Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[Mark]

So after all mayhem. And figure out the motor was puller not pusher I tried 3 commutator spots.
5200 rpms from 72 volt .6 amp after start up. 2 ohms of resistance on the wire.

Now its doing something.

Best of all its stepping up the output voltage really nice and filling the 4700 UF cap to 92 volt close to instantly and not growing higher. That means its at the perfect point for stepping up.

If your using the razor scooter motor and you want full run down on everything let me know and I'll put it together.

Matt

Mine is similar to yours Matt. 5215rpm's .500 amps @72 volts using 2 commutator sections. I only have a small 300 uf cap that when shorted goes instantly to 40 volts and continues to charge up to 90 volts. I have a brand new Monster Scooter motor that I might set up like yours. Yours seems to have better charging than mine. There are a few things I might not be straight on with your motor.

Please share your full run down.

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

Mine is similar to yours Matt. 5215rpm's .500 amps @72 volts using 2 commutator sections. I only have a small 300 uf cap that when shorted goes instantly to 40 volts and continues to charge up to 90 volts. I have a brand new Monster Scooter motor that I might set up like yours. Yours seems to have better charging than mine. There are a few things I might not be straight on with your motor.
Please share your full run down.
Mark

Hey Mark if you get a chance What wire size are you using and whats ohms of resistance on it.

I'll write it up hopefully by this evening.

Matt

[FRC]

If your using the razor scooter motor and you want full run down on everything let me know and I'll put it together.Matt

Sounds great. I was supposed to be getting the motor Pault is using this
weekend. Now that I see your results, maybe I should have got that 24v
razor motor I wanted to get in the first place.

George

[Peter Lindemann]

Sweet Spot

So after all mayhem. And figure out the motor was puller not pusher I tried 3 commutator spots.
5200 rpms from 72 volt .6 amp after start up. 2 ohms of resistance on the wire.

Now its doing something.

Best of all its stepping up the output voltage really nice and filling the 4700 UF cap to 92 volt close to instantly and not growing higher. That means its at the perfect point for stepping up.

If your using the razor scooter motor and you want full run down on everything let me know and I'll put it together.

Matt

Matt,

It sounds like you've found a sweet spot here. Absolutely excellent! I think it would be worth posting the specs so other people could, at least, get this far, to duplicate your results. The specs we need are:

1) the name and model of the motor you started with.
2) the rotor winding configuration (zig-zag or whatever)
3) any other modifications to the rotor, like addition of diodes (including part number)
4) brush configuration and external wiring diagram for both power and recovery
5) power supply (such as six 12 volt batteries, size or AH rating)

Thanks for all of your great work on this.

Peter

[Mark]

Hey Mark if you get a chance What wire size are you using and whats ohms of resistance on it.

I'll write it up hopefully by this evening.

Matt

The wire came from a coil I got from Rick, it was the thicker of the 2 on a bifilar coil, I'm pretty sure its 23awg (not 26awg like I've been posting). My meters are real cheap so not sure how accurate but I'm getting 2.2 ohms.

[Matthew Jones]

Matt,

It sounds like you've found a sweet spot here. Absolutely excellent! I think it would be worth posting the specs so other people could, at least, get this far, to duplicate your results. The specs we need are:

1) the name and model of the motor you started with.
2) the rotor winding configuration (zig-zag or whatever)
3) any other modifications to the rotor, like addition of diodes (including part number)
4) brush configuration and external wiring diagram for both power and recovery
5) power supply (such as six 12 volt batteries, size or AH rating)

Thanks for all of your great work on this.

Peter

No problems Peter. I got all that. I'm working on putting it together.

Thanks Mark.
If the wire is bigger than what I am using and you have 2.2 ohms then we are sitting just about the same spot.
I am going to test another rotor when I get the time to confirm my thought that a hire ohm of resistance on the wire the better the speed, and anything else that might come with that.

Matt

[Peter Lindemann]

Important Discovery

Hi folks,

Matt's report that his motor is running in "pull" mode instead of "push" mode is very interesting. This also may be why his recovery is better now. Here is a possible explanation.

To run in the "pull mode", the applied current would have to be in the same direction as the generated current, except at a higher level. When the power stroke ends, the winding will be generating the maximum voltage, upon which the recovery pulse now ADDS its voltage. This is the only way the system could be producing voltages above the input source. By running the motor as an attraction motor, it reverses the relationship of the input to the recovery and turns the "back EMF" into an EMF in the same direction as the recovery pulse. By superimposing these voltages on top of each other, the benefit is maximized.

If this is what is happening, then this is a really important discovery about how to run a set-up like this. Recovered voltages above the original input source makes direct recycling of electricity possible, which can further extend battery run times.

WOW.

The only thing we don't know yet is how much mechanical POWER the motor is producing for the input.

Really amazing work, Matt and Mark.

Peter

[Matthew Jones]

Hi folks,

Matt's report that his motor is running in "pull" mode instead of "push" mode is very interesting. This also may be why his recovery is better now. Here is a possible explanation.

