Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[Blargus]

Shylo,

Yes mbrownn is talking about a different kind of motor. The one I am working on (or waiting on) right now is a permanent magnet DC motor that has 4 permanent magnets in the stator (the motor housing). If that is the same type that you are working on, maybe try putting a diode this way (from last turn)--------|<--------(to commutator) at the end of your coil wire. This is not in Matt's drawing but I think it is necessary based on my experiences. Are you powering all four brushes to get the motor to run? Do you have 2 additional brushes for recovery meaning 6 brushes total?

mbrownn,

Thanks I do have questions...I would love to try it, but I also am very short of funds...I've been trying to save up for 3 450V 4700uF capacitors to continue the scooter motor development, no joy yet. Will keep an eye out for an old delco remy generator, I like the idea of working with field coils. That's a nice magnetic flux picture. There is not much back EMF in the powered coils because the magnetic flux is all moving in a way that does not induce much opposing current in the power coils? But in output coils this is not the case? I just noticed the slots there too Anyway thanks a lot, sorry I am not more able to work on this at the moment, maybe I can soon. I appreciate sharing your work and being able to think about it.

Mike

[mbrownn]

Ah okay, thanks. I thought I had dead battery after running the motor for awhile, I think it is hard on the batteries with these spikes. Well I don't know how able I am to build it at the moment but I am curious. I am sort of amateur at this...I see the four stator coils--am I looking at roughly the right picture here:



Is the rotor modified or rewound at all and are you trying to play with the on time of the stator coils and the rotor coils? Are you trying to do recovery on the rotor and stator? Are the opposite stator coils wired in series? The arrows are the magnetic coupling I suppose? Does that mean you are trying have only an attraction turn the rotor?

By transformer action. do you mean that because of the different wire gauges of rotor and stator the magnetic field of one induces a current at a higher voltage lower current in the other? I'm trying to think what this would do, in the motor I'm working with, a higher voltage makes it run faster.



I did not know that, thanks.

This is the type of generator you need, don't rewind the armature just yet, you need to understand the field coils first.

If you have not seen the video Energy From The Vacuum 14, get it and watch it. Turn the sound down and look at the device.

Machine two slots like you can see in the video and this is our first mod completed. From now on it is research and development.

Now wire two opposing field coils in series with the armature. The brushes to use are the ones directly in line with the two field coils we use. See this drawing on this post...http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post229448

If you connect a DC supply to the device you should find it is magnetically locked and the armature does not move. Study the magnetic circuit on the image.

Now short the two other coils out or use them to power a very low resistance load. The motor may run but not very well. as we are using DC there is no transformer action at this stage but we can start to tune the motor. We will need to move the output field coils either backwards or forwards to obtain maximum motor speed. This will result in the highest voltage output.

Now connect an AC supply and compare the voltage output. It will be bigger than the input if you have it tuned correctly because of a transformer action.

Its not a lockridge yet but this is the basics of the field coils. Now the real work begins. Let me know when you are at this stage.

The transformer action is between the powered field coils, the armature and the output coils. It is this action at the output that causes the motor to turn and accelerate under load. the input field coils are working as a magnetic energizer and produce no torque.They produce no BEMF either, all the BEMF is in the output.

Be aware that as there is no BEMF the current draw will be high so you may have to reduce the input voltage

Do you have any questions about this first part? you should have lots .

[mbrownn]

Hi Mike, with the brushes hooked up stock design (2 positive connections 180 degrees offset, and negatives) ,the motor runs no problem,but am not seeing anything at the collector brushes.
In the post with Matts drawing I only see 2 coils , but you and mbrownn are talking about 4 coils .
Going to try another coil pattern. Mr.L wastes a lot of wire ,with that zig zag . It was a great way to learn though.
shylo

The zigzag is for a reason. The way towire the armature is not the most efficient use of wire, Thats Lap winding, we want to use wave winding.

Mat and peter Concentrated on the armature using a permanent magnet motor, I am using field coils and four of them. No magnets so it is a different beast. What I am doing is closer to the original device as far as I know.

Get a four pole delco remey generator and use that as your starting point.

