Toroidal Power Amplifier

[rave154]

and id just like to say...

god bless ( And i dont mean "god" in the way most people do ) Eric Dollard, i like that guy

[nilrehob]

Wow I just realized what Tesla was saying is going on in a toroid. The flux is indeed contained withing the core if it is not saturated. But there are lobes that get formed that have a north and south orientation to it. Think of these lobes as a slippery lobe of north field and south field. They extend out of the ring and meet on the other side of the energizing coil.

Just like we have on a straight piece of core there are field hot spots and on a toroid these hot spots are outside of the core. When you energize the toroid's primary the lobe on the top will be north and the lobe on the bottom is south for instance. When the energizing signal is an ac signal this causes a flipping of the north and south.

If someone skilled in the art of illustration could put an animation together that would be helpful. I'll try my best to draw up some pictures and put them on my host and link them here in the meantime.

Lets discuss this as I don't have the full grasp of the situation and would like to try to get to the bottom of this discovery.

Sounds interesting
looking forward to the drawing

/Hob

[nilrehob]

nil, re -read & look at the diagrams of the pdf..... it will hit you

as the flux from the primary "enters" the toroid core.....it ZIPS around the core to try and complete the magnetic circuit....as it does so it "drags" the part of the flux circuit that is in the air with it....and THATS the part that cuts the secondary.........no matter "where" the secondary is wound as long as the secondary goes "through" the toroid. This explains WHY the secondary windings DONT have to be TIGHT against the toroid....they can even be a long way away from it in the middle of the toroid....and they STILL produce the same power.

However.....IF you wind the secondary TIGHT to the core........you will still get the same current/voltage induced into it ( you will get this no matter WHERE the secondary is )......but when its tight to the core......the secondarys current will induce a counter flux thats in opposition to the primary flux......or at the very least will induce a flux that takes up space in the toroid and thus raises the current drawn from the primary.

the pdf EXPLAINS the very question asked in the eric dollard video. ( thats how i kinda found it .....sort of )

So its the longitudinal wavefront that does it?

/Hob

[nilrehob]

I will do some testing with the original windings in place
then Ill rewind them
just need the time for it

/Hob

[Jbignes5]

I edited my post to show the picture above...

Sorry I added the picture to my previous post...

But I would like to submit the experiences of Tesla as what is really going on here.

Here it is: BEST AVAILABLE COP - Google Patent Search

This is what I suspect is the first toroid used for producing electricity. Self sustaining electricity. This is what I think is the Lockridge device. Now I know there are several parts to the patent but if you will just put all the parts onto a single shaft this is what Tesla figured out. The generator field coils are toroids and so is the transformer. Read the description of the generator and you can see where he talks about pole projections. These were not pieces of steel or core material but virtual lobes of north or south fields in between each winding I believe.

This is my current field of study at the moment and I thought it was related to the discussion at hand.

[Groundloop]

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/3609-big-joule-theif-35.html

[nilrehob]

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-theif-35.html

My todo-list is overflowing

/Hob

[nilrehob]

Sorry I added the picture to my previous post...

But I would like to submit the experiences of Tesla as what is really going on here.

Here it is: BEST AVAILABLE COP - Google Patent Search

This is what I suspect is the first toroid used for producing electricity. Self sustaining electricity. This is what I think is the Lockridge device. Now I know there are several parts to the patent but if you will just put all the parts onto a single shaft this is what Tesla figured out. The generator field coils are toroids and so is the transformer. Read the description of the generator and you can see where he talks about pole projections. These were not pieces of steel or core material but virtual lobes of north or south fields in between each winding I believe.

This is my current field of study at the moment and I thought it was related to the discussion at hand.

What about making a rotating magnetic field solid-state?
Maybe using the same technique as in the RV to get it revolving with just one phase?
Its on my todo-list.

/Hob

[nilrehob]

nil, re -read & look at the diagrams of the pdf..... it will hit you

as the flux from the primary "enters" the toroid core.....it ZIPS around the core to try and complete the magnetic circuit....as it does so it "drags" the part of the flux circuit that is in the air with it....and THATS the part that cuts the secondary.........no matter "where" the secondary is wound as long as the secondary goes "through" the toroid. This explains WHY the secondary windings DONT have to be TIGHT against the toroid....they can even be a long way away from it in the middle of the toroid....and they STILL produce the same power.

However.....IF you wind the secondary TIGHT to the core........you will still get the same current/voltage induced into it ( you will get this no matter WHERE the secondary is )......but when its tight to the core......the secondarys current will induce a counter flux thats in opposition to the primary flux......or at the very least will induce a flux that takes up space in the toroid and thus raises the current drawn from the primary.

the pdf EXPLAINS the very question asked in the eric dollard video. ( thats how i kinda found it .....sort of )

What if the primary winding goes all around the core?
Where will the new flux lines come from,
and how will they propagate?

/Hob

[rave154]

What if the primary winding goes all around the core?
Where will the new flux lines come from,
and how will they propagate?