To run in the "pull mode", the applied current would have to be in the same direction as the generated current, except at a higher level. When the power stroke ends, the winding will be generating the maximum voltage, upon which the recovery pulse now ADDS its voltage. This is the only way the system could be producing voltages above the input source. By running the motor as an attraction motor, it reverses the relationship of the input to the recovery and turns the "back EMF" into an EMF in the same direction as the recovery pulse. By superimposing these voltages on top of each other, the benefit is maximized............
Peter

So hypothetically speaking, the point at which the input and output are equal we no longer have any BEMF or EMF generated.
I know that probably isn't possible at least with a permanent magnetic motor but maybe with an inductive motor. Pushing???

Any insight would be appreciated.

Matt

[Peter Lindemann]

Need More Data

So hypothetically speaking, the point at which the input and output are equal we no longer have any BEMF or EMF generated.
I know that probably isn't possible at least with a permanent magnetic motor but maybe with an inductive motor. Pushing???

Any insight would be appreciated.

Matt

Matt,

So far, this is speculation. Without being in your shop and testing your motor myself, I don't know exactly what is going on. I am just going by what you are reporting. Right now, your operational reports are extremely encouraging, and I hope you can verify the mechanical power gain, either with a Prony Brake or generator output test, soon. With that, and the specifics of your test set-up, then others can duplicate your results and the thread can move on to the generator side of the system.

Peter

[woopy]

which is NOT and has nothing to do with the BEMF) and to redirect it in the cap (or other external battery a la Bedini).

But this spike contain very few energy and will never be enough powerfull to power the motor, it is only a usable energy complement (some more gram of black powder)

And i assume that nobody here will attempt to capture the BEMF (counter generated voltage) of the motor pulse ? Because if you try you will ask to the motor to make a work to produce energy and of course you will get nothing in compensation but the heat Joule lost and the motor will slow down without energy gain.

So far i experimented the best is to leave the inevitable (Lenz ) BEMF free to act (for nothing) but keep it as small as possible. Nobody can beat Mister Lenz but everybody can try to keep him as a gnome
It is why we will have imperatively to use only 1 pulse per revolution and the brush MUST only act on ONE collector section without touching any other section (of course conected to eventually remainig winding).

And if we want to collect the flyback spike it is necessary to adjust the brush in a way as it leaves the power collector section exactly as it touches the recup collector section as Peter explain in his very clear drawings some post ago. If we can not do this we will loose some input power in the recup circuit.

Very challenging isn'it ?

Thank's for your attention and always ready to accept any contradiction

Good luck at all

Laurent

[pault]

Scaope trace

I have the 12v motor + 2nd brushes + diode to discharge battery running on 12vdc as per post #263. Here is the scope trace:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/2465/img0117vk.jpg

The "straight" line, channel A, is the +ve terminal of the recharge battery (i.e. cathode of the diode). It is zeroed at the bottom. If there are any +ve spikes, then they are too dim to see (with the intensity cranked to max).

Channel B is on the anode of the diode (i.e. attached to discharge brush directly). It's centered at the middle of the scope, i.e. it spikes to -12v for 2ms every 7ms.

This is not what I expected to see.

Is something wired backwards, are the brushes not connecting at the right time, or am I misunderstanding what I should expect to see?

thanks
pt

[pault]

Ammeter

I hooked an old bakelite (Simpson) ammeter, set to 10A (max) into the motor circuit in series with the +ve of the run battery.

The fuse (fast blow) in the meter immediately vaporized.

What range of meter are you guys using for this?

pt

[Matthew Jones]

Details

Alright I wrote it all. The schematic, the details of the parts, the brush wiring, and the motor outline.
You can cut and paste from below or get link here. Motor Details



Any questions or improvements let me know.

It not going to rain tomorrow so I'll be building something to test the the torque. So most likely I won't be around during the day, I'll be in the shop.

Enjoy
Matt

[Matthew Jones]

I hooked an old bakelite (Simpson) ammeter, set to 10A (max) into the motor circuit in series with the +ve of the run battery.

The fuse (fast blow) in the meter immediately vaporized.

What range of meter are you guys using for this?

pt

I have been using a 5 amp analog and a 10 amp digital.

Whats the specs on your windings and how did wire it up. I know your using another motor I would be happy to guess at the problem as I have been through few now.

Matt

[pault]

I have been using a 5 amp analog and a 10 amp digital.

Whats the specs on your windings and how did wire it up. I know your using another motor I would be happy to guess at the problem as I have been through few now.

Matt

2 very wide PM's in the cowling (outer shell). It seems like there is only one commutator section worth of space between the two PM's.

10 slots in the armature.

18awg from slot 1 to slot 6 in, I think, zig-zag[*] winding. One winding to the right of the shaft (top and bottom) the next winding to the left of the shaft. 30 turns. More or less filled the slots. I don't think that I could have put many more windings in the slots.

I think that I positioned my secondary brushes one commutator section away from the run brushes. When I run this version of the motor, I don't smell or see any arc'ing. I think that the motor is turning in the proper direction, from run brush to recovery brush.

thanks
pt
[*] I'm not using a zig-zag winding. It is a single coil wound between slot 1 and slot 6, with each winding alternating right/left of the center axle, to maintain balance.