[shylo]

4 pole

Hi Mike, with the brushes hooked up stock design (2 positive connections 180 degrees offset, and negatives) ,the motor runs no problem,but am not seeing anything at the collector brushes.
In the post with Matts drawing I only see 2 coils , but you and mbrownn are talking about 4 coils .
Going to try another coil pattern. Mr.L wastes a lot of wire ,with that zig zag . It was a great way to learn though.
shylo

[Blargus]

Hi shylo,

Is your stator 4 pole? I had the problem that the motor would do a half turn then block itself. Dr. L pointed me to an old post by Matthew Jones that said you need to put a diode internally on the end of the wound coil to make the brushes pulse the motor only once per revolution. I believe mine is --(end of winding)--(|<)--...but now that I think about it it runs with some sort of recovery but it might be backwards... Err, but just putting a diode on clip leads external to the motor didn't do it for me. Maybe this is problem?

Mike

[shylo]

Any suggestions

Hi folks, I wound the zig zag pattern, but the motor just kept locking up with just 2 contact points . So I used the 4 stock brushes and it works.
I added 2 collector brushes and connected it as per Mr. Lindemanns' drawing.
I'm just using 1 drive battery trying to charge another ,no luck so far.
Since I have 4 supply brushes ,should I have 4 collectors as well?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry Peter I haven't watched the dvd, wish I could ,but I don't even have a dvd player. Times are tough right now.
I make everything from junk I collect, going to put some more coils in there see if that helps.
Thanks shylo

[Blargus]

Sorry for the late reply.

its not just a peek, I want you to build it, ask me and i will tell you.

Charging and discharging at the same time, in my experience, causes the plates to break up.

Ah okay, thanks. I thought I had dead battery after running the motor for awhile, I think it is hard on the batteries with these spikes. Well I don't know how able I am to build it at the moment but I am curious. I am sort of amateur at this...I see the four stator coils--am I looking at roughly the right picture here:



Is the rotor modified or rewound at all and are you trying to play with the on time of the stator coils and the rotor coils? Are you trying to do recovery on the rotor and stator? Are the opposite stator coils wired in series? The arrows are the magnetic coupling I suppose? Does that mean you are trying have only an attraction turn the rotor?

By transformer action. do you mean that because of the different wire gauges of rotor and stator the magnetic field of one induces a current at a higher voltage lower current in the other? I'm trying to think what this would do, in the motor I'm working with, a higher voltage makes it run faster.

Capacitors are much less efficient than batteries with only a 50% charge efficiency when compared to 75 - 80% with a battery. Pulse charging does improve this a little as it does with a battery. Its better yo use the power directly if it is possible.

I did not know that, thanks.

[mbrownn]

Sorry for the late reply.

its not just a peek, I want you to build it, ask me and i will tell you.

Charging and discharging at the same time, in my experience, causes the plates to break up.

Capacitors are much less efficient than batteries with only a 50% charge efficiency when compared to 75 - 80% with a battery. Pulse charging does improve this a little as it does with a battery. Its better yo use the power directly if it is possible.

[Blargus]

Thanks mbrown, lots to consider. Yes I think that the small dips in voltage is the motor's "on time" if I'm using that term correctly. Hm, I will look again, maybe there are four different sizes of spike...I'd not thought of that. There are two slight carbon spots right around the beginning and end of each of the three connected armature segments, so maybe that's in line with what you said?

I've been looking at these sorts of diodes called "avalanche diodes" or "transient voltage suppression diodes" that are supposed to limit the spikes. I don't know that these transients going into the charge battery even in the positive (charging?) direction are good, as Dr.L says that batteries don't like to be charged and used at the same time. I also sometimes get an 80+volts multimeter reading on the charge side which makes me a bit concerned. But if this is a beneficial part of the motor (I.e an output), I also don't want to nix it for no reason. The way it's supposed to go eventually involves big capacitors in which the run and recovery appear to both go through, and if I could filter out the negative spikes then the run and recovery side spikes might both get stored in the capacitors?

Thanks for the peek at your motor. Amateur guess you're doing lots of timing stuff?

Really appreciate the thoughts/help

Mike

[mbrownn]

What I have been doing is somewhat different to mats work and I don't really want to comment on that because what he did and what I am doing is very different.

If you have four coils setup like mats drawing, you don't have to worry about coil shorting.

I never put a diode on the armature as I did not find it necessary but again my setup is very different.

Going back to your scope shots, the lower image shows a regular small drop in voltage, I would assume that this is when the brushes connect with the segments. All the transients that you see are likely caused by interactions between the coils as they connect and disconnect. As I have said before there are many complex interactions between the coils on an armature.These coils, I assume, are not interconnected so as one coil connects or disconnects from the supply the transient will also appear in the other coils.

Much of what I am about to say is pure guesswork so there is no guarantee that this is correct.

