Joule Ringer!

[Stephen Brown]

Thanks

Bill, (PB)
Thanks for the "How to" breakdown on running Leds optimally.
I have been very curious about the running voltages of differing Led's in general. Also, seeing the simplicity of the internal circuits.
Your very thorough inquiry and explanation makes it much easier for the rest of us to build with greater flexibility.

Seeing the output from the Shack transformer matching up with all of the custom wound aircores over at OU is interesting. I haven't been able to match the output of the Shack transformer on any of my aircores without the use of a a ferrite rod core.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Stephen

[Rfacts]

PB:

Thanks for the gained knowledge that you've shared with your posts and videos. I appreciate your continued methodical approach and experimentation efforts in the pursuit of expanding knowledge and improving efficiency. Empirical data is essential to make good progress, and detail oriented experimenters with good technical knowledge like you really help make advances.

I share your curiosity and pursuit of technical improvements. I few months ago I disassembled a 263 LED 1500 lumen 110VAC 14W bulb made in China. I was curious about the circuit design and wanted to modify it to replace a 175W mercury vapor bulb in an outdoor fixture that had a small load operating voltage of 240VAC. The circuit in this LED bulb was the same as you detailed in your last set of videos:

FWBR with RC network on input and output
Input RC: 1.5uF 400V film capacitors, 4 in parallel for total of 7.5uF with 100K ohm ¼ watt resistor in parallel
FWBR: MB6M 600V 0.5A General Semi 4 pin IC chip
Output RC: 4.7uF 400VDC electrolytic capacitor with 100K ohm ¼ watt resistor in parallel
263 LEDs: 5 groups of 44 LEDs in series, 1 group of 43 LEDs in series, all 6 groups in parallel

7.5uF Input RC: 124.4VAC 60 Hz mains input > DC output to LEDs 129.8VDC with 11.5VAC ripple
44 LEDs in series = 2.95VDC per LED, 43 LEDs in series = 3.02VDC per LED

0.6uF Input RC: 240.1VAC 60 Hz fixture transformer input > DC output to LEDs 128.7VDC 5.3VAC ripple
44 LEDs in series = 2.93VDC per LED, 43 LEDs in series = 2.99VDC per LED

Decreasing the input RC capacitance from 7.5uF to 0.6uF increased the alternating current capacitive reactance with no power loss due to heat, this maintained the LED bulb efficiency while operating at the higher 240AC input voltage. The modified LED bulb provided adequate lighting for this rural application with use of E40 to E27 bulb socket adapter. This resulted in an immediate energy savings (175W > 14W) and saved changing out the light pole fixture.

I’ll reiterate that exceeding the LED Vf specification, ~3.2-3.7VDC for white LEDs, shortens the life of the LEDs. I experimented with a 38 LED 30,000 hour 2.5W bulb intentionally driving it at 3.9VDC per LED with 60 Hz mains power, brighter but only lasted ~500 hours. This China made LED bulb was advertised as 110VAC-240VAC and had all 38 LEDs in series, so when the weakest link (LED) in the series failed all lighting was lost. This circuit consisted of:

Input RC: 3.9uF 400V film capacitor 500K ohm ¼ watt resistor in parallel
FWBR: 1N4007 1000V 1A (x4)
Output RC: 4.7uF 400VDC electrolytic capacitor with 500K ohm ¼ watt resistor in parallel
38 LEDs in series with 560 ohm ½ watt resistor (inefficient current limiting method)

Thought I’d post these additional examples of the circuit you demonstrated. I really appreciate your efforts and look forward to learning more from your future posts and videos. I also appreciate the constructive efforts of others and the info they've shared.

Thanks,
Rfacts

[totoalas]

Sjr Dc Ac Dc Lighting 290612

AC LOAD IN SERIES WITH POSITIVE OF BATTERY / ANOTHER OUTPUT TO NEGATIVE OF SOURCE STEADY VOLTAGE AND 208 OHMS USING LDR BY JONNY MUCH BRIGHTER AS COMPARED WITH NORMAL SJR OUTPUT CONNECTION BATTERY MEASURED 26 V AC / 12.2 V DC ON 12 V 7AH SLA BATTERY
TOTOALAS

SUPER JOULE RINGER WITH DC/DC+AC SOURCE 300612 - YouTube

totoalas

[jonnydavro]

AC Electrolysis?