/Hob

Nil, exactly the same principle applies except now it will be happenng all over the toroid and in all directions. I/ they only showed a partialy wound toroid for clarity.

p.s

I recreated a setup ( Figure 1-1 from classfluxan.pdf ) using one toroid with a partially wound primary (which is wound tight to the core )...with a secondary that was wound around my home-made spool (and the two linked like 2 links of a chain ) and thus could be moved from close to the core ....to a position where it was as far away from the core as possible ( the centre of the core ).... while pulsing DC and getting a sine wave from the secondary it showed that all measurements of the voltage on the secondary stayed the same no matter wether the secondary was close to the core or as far away as possible.

The above seems to confirm at least partially the validity of the classfluxan.pdf.

[Jbignes5]

This just occurred to me...

If we look at the toroid from the side view like it was a plane view it would look like the letter I. There should be field lines going from north to south forming a ball like field structure. If poles are getting formed like I showed then it should be so that the filed lines complete in the form of a ball from north to south. Yes a good majority will be contained in the core but I think these other flux lines are borrowed from the environments flux lines. This might be what Steorn's effect relies on. They say a good distance away they can still effect the rotor and not have it feedback to the source. This would ring true if my hypothesis is correct. There might not even be a direct link to the flux but just a mere wisp of a connection nearest the core. What I am seeing now looks like this:
..N
.(I)
..S

The I is the only matter in that picture. The I is the core viewed from the side. The left ( is one half of the ball field starting at the north top and going down. The right field ) is the same. Where the coils are on the toroid there is a neutral line just like in a magnet. So the ball field is not complete. It has holes in it where the coils are. The amount of travel this quasi ball field goes should the the dimensions of the coil. The coil probably will not cause a force beyond the coils end because of the core. One coil will have two pole projections from it. Of course north and south.

It takes time for the energy to flow or transverse this coil. Where it gets it's maximum force is at resonance of that coil on that core. If you don't wrap the coil close to the core it creates less of a backwards force or opposition to the flow. This brings the ability to move the poles faster by keeping the back flow from effecting the forward push but still providing a guide for the flux. It would be like adding grease to a bearing. It has less resistance to moving. At this point the core is just a guide for the flux if you move the coil further out. It certainly corresponds to your findings about the rms and peak voltages.

It could be that there are two feilds at play here. One magnetic (internal) and one electric (external). This would coincide with many theories that there are two fields at play. Like in the bifilar coil the magnetic field is shorted out and the electric field is not hampered much at all. With the toroid core the magnetic field is trapped in the core and the electric field is free to work. It seems from many theories that one is 90 degrees apart from the other and that would hold true in the way that I described it and for that matter the way Tesla describes it. He knew there was a devision of the fields. He knew how to short out one field and still have the other to react with he also knew that the other field is way more efficient then the magnetic component.

I know this gets in deep here but we should at least look at what Tesla and others have provided for us and then experiment on those lines.

[nilrehob]

I just had a few minutes extra so I did a quick experiment, but I'm not sure on how to read the figures yet. The experiment isn't really what I had in mind for the toroids but since its so simple I just had to try it out. I used the pre-wound primary on each toroid, the left one as primary in and the right as secondary out. The extra winding around both is 54 turns and is shorted:



I used two "energy" meters for voltage,power,current and one clamp-meter for current.

Unloaded:
left: energy 220V, 5W
extra: clamp 0.18A
right: energy 160V

Loaded with light-bulb 60W:
left: energy 220V, 64W, 0.29A clamp 0.33A
extra: clamp 2.06A
right: energy 153V, 81W, 0.53A clamp 0.25A

The different reading on energy-meter and clamp-meter doesn't make sense, yet. I guess its a phase thing?

/Hob

[rave154]

Nil,

thanks for starting tests

Yes, i have a feeling phase angles & power Factors will be at play here.

One thing ive noticed so far in all my little tests is that the primary or the system as a whole ( though i think its just the primary ) seems to have a favorite frequency which just happens to be a fraction over 1 MHz....this frequency produces the highest voltage on winding-III. ( im not suggesting that merely measuring a bigger voltage is OU in any form btw ).

I just took my two ferrite toroids each of which have 38 turns on them.....they were linked like 3 links of a chain by a copper strip 15mm wide, 1/4mm thick and approx 30cm long......it went rhough both toroids twice and then both ends of the strip connected to be shorted.

Results..

4.9V pulsed DC @ 50% duty cycle ( DC produced the highest output in terms of voltage )

output from winding-III 9.9V RMS, 25V peak-to-peak, perfect sine wave.

when i disconnected the two ends of the copper strip the output went down to almost zero......giving evidence that indeed the copper-link-strip is "conducting" ( im using that term loosely there ) from one toroid to the other one.

Best output was when the copper strip was pulled tight against the 2nd toroid........this is hinting to me that a higher output might be obtained by using a winding as shown in my last image attatchment.

[dragon]

I did some playing with this a year or so ago and the outcome is interesting indeed. You do need to pay attention to resonance of both toroids to get the best output. To couple them you only need a heavy single wire between them. Note that the output will be 180* out of phase with the input.

Lots of interesting things you can do with toroid couplings. Below shows 2 toroids coupled with a heavy copper wire.
________
Mary jane

[scratchrobot]

This guy does some nice experiments with toroidal core's.
link

scratchrobot