If there are recovery brushes connected to the other coils, this transient can be collected there. If a diode is in the recovery circuit then the transient can be collected in one direction but not in the other. The transient that is not collected will appear in all the other coils.

Not sure about the terminology but I will call it a reflected transient. This is momentarily stored voltage which will discharge when it gets the chance and maybe this is what you are seeing. The reason that they are not regular in their timing may be because of small differences in the commutator/brush arrangement.

I say this because there appears to be four different sizes of transient which would fit in with four coils.

Normally we do not see a transient as we connect the power but through a transformer action in the coils it may become visible. Maybe this is the reason for both positive and negative transients.

As I have said in my motors I do not have diodes and I get a build up of voltage in the armature. Hiwater has experienced a lot of arcing on his commutator suggesting very big voltages.

The motors we are using are actually delco remy generators or similar. They have field coils and not magnets. The transformer actions are very complex. They are motors that have little BEMF in the motor field coils but these coils cause no torque. The torque and BEMF appears in the generator coils which are in the same housing. The motor accelerates under load because of transformer action.

I suppose you cannot call them motors as they are rotary transformers. We should not use the term "motor field coil" we should use the term "energizer coil" the generator field coils are also the secondaries on the transformer.

The attached image should give you a clue as to what I am doing

[Blargus]

that do you mean by three segment groups? maybe a sketch would help

By the way thanks for posting your scope shot, any information like this is scarce.

No problem, thanks for the help, I'm very happy to be working on this. This is part of a schematic Matthew Jones sent me showing the commutator and brush setup, I hope its okay with Matthew Jones to post, if not let me know.

Mike

[mbrownn]

that do you mean by three segment groups? maybe a sketch would help

By the way thanks for posting your scope shot, any information like this is scarce.

[Blargus]

Difficult to give a good interpretation without knowing exactly about the windings and timing of the brushes. Placing a diode in the charging line should eliminate those reverse polarity spikes.

How many of the segments on the commutator do you have coils on?

Do your brushes short the coils at any time?

The actions of coils on an armature can be very complex.

Hi mbrownn,

Three commutator segments are connected together and attached to each end of the coil, the three segment groups are opposite each other. There are only two ends of one coil that goes through four slots in the zig zag pattern. I don't think the brushes ever short the coils. The recovery set of brushes I think are exactly three commutator segments from the power brushes at 90 degrees.

Could you be more specific about the diode on the charging line? I tried a diode on clip leads on all four battery terminals still the spikes even with ultra fast diodes.

It seems pretty powerful for less than 200 mA

Thanks,
Mike

[mbrownn]

Difficult to give a good interpretation without knowing exactly about the windings and timing of the brushes. Placing a diode in the charging line should eliminate those reverse polarity spikes.

How many of the segments on the commutator do you have coils on?

Do your brushes short the coils at any time?

The actions of coils on an armature can be very complex.

[Blargus]

Hi,

I rewound my MY1016 scooter motor with 24AWG, was wondering if someone could help me interpret the oscilloscope and meter behavior (I know there might not be a simple answer). I'm pretty amateur at this, I am putting the o-scope ground on neg of batteries and tip on positive, hope that's right or I am .

The circuit is the zig-zag wound 4-pole scooter motor with internal blocking diode so there's one pulse per revolution, recovery brushes go to diode bridge which goes into 3 12V batteries in series, another 3 12V batteries in series goes to run brushes.

I've only been running it at 37.7V (trying to get eventually to 72V) and the meter on the run batteries reads anywhere from 36-51V while its running and the charge batteries start at 37.5 and go down roughly to 37.0V(some slight jumping around). Sometimes when I load the motor, the run battery voltage jumps up to 70-80V (maybe to do with the amp draw also increasing as loaded). But sometimes it is more composed and the run battery voltage when loaded only jumps to 40 or 50V and doesn't jump around as much when unloaded. It seems to go in cycles, after a few minutes it jumps up in voltage then seems to calm down a bit. The charge batteries don't seem to have much change, just a overall lowering of voltage (.5V so far). I've only run it for 10 minutes or so at a time, afterwards the voltage on the batteries goes back to the start voltage after a couple mins (can only see to the tenths with meter). It's sort of the opposite of what I expected but I think it's pretty cool.

Anyway, these look like radiant spikes---wondering if there's a way to block one polarity ie: the one that doesn't charge the battery? It doesn't seem to behave as simply as "spikes go to recovery" at least at this voltage, but it's very interesting! It's not helping me get to bed any earlier.

To/from charge battery:


From/to run battery:


Thanks Matthew Jones, Dr.L and everyone,

Mike