Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[qvision]

If it was an alternating current then the second wire will have potential power via induction, just like transformer action and this would be constant.

[Shadesz]

Newbie question,

No magnets involved... If you apply a current through one wire on a bifilar coil, will the second wire pickup a constant current or just a spike as the current in the first wire is growing? It would have to be a short spike wouldn't it?

[qvision]

@ All, it's been a good day, plenty of new/old stuff to explore

[Shadesz]

Hey Rod,

I was just thinking, if your acceleration on all the coils happened at the same starting RPM, perhaps the best process to test if they are all adding to the system would be something like this...

1- Get the rotor up to the ideal speed with all coils open.

2- Short the first coil and see the acceleration.

3- Back some power off the front runner. (just enough to return you back to the ideal starting RPM, or a little above that)

4- Short the next coil.

5- Again watch the acceleration and then back off the dirve power to return to the ideal starting RPM.

6- Continue this process until all coils are shorted.

7- Lastly: Measure each coil output and compare to the input on your Outrunner.

--------

If you could measure total power out and in between each stage that would be ideal.

Note: It may be easier than this, but if you are having problems getting the coils to work together, this process may help.

If the coils accelerate at different speeds you might be able to do it by engaging the lowest RPM coil first and then working your way up.

You are a good man Rod.

[elias]

so 3 coils with one neutral...6 3 9



now about the long coils...think of them as vortex funnels and how the length of a funnel affects the vortex...

see the second picture, doesn't it remind you of Tesla's Set up

THIS NEEDS TO BE TESTED, thanks I love the vortex.

Do you think that if we make the coil core like a vortex cone or a pyramid, the magnetic field concentrate more on the end tip of the vortex like water going down the drain?

[elias]

@ Elias, i wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that a longer coil is best after such a small-range test.

Thanks for the remarks.
Tesla himself recommended making long coils too, and also Watson used really long coils in his machine and nobody has asked why. My tests also show this. The question is how long, and of course the performance will degrade if we make it too long.

[Shadesz]

I have acceleration under dead short circuit condition. one coil at a time.
I have not tried all coils simultaneously. that will be the tester.
I will do a video and post up on you tube. this thing really hammers out the RPM

Great to hear! Good job Rod!

Good job all!

Man I have more I wanna discuss but got to go to class. lol Dang that distant EE degree.

[Shadesz]

@Everyone

I think that I have found a real secret to the Muller machine. Read carefully. Maybe the case is resolved. I am so excited about this.

First the facts:

1. Shorting coils without any noticeable drag on the Rotor is completely possible.
2. Muller uses an odd-even arrangement of magnets and coils, which makes all of the voltages induced in the coils out of phase witheachother.
3. Mullers generator is simple enough to work.

Back in February I was using three coils as a generator and four magnets on the rotor, I REALLY DO ADMIT THAT I FORGOT SOMETHING! I was able to achieve a great amount of acceleration by using all of the three parallel to each other while driving a load. I dismissed it as a normal acceleration effect BUT IT WAS NOT!
Now I understand why! because the coils were driving the rotor, while powering my lamp. Remember that all of the voltages in a Muller design are out of phase! This means I had 3 phases of voltages. When you connect them parallel to each other, they actually drive each other! The beauty of this is the fact the the LAGGING PHASE ALWAYS DRIVES THE LEADING PHASE!

Therefore if your just connect the coils parallel to each other WITHOUT SHORTING OR LOADING, the rotor should accelerate as it did when I tested this in February! Rodney should test this as he has completed his generator.

This is serious guys, I never thought of it until it hit me today.

Remember that the driving coil is always the coil that is neutral and half of the other coils that are being driven are in a position that the magnet leaves the coil. Even this adds the the phase shift because we are using many many inductors parallel and series to each other depending on the current flow.

Here was my three phase muller generator before it exploded:


For those interested my tests are documented over here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

Elias

Edit: This is so similar to Tesla's concept of Two phase motor design, which he lagged the main input current by 90 degrees and fed it to the other two stators. But this time this concept is being used to make the generator run itself!!!