Hi.I tried an electrolysis experiment today with Lasersabers Jouleringer and a variant and I think they are doing electrolysis with low frequency AC.
What do you think? Jonny.
Jouleringer Low frequency AC Electrolysis? - YouTube

[totoalas]

Hi.I tried an electrolysis experiment today with Lasersabers Jouleringer and a variant and I think they are doing electrolysis with low frequency AC.
What do you think? Jonny.
Jouleringer Low frequency AC Electrolysis? - YouTube

hI jONNY
yES IT CAN ALSO PRODUCE HYDROGEN. by INDUCTION //// ... WHEN i SOAKED AN FL TUBE IN A WATER FILLED PLASTIC BOTTLE ONE END OF THE TUBE IS PRODUCING MINUTE BUBBLES
Solar Light bub Day & Night Lighting 0180512 - YouTube
thanks again for the handy ldr

totoalas

[PhysicsProf]

Hi.I tried an electrolysis experiment today with Lasersabers Jouleringer and a variant and I think they are doing electrolysis with low frequency AC.
What do you think? Jonny.
Jouleringer Low frequency AC Electrolysis? - YouTube

Yes, I agree it certainly looks like electrolysis. I am very impressed at your ability JD to run all this (including LEDs and electrolysis) from a single AA battery.

May I invite you to consider a simple water-calorimetric method.
I did a short vid yesterday -- which shows a straightforward calorimetric approach:

WaterCalorimeterDemo - YouTube

One needs to be able to operate the device with the output power (AC is OK) going into a simple resistance with this approach, and I think we're almost there. I hope others will also try this method.

The text with the vid above:
Today I set up a simple water calorimeter, to measure output energy and power with decent accuracy. I have other calorimeters, but this is to show how straightforward it is, and to allow the experimenter to get a handle on output power -- which can often be tricky with output that is far from DC or sinusoidal AC; for example, from a blocking oscillator or Don Smith-type device.


Water is weighed in grams with a scale that cost about $10 and placed in a styrofoam cup. Or you could use a graduated cylinder, 1ml = 1gram for water. Temperature change (delta-T) is measured in Centigrade using a TK thermometer, that cost about $10 also. For this check, I used a power supply to give me 14 V and measure the current; I could have used a battery at 12 V (for example) and an ammeter.

The power is dumped into an "immersion heater" (about $7) which is simply a resistive coil; this is stirred in the water to heat the volume of water. At room temp, the resistance was 53 ohms. Time is measured with a stop-watch on my wrist. Easy.

Result:
Power-input = 14V @ 0.264A = 3.7 Watts input.
Energy output = Qheating = 4.19 J/g-degC (H2Omass) (delta-TempC) =
4.19 x 316g x 0.9C = 1192J
This heating required 5min19s = 319 seconds, so the output power measured in the calorimeter is:
Poutput = Eoutput/Time = 1192J/319sec = 3.7Watts -- which agrees very well with the input power.

Thus, we have tested the simple water calorimeter and shown that it WORKS! It is a valuable tool for measuring output energy and power.

In another test, I ran at 12V @226mA = 2.7W and the water heated from 21.2 to 21.6 Degrees-C in 210S. So
Eout = 4.19 (316g) 0.4C = 531J, and the power-out is
Pout = 531J/210s = 2.5W, compared to the known 2.7W in.
To get decent accuracy, one needs to run for a long enough time to heat the water by nearly 1deg-C or so.

______________

PB -- nice work; have you considered how much output power from the blocking oscillator is lost in the conversion to DC?? That is, one would like to measure all the power from the BO, not just that which is delivered finally to the LED bulbs as DC.

The calorimetric method described above, and also the electrolysis method by Davro, have the possibility of measuring essentially all the output power IMO.

[Peanutbutter29]

Thanks all for good comments

@Rfacts. A very nice application of current limiting! Nice job with relaying the help of mains voltage. I assume many of these China bulbs probably use a similar circuit. Tweaking Volts through the bulbs for extra life is a great practical application. I agree always prefer reactive versus resistive if possible.

@PhysicsProf

In terms of power lost through the rectifier circuit, it should be a predictable number based on design. Inverters run in the 85-95% range and these are on the bottom side.
- The FWBR & filter should be about 85% to maybe 88% efficient, as long as frequency is in the working range for diodes primarily (caps to a small degree from design). Frequency should be well within diode range.
-Without an actual test we can make an educated guess at the BO output being around 1.15w (for whenever I showed 1w going to bulbs). I have no evidence to suspect otherwise here. I suppose this leaves with 350-400mw of loss in both 2n3055 and BO transformer (assuming the 1.6w input at that same point).
I suppose the utilitech circuit is probably closer to 90% efficient +/- 2%. Only the best inverters made (and expensive) reach the full 95%. I don't believe any modified sine wave inverters can reach this, so has to be full sine.

