Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Shadesz]

This link is one of the excellent sources:
Electricity - Basic Navy Training Courses, NAVPERS10622, Chapter 17 - AC Circuits - RF Cafe

But .. I don't really know what happens to the coils voltage when current is drawn from it and not applied to it. That is a test that we should make! What happens to the voltage? The current lag is the result of the coil inducing negative voltage to the generated voltage, Thus changing the overall voltage of the coil. This needs to be tested by an oscilloscope.

Thank you that link is very helpful. So quick question to check my understanding. Radio transmissions can use the phase shift to store/send data correct?

[Shadesz]

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

Thank you for this. It is interesting stuff. I think you may have two things going here though. First, as you said, you maintained ouput while reducing resistance, and this seems to help with our lenz lag.

I think another thing may have been in play as well: your longer coil was about twice the mass as your short coil. And this too might have helped delay lenz.

If you think about it, the magnet has to charge the core. If the core mass is greater, it will take the magnet more energy to charge it. This extra required energy manifests itself in a longer magnet approach distance.

In other words, your approaching magnet may have to travel longer with a bigger core to get it to the same charge level.

This is just my current theory/understanding. Further testing/investigation is required.

[elias]

Why does the current lag just 90 degrees?

This link is one of the excellent sources:
Electricity - Basic Navy Training Courses, NAVPERS10622, Chapter 17 - AC Circuits - RF Cafe

But .. I don't really know what happens to the coils voltage when current is drawn from it and not applied to it. That is a test that we should make! What happens to the voltage? The current lag is the result of the coil inducing negative voltage to the generated voltage, Thus changing the overall voltage of the coil. This needs to be tested by an oscilloscope.

[toranarod]

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

once again we come back to the Muller motor coil design.
Thane C Heins has built a Muller and changed the name.
I still think Romero is right with a conical core shape.
my magnets on my motor have a retaining screw in the center this give them
a dome type geometry. remember this video
I have had better results to. I first thought the screws where a bad idea
but they did something to make a little improvement.
must be the conical shape.
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube
Shades did you ever try the wedge shape you posted some time back?

[toranarod]

Hey guys, I'm waiting for more conversation about why we get the phase difference from inductors before I share my theory.

But just as a side note, with my current theory, it appears that a drive inductor maximum phase shift may be 90 degrees, but a generator inuctor (pickup inductor) maximum phase shift could be 180 degrees.



If anyone has the capabilities I would ask them to test this on a transformer.

That's an interesting idea
I would like to know what your thinking is we need some new input.
if it is 180 then that would be fantastic
always willing to look at new ideas.
why we get the phase difference from inductors because any electrical field in motion creates magnetic field in motion. and that magnetic field in turn induces current to flow in the opposite direction to the current that created it. that's all I got.

Please explain your Ideas

[elias]

@Elias,

Very nice. Long coil over fat coil makes total sense when you want to reduce resistance. Less wire per turn = less resistance per turn.

I have a question about your test. What were the cores made out of, and what did each core weigh?

Thanks

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

[MonsieurM]

take a little break and watch (some of you have probably already seen it )...even you are harmonic....enjoy

World Science Festival 2009: Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale - YouTube

[elias]

you could also say that each coil in the picture resembles the secondary of a Tesla Coil

The beauty of creation is the fact that it makes you learn all the time, and it will never ever end I suppose.

[Shadesz]

Just some history for those not familiar with the Watson Machine...

Watsons SelfPowering Generator Energy from Vacuum

[Shadesz]

Hey guys, I'm waiting for more conversation about why we get the phase difference from inductors before I share my theory.

But just as a side note, with my current theory, it appears that a drive inductor maximum phase shift may be 90 degrees, but a generator inuctor (pickup inductor) maximum phase shift could be 180 degrees.



If anyone has the capabilities I would ask them to test this on a transformer.

[Shadesz]

@Elias,

Very nice. Long coil over fat coil makes total sense when you want to reduce resistance. Less wire per turn = less resistance per turn.

I have a question about your test. What were the cores made out of, and what did each core weigh?

Thanks

[Shadesz]

Do you mean by a mechanical switch? the moment you close the switch Its because of what we call the bounce effect. have you ever heard of a de-bounce circuit? pair of cross coupled NAND gates.
there is a reason why switching a coil with a transistor is better than a reed switch. that's why they burn out. they do not close fast enough.
every mechanical switch will actually switch on and off several times before it's properly closed. that's what the spike is.

If this is what you are referring to

Sorry I should not have used the word spike.

My question is, why when you switch an inductor are voltage and current out of phase with voltage being the leader?

Ps, nice build! I wish I had build skills and more resources to do so.

[MonsieurM]

you could also say that each coil in the picture resembles the secondary of a Tesla Coil

[toranarod]

That is good work Rod, beautiful.

This is the old image for the Watson Machine that is amazingly black and white, as I have never understood why, maybe it was copied from a book:



Anyway ... what really is interesting about this design, are these five points:

1. A really large rotor!
2. Really long coils!
3. Muller type Odd/Even design, as you can see the magnets and coils are not completely aligned.
4. Really large space between the magnets.
5. A really large flywheel.

Now that is quite interesting!
What about the long coils? actually I did a test a couple of days ago with a fat coil and a long coil with about same number of turns. I shorted them, and both of them were drawing about the same amount of current when shorted, but ... The long one had much higher lenz delay, and dragged the rotor much less! Because it had less resistance. Longer the coil less resistance it takes for each turn.
Watson was pulsing all of this into a low impedance battery, now this sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Only speculations and some food for thought ...


Elias

Thank you Elias
you have just confirmed my raving on about the resistance needing to low as possible.
great Photo and information.

[elias]

That is good work Rod, beautiful.

This is the old image for the Watson Machine that is amazingly black and white, as I have never understood why, maybe it was copied from a book:



Anyway ... what really is interesting about this design, are these five points:

1. A really large rotor!
2. Really long coils!
3. Muller type Odd/Even design, as you can see the magnets and coils are not completely aligned.
4. Really large space between the magnets.
5. A really large flywheel.

Now that is quite interesting!
What about the long coils? actually I did a test a couple of days ago with a fat coil and a long coil with about same number of turns. I shorted them, and both of them were drawing about the same amount of current when shorted, but ... The long one had much higher lenz delay, and dragged the rotor much less! Because it had less resistance. Longer the coil less resistance it takes for each turn.
Watson was pulsing all of this into a low impedance battery, now this sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Only speculations and some food for thought ...


Elias