Cool stuff. I hope it works! If you guys remember, I created a thread and figured out a couple formulas that would let us upgrade our units in a modular fashion. By using the stuff I learned, you can more easily figure out how to keep three phase power on units with more than three coils. You may wan to look it over about now.

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/8827-asymmetric-coil-magnet-ratios.html

[MonsieurM]

so 3 coils with one neutral...6 3 9



now about the long coils...think of them as vortex funnels and how the length of a funnel affects the vortex...

see the second picture, doesn't it remind you of Tesla's Set up

[elias]

I found it!

@Everyone

I think that I have found a real secret to the Muller machine. Read carefully. Maybe the case is resolved. I am so excited about this.

First the facts:

1. Shorting coils without any noticeable drag on the Rotor is completely possible.
2. Muller uses an odd-even arrangement of magnets and coils, which makes all of the voltages induced in the coils out of phase witheachother.
3. Mullers generator is simple enough to work.

Back in February I was using three coils as a generator and four magnets on the rotor, I REALLY DO ADMIT THAT I FORGOT SOMETHING! I was able to achieve a great amount of acceleration by using all of the three parallel to each other while driving a load. I dismissed it as a normal acceleration effect BUT IT WAS NOT!
Now I understand why! because the coils were driving the rotor, while powering my lamp. Remember that all of the voltages in a Muller design are out of phase! This means I had 3 phases of voltages. When you connect them parallel to each other, they actually drive each other! The beauty of this is the fact the the LAGGING PHASE ALWAYS DRIVES THE LEADING PHASE!

Therefore if your just connect the coils parallel to each other WITHOUT SHORTING OR LOADING, the rotor should accelerate as it did when I tested this in February! Rodney should test this as he has completed his generator.

This is serious guys, I never thought of it until it hit me today.

Remember that the driving coil is always the coil that is neutral and half of the other coils that are being driven are in a position that the magnet leaves the coil. Even this adds the the phase shift because we are using many many inductors parallel and series to each other depending on the current flow.

Here was my three phase muller generator before it exploded:


For those interested my tests are documented over here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

Elias

Edit: This is so similar to Tesla's concept of Two phase motor design, which he lagged the main input current by 90 degrees and fed it to the other two stators. But this time this concept is being used to make the generator run itself!!!

[chalamadad]

Speedup when shorting output

Hi everyone! I have made a video demonstrating the speedup effect I (finally) got when shorting one generator coil behind the FWBR.

Speedup effect with shorted output - YouTube

[toranarod]

@ Elias, thanks that's really useful. Probably the best ohms-to-henrys ratio, and taking into consideration the practicalities of size, would be gotten from 0.25mm wire then.

@ Rod, that's looking lovely but all that aluminium worries me, aren't you worried about the extraneous effects the eddy currents will cause ?

Yes I am. If I could change the parts I would.
for the early design types I have worked with the materials I could afford and obtain. I cannot manufacturer some of the things that would be ideal.
Soon I want to start building a much larger working machine based on what we have learned.
I will be looking for better materials. we do the best we can.

[Dave45]

If you must go with the magnetic motor and you want to beat lenz the neogen website posted a schematic where the bucking coils ran into a transformer, this is the way to make a magnet motor work and beat lenz.
I couldnt get the website to come up they may have taken it down.
Dave

[qvision]

@ Elias, i wouldn't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that a longer coil is best after such a small-range test.

According to the formula for impedance, a shorter, fatter coil should be better but with more turns than the short coil you made, that was far too few.

A pity we can't simulate this because it is costly, both in time and money, to test many different coils.

What we need to do is work together more effectively, if everyone could try various coils that they have or can make and post the results.

I will get more wire next week (0.25mm) and do tests with that, i also have mild steel cores on order and will be replicating OUG's transformer demo and i will report on that.

I think it will be easier to get the transformer device working, i think it will be a long, hard road to get a pulse motor working with this effect, but i sincerely hope that i'm wrong !

[qvision]

@ Elias, thanks that's really useful. Probably the best ohms-to-henrys ratio, and taking into consideration the practicalities of size, would be gotten from 0.25mm wire then.

@ Rod, that's looking lovely but all that aluminium worries me, aren't you worried about the extraneous effects the eddy currents will cause ?