I guess I considered a final output power as a good reference, being all inclusive at that point. Plus it seems the easier measurement to make. It is likely, I suppose that the diodes and LED "relative" resistance and capacitance (variable) plays a factor in both light output and overall efficiency. Partial evidence here, due to the behavior of caps across the bridge ( e.g. cap across secondary). This, I feel, also relates to the "minor" Lu/W movements a given coil can "move around in" with various tunings, power, etc.
Basically, if there is any meaningful advantage from interactions with NP junctions (diodes / led); it is possible then to get different (less) noted power through a purely resistive load. However, as you mention; if you want to test the A/C (pre-rectified) component, water heating may be the "easiest" method. If we had a nice sine of <100hz we could use standard equipment, but that isn't the case. I suppose finally, if there's no NP advantage (so strictly resistive to system), then Power factor is power factor; and watts should come out the same.

In many things there is this 5-10% loss range that seems unavoidable. The few circumstances where 95% is achieved is from more modern field effect transistors and such. A transformer by itself in proper operation is one of the few that can reach 97-98% (on paper ). In some ways escaping this, in circuits, is like avoiding death (very poor chances, lol).

Thanks
PB

[Peanutbutter29]

sorry to double, but I wanted to separate for ease.

@ Lidmotor, just saw your last video finally, heh! Good job! I do believe there may indeed be merit to a pulsed idea. For the 12v bulb, are you sure there's nothing inside? There should be, at minimum, some sort of current regulation (eg resistor etc.); since if this was put on a running car volts of 14-15 w/o regulation; you could fry bulbs. I would assume there's a protection there; maybe a zener at worst.

With the high power (puck) LED's, if you run them very bright; be sure to have a heatsink on them. I believe most LED's last for rated hours at < 85C. Sometimes, <75C can go longer than rated. Then it's up to mfg. rating, which can vary from 20,000 hrs (china) to 50,000 hrs.(phillips) << best quality on the market.
(clip from Luxeon Emitters: "Philips Lumileds projects that LUXEON Rebel products will deliver, on average, 70% lumen maintenance (L70) at 50,000 hours of operation at a forward current of up to 700 mA. This projection is based on constant current operation with junction temperature maintained at or below 135°C.) Highest temp and hours in the industry

Also, what is the duty on the 555 your using? I suppose if you found a good frequency, you could then play with lowering duty and comparing lu/w at that point.

Finally, about the efficiency curves I'd shown on the old channel. Ya, that butter zone for highest efficacy (for any given LED) should be at the lower (<25% output) range. This was expressed, and can be seen, with most LED spec charts.
From the data sheet for an LED overlay the shown:
Forward current vs. forward voltage
with
Typical relative luminous flux vs. forward current, thermal pad temperature = 25ºC

Nice work again Lidmotor!
Thanks,
PB

PS- Finally got last piece for MC today!! YAY! I'd expected to be able to show it, right after sneak peek; but have been waiting for the "odd" bits. I'll get this into a proto and hope to show the final "proof" soon. Been drooling on all the parts waiting to get this together!! Pretty excited here for me.

[PhysicsProf]

Thanks for the update, PB.

PB: In terms of power lost through the rectifier circuit, it should be a predictable number based on design. Inverters run in the 85-95% range and these are on the bottom side.
- The FWBR & filter should be about 85% to maybe 88% efficient, as long as frequency is in the working range for diodes primarily (caps to a small degree from design). [snip]
I suppose the utilitech circuit is probably closer to 90% efficient +/- 2%.

You have measured the OUTPUT power TO THE LEDs. Could you do this while running on the mains, and simultaneously measure the INPUT POWER from 120V AC? e.g., use a kill-a-watt meter.

In this way, we have an actual measurement of the efficiency! which would be very helpful.

"The FWBR & filter should be about 85% to maybe 88% efficient" -- an actual measurement is what I'm requesting, since you have already taken these bulbs apart!

[Lidmotor]

Pulsing the leds

@PB
The idea to pulse the leds and maybe get a better lumen to watt ratio was suggested by someone else. His suggestion was to hunt for a duty cycle and frequency that might be a sweet spot. I really have not done much with the idea except on low power Joule Thief type circuits. I'm sure that the engineers who build the leds have gone down this road long ago. I didn't even look at the duty cycle on the simple 555 timer setup that I made. I just hooked up a pot for the duty cycle and one for the frequency and asked my good friends Mr. Trial and Mr. Error to help out. We came up with what I showed in the video. It was a crude and non scientific way but ---a way.
I will look at the led spec sheets that you mentioned to look for the intersection on the graphs. What you call the "butter" zone. That intersection point on the graphs where the forward voltage vs current intersect should be a interesting target to investigate. Maybe "blink" that with the right pulse and see what happens at the light meter.

