magnet. Which one would be better? Well if we are trying to minimize the magnet bypass time obviously the skinny magnet is what you would want. But then how tall does it have to be? That is what this information will help you decide.

For the data I picked a constant magnet width (.5 inches for one line and 1.0 inches for the second line). I then decided to start with a magnet height of 1/4th the width. I recorded the gauss for this magnet at 1/4th inch above the magnet face. I then added another fourth to the height and recorded the gauss. And again, another 1/4th of the width added to the height and recorded.

Thus the measurements go like this...
Width x Height
.5 x .125
.5 x .25
.5 x .375
etc.

I plotted the results on the chart below. The X axis represents the height of the magnet as a ratio of the magnet width. You will notice that both the .5" and the 1" magnets had a similar line. According to both of the data lines your best use of money and rotor space is achieved when your magnet height is 2 times larger than the magnet width. This should help you save money and maximize the change in flux in a given rotor size.



I did this to help me decide the most effective magnets to buy but I thought you may want to know it as well.

Edit: I used this calculator to generate these numbers.

[Shadesz]

I have some powdered graphite (flakes) on hand. It is interesting. It appears slightly magnetic (or slightly anti-magnetic). I sprinkled some on a piece of paper and put a .5" neo underneath. It stood the flakes on end but didn't move them at all.

[eternalightwithin]

I'd try the flaked graphite.

McMaster-Carr

Future Applications of Graphene - YouTube

Graphene

This is what we need to be making coils from.
it will have far better conducting ability than Copper. All most a supper conductor.

Now how do we get it?

[MonsieurM]

@ electron, nice one

@ Rod, where does everyone get their Graphene ? Why, at the Graphene Supermarket of course !

https://graphene-supermarket.com/

Of Course, Graphene Supermarket......Thank you qvision

awesome link ...worth to share in other posts

[qvision]

@ electron, nice one

@ Rod, where does everyone get their Graphene ? Why, at the Graphene Supermarket of course !

https://graphene-supermarket.com/

[electr0n]

Speed up under load

My test motor speeds up under load , I used a microwave fan coil for the generator, paralleled with an ac cap, then to a FW rectifier made of 3 Schottky barrier diodes (from computer PSU`s SBL3040). Thanks Toranarod for the schottky diode info.
The speedup effect is (for me) is more dramatic with a 3uF ac cap paralleled to the coil.
input power 5v 27mA, loads the motor considerably with the coil in place and the rpm is 670 with no load, with a 4w load it increases to 1420rpm. Output is 6.1v 2.6mA

Better output power however is with a 0.94uF cap using 8v 32mA,
no load rpm 2844, 4w load = 2976rpm. Output voltage is 6.8v 6mA.

I havent put the scope on the gen coil yet but will tonight. The rpm is measured with a reed switch to parallel port so i might miss a few pulses here and there but the speedup is an audibly significant indication , PSU is a HP 6632A lab supply and output measured with HP 34401A for amps and a fluke75 for volts, so again approximation with digital meters.
The rotor is 120mm diameter fixed with 8 13x6mm rectangular magnets, dual reeds in series supply a 400t sewing bobbin coil (single strand) with a pulse, the core is a 6x30mm ferrite. simple stuff .
Cheers
Jim

[toranarod]

Graphene

Future Applications of Graphene - YouTube

Graphene

This is what we need to be making coils from.
it will have far better conducting ability than Copper. All most a supper conductor.

Now how do we get it?

[wattsup]

@all

Has anyone every tried just winding a thicker wire coil over an active generator coil and shorting it or using it in other ways. Maye this would steer the drag away from the core and gen coils.

The same "over coil" could be used on a drive coil and connected to the drive coil via a diode to capture and use the flyback. Maybe the drive coil with over coil could provide a 1-2 punch.

But don't try this before you do some basic coil wind direction and polarity tests since your coils are all so ingeniously glued to their plate, you cannot make a mistake in coil wind side and direction.

I'd say 5-6 turns of #10. That would be easy to unwind and re-wind the other way should your polarities require it.

Just thinking out loud.

wattsup

[Shadesz]

I've come up with another thought about matching the time constant.

As we know the L/R of the coil is to be matched with the speed of the magnet passing by. So actually there are 2 time variables: coil time constant and magnet passing time. We have observed that if magnet passing time (hence inverse RPM) is less than coil time constant, Lenz can be neutralized. There are two ways we can go about by doing this: One is to increase L/R and the other is RPM. Coil L/R is limited because of design, for example, a typical 10mH 2 Ohm is certain size for the rotor and we can't improve it much without increasing its size.

What I'd like to emphasize on is the magnet passing time. This time variable only applies when the coil is loaded and the time count begins when current start to increase. We have the ability to control this parameter by loading the coil only at certain point for a certain duration.

I've drawn up 3 different time variables scenarios for a certain RPM. The biggest time cover the whole waveform equivalent to continuous shorting. The two smaller time is base on when we choose to load the coil and for how long, so for certain RPM we can match any L/R time constant. In theory, we can neutralized Lenz even with speed of a few RPM by shorting it at top dead center.

Again, Interesting idea.

This would allow us a better control over lenz tricking, although it would be at the expense of energy creation. Still though, it may give us better control especially as we test these generators. My mind will have to think on this a little more.

[Shadesz]

It's all the coils mounted around the fixed plate on both sides of the plates, one side for the motor, other side for the generator.
the rotor has an outer set of magnets for the motor on the longer arm so to speak, and an inner circle of magnets on the shorter arm so to speak. If you mix the coils uses on each side of the mount you can change the timing by shifting the inner part of the rotor radially causing a shift in phase? This also gives a difference in RPM's/ speed ratio between different coils if set up to do .so

Interesting idea. I'm not sure I grasp your idea completely so if I don't please continue to elaborate. Mechanics are hard to convey in text and 2d image format.

Essentially are you suggesting spinning the magnets in one direction and the coils in the opposite direction? That's a great idea!! It is more mechanical in nature, and will be difficult for testing stages, but once this generator is fully understood you could design a generator requiring half the RPM by spinning the magnets and coils in opposite directions! It would need brushes, etc, but with a good design I think it would help us achieve lenz tricking with half the RPM (danger). Nice!

Another thing this would do is allow you to mechanically time the firing and load time of each coil. You could do this by designing your mechanical brush switches carefully. I think there is potential with this idea in the future!

As far as phase shifting, the phase shift we are looking for is only within the generator coil itself. Essentially we are trying to control the time from when the magnet creates a changing field around the coil to the time that the coil receives the magnetic field and generates an electrical current to the time that the new electrical current creates a counter magnetic field in reverse of the one the magnet is creating. Changing coil location wont help this, but it can help us reduce the magnet bypass time!