I can't see down into that 12volt led bulb without cutting it open but I think you are right about there being some electronic component burried in it. My little AM radio makes a high pitch sound when I hold it near the bulb. There must be at least some kind of current limiter like you say.

I burned out one of my small AC led spot lights accidently. I took it apart and removed the simple diode and cap filter circuit. The led board was still good so I just rewired straight to the bulb base via the current limiting resistor. Guess what----it still works on my boxed "Super Joule Ringer 2.0". . Now I am really wondering what kind of wave form we are really sending out the tail end of this thing. Maybe a compound pulsed DC kinda thing?? One thing I have found out the hard way is that it will shock you silly if you are not careful.


Lidmotor

[Slider2732]

@Jonny - An update on replicating your electrolysis. Without a 3055, i've tried a D2641 and then a D1414. Both are Darlingtons and so i'm still looking for a regular power transistor.
I can get a good field collapse flash out of both the transistor protection diode and the in-circuit LED...but there's a problem with the secondary connections. I'm getting no Base triggering.
I've got it hooked up like your diagram has it for the Joule Thief type, with 2 connections to the AA, then 1 Primary to the Collector and 1 Secondary to the Base.
There's no HV off the MOT casing it seems (though a DVM hasn't been connected yet, just no light from the neon).
There's a wire factory soldered that goes to the casing, so I should be ok for the HV out of the case. It's my first MOT circuit, hence the babbling
In other words, a fancy big JT coil collapse, with no running yet.

Update - Swapped to a TIP122 (still Darlington) and then changed 1 secondary connection to a little tab connection coming out of the middle of the cardboard that covers the secondary. At one spot on the 50K pot, the neon has lit up on one side
The in-circuit LED is off and the transistor protection LED is off. Getting somewhere now

2nd update - Something you might wish to try, or already know about.
When the neon lights on just 1 leg, connect a small orange AC cap (103 or 104) to the leg that doesn't light. Other side of the cap carries on as the connection from the neon. Now, both sides will light !
My question, because I haven't got to the electrolysis yet, is would the double leg lighting of the neon, now mean a double electrolysis from both legs of the immersed cap if another different value cap was series connected ?

[jonnydavro]

@totoalas.Hi Its good that you have seen a gas produced of a FL tube with your setup.Do you see both oxygen and hydrogen or just one gas?I can only see one but my eyes may have been affected by all these Leds we have been lighting over the last couple of years lol.Glad you found a use for the ldr light meter.Cheers Jonny.
@Physicsprof Many thanks.The fact that I am using a MOT for this experiment is probably the reason for so much going on from a AA.The shocks you get from just a AA battery are in a different league to other transformers so it seemed like a good one to try.
I don't know how much heat is generated with this type of circuit but there is energy coming out in many directions,base emitter diode,bemf from primary coil so it is hard to catch everything coming out of these circuits in a single measurement.
You should try a MOT in your lightbox experiments as it would be interesting to see how it compares with the lynx joule lamp aircore and ferrite versions.Jonny.
@Slider.Thats great you are trying this and sounds like you are making good progress
.The connections on the MOT are a bit strange with the case being one end of the secondary but on my MOT the HV output is higher when using the case as opposed to the tab.
That is a good find with the cap on the neon.I did not know that and I will try it.I was hoping to get hydrogen in both directions like you mentioned but in the setup I showed in the vid, the current/voltage does not seem even in both directions but your cap mod may help there.
If you want to try electrolysis you could put your neon and cap in some water and see what happens.I have tried just a neon and that makes hydrogen just fine but i have only one element lit,you may get gas at both electrodes with your cap/neon and that would be goooood.Many thanks Slider.Jonny.

[Slider2732]

@Jonny - i'll need to make a vid at some point. Findings include....
You can trigger the transistor by holding the Base connection lead in your hand !
Connecting the lead to a metal block like an old PC heatsink, will show different power levels to the neon, based on changing feedback. Move the metal block near to the MOT and the bulb will glow brighter.
The output will partially power up a 2W LOA mains LED bulb (about 30% on).
It will power through the neon, which lights and onward to the mains bulb without issue.
The circuit will dimly light the neon over 1 wire.
Taking the normally power rail connected lead of the output load (LED bulb, neon etc) and bringing it near to the Negative rail lead, will form a spark gap The spark gap fires at about 4Hz, short and sharp at about 2mm and the bulb will flicker as it does so.
I've seen the electrolysis on one leg of a small ceramic capacitor, but I don't think I have the salt solution right. It's sea salt and I mixed at about 1 part salt to 10 water ratio.

[Peanutbutter29]

@physicsprof, Ya I can go ahead and test one of these on A/C. It will be a minute as I'll finish the MC first. I'll also need to get a newer Kill-a-watt that reads decimals. Of course, the one bulb I've gutted has been modified; I can tear apart the second bulb (of the 3 I have) for this test.

EDIT: also I guess I did a quick google to see what the web says regarding FWBR. Here's the first I found: Full Wave Bridge Rectifier
"Efficiency of the half wave rectifier will be about 40.6%." and "The efficiency of a full wave rectifier is about 81.2 %, twice the efficiency of a half wave rectifier."

And here's another page similar: Full Wave Rectifier
"The maximum efficiency of a Full Wave Rectifier is 81.2%."

@Lidmotor, ya if you run straight to LED's (with one string) it's like a HWBR. I pointed out in a real early video with JT's and a seconary; that the output is stronger in one direction than the other (which seems to make sense from DC start). I had noted that opposing strings would have one string light, but not the other. Possibly similar here to the recent electrolysis and "one leg" getting bubbles. E.G we may have 100v in one "direction" (collapse) but 50v in the other (rise).
With basic pulsing of LED's yes mfg's and labs have done some research with this. Actually most drivers vary from DC to PWM for dimming. So, in all technicality, the LED's just get a lower duty; which dims. The most I've seen is statements that high frequency CC SMPS with PWM can be more efficient. There aren't any drivers currently doing this; as I hoped to apply this to Marine lighting a few years back. Been just waiting for one to hit the market.......still.
I would assume that highest efficiency will come from FW rectification as opposed to HW though.

Finally, thinking about it and on a side. LED's behave rather variable to a circuit in terms of resistance and capacitance. These being most greatly variable during the conduction range. Here though is why (from an early and trivial LED and sunlight video) I placed electrolytic caps to store and build charge from 2 leds; rather than them "bleeding" the energy between "themselves". (showed 2 LED's @2v in the sun).
This applies with JR's IF we run straight to the LED rather than a rectifier or switching diode (which behaves, more in an avalanche fashion). Yes, we pick up some loss through voltage drop of diode; however we avoid possible loss from variable conduction of the LED during active voltage ranges.
E.G- a (X)wbr / filter will have a more "even" impedance to the SJR secondary windings; whereas direct to LED's will vary the impedance. The varying impedance results, most notably, with the circuits' operational frequency, attempting to vary. This of course cannot happen (to a great degree) as the "time" where this occurs is small, as well as the delta of the variation; as such, power factor will essentially take the hit.
To drag an old analogy up about a "Cat chasing its' tail" may help visualize this. If we relate the cats' head to a secondary. Then we consider the Tail of the cat a primary (yup tail). Now, the load impedance of the circuit becomes (with SJR) the overall length of the cat including tail (e.g. diameter of chasing revolution), so frequency. This "length" is set at the vary instant our cat begins chasing it's tail. Once this "cycle" has been set into motion (field collapse) and the diameter of rotation for the chase has begun; any change during this cycle would only place the tail farther away, by shortening overall length (eg power factor suffers "during cycle"). A note here, PF-1 would be if the cat head and tail were to meet. Lol with cat.

Thanks
PB

EDIT2: Uhh ya, I won't be sending the China bulb off to the lab; just got word back and OMG!

"I finally heard from my contact and was informed that a system is available for my use. Given the height of the lamp, we may need some custom baffling for the measurement system, but this is covered in the price of testing. Cost is generally half day lab time, $1400 and we can do several lamps if needed. Let me know I this is acceptable and I'll schedule a time to do the test.


Alan
Light Test Labs"

Uhhh, ya....NOT

[Lidmotor]

Electrolysis experiment using Super Joule Ringer 2.0

@Jonny
I have a MOT that I tried to make work on your circuit and for some reason I can't get my transformer to do ANYTHING! Even setting it up as a plain old Joule Thief doesn't work very well. I don't know what is wrong with it (or me). Soooo--- I decided to just use my boxed up SJR 2.0 and see what happens if I use it for electrolysis. It makes bubbles off just one electrode!! It was very interesting to look at. How can that be???? Guys I don't mean little tiny bubbles on one electrode and lots of bubbles on the other. I mean ALL the bubbles were coming off one electrode. How can that be?

@PB
Your explanation of how this device is putting out a lopsided pulse might account for the interesting effect. I didn't try to burn the bubbles but I imagine that they do. Could we have stumbled on a sort of Stan Meyer thing?

Lidmotor