Liquid nitrogen engine

[HiggsBoson]

If liquid nitrogen is injected into a cylinder with a piston or diaphragm and heated the liquid would expand to a gas, push down the piston/diaphragm. Anyone who has used liquid nitrogen would appreciate the force generated by expanding liquid nitro.
The vapour would then have to be recycled and condensed back to a liquid to begin the expansion cycle again.
Would the process of condensing take more energy than the original expansion cycle produced or could this cycle perpetuate on a diminishing output until it would have to be recharged/refrozen ?
If it could be proven to work would the refreezing/recharging process consume more energy than the device would generate before a refreeze ?

[tutanka]

If liquid nitrogen is injected into a cylinder with a piston or diaphragm and heated the liquid would expand to a gas, push down the piston/diaphragm. Anyone who has used liquid nitrogen would appreciate the force generated by expanding liquid nitro.
The vapour would then have to be recycled and condensed back to a liquid to begin the expansion cycle again.
Would the process of condensing take more energy than the original expansion cycle produced or could this cycle perpetuate on a diminishing output until it would have to be recharged/refrozen ?
If it could be proven to work would the refreezing/recharging process consume more energy than the device would generate before a refreeze ?

You need explosive mixture if you want power from your engine, you need explosion not only an simple expansion of gas. Regards

[1NRG24Seven]

You need explosive mixture if you want power from your engine, you need explosion not only an simple expansion of gas. Regards

Tutanka, Do compressed gas engines need explosive gas to work?...and if not why would this one?....24

[HiggsBoson]

Try putting a small amount of liquid nitro in a plastic bottle screw the lid on and stand back.
Tape it up with electrical tape or duct tape if you want a really good explosion.
You will be amazed, it will make freon seem like a joke.
What is an explosion if not a rapid expansion of gas ?

[1NRG24Seven]

Higgs to energetic forums.

Your on the right track here, now look at Tesla's patents for his reciprocating engine and his Turbine in which he mentions air being turned into "rariified" air or liquid air such as liquid oxygen and nitrogen. On his turbine by compressing air then removing the heat and doing same through subsequent stages one would eventually have a liquid air exhaust much more effeciently then by any other means in the prior art. I believe one could do just that using just 5hp off an internal combustion motor to make its own liquid air to run off of with the correct CFM Turbine to convert that CFM into a highly condenced air in the form of liquid air. Once injected into an engine it would then rapidly expand if injected right before top dead center to create the heat needed to expand it back to its original volume in a microsecond. So I do believe its possible to run the internal combustion engine on nothing but air using a 4 stage turbine the size of a common auto alternator.

Good day!!...24

[phoneboy]

You would probably do better with a derivative of nitrogen, amonia. A while back I remember reading about some folks at MIT that were powering a turbine off of compressed amonia gas, they heated the compressed gas, fed it into the turbine and in the production of work by the turbine the gas cooled to below freezing (water). Envisioned this as a great way to extract energy from the exhaust heat on a hybrid car with a small multi stage tesla turbine for electric/ac/intercooling intake air.

[rickoff]

You need explosive mixture if you want power from your engine, you need explosion not only an simple expansion of gas. Regards

That's not qute correct, Tutanka. First of all, gasoline engines use a mixture of gasoline and atmoshpheric air, which does not explode when ignited. It only burns rapidly (and not as rapidly as other flammable substances) while producing an expanding gaseous column. Secondly, the conversion of liquid Nitrogen to its gaseous state is not at all a "simple expansion." When so converted, the gas rapidly expands to a volume of 694 times that of its liquid state. Furthermore, a relatively small change in temperature is all that is required to change state from liquid to gas, or back to a liquid again. At atmospheric pressure, Nitrogen will boil to its gaseous state at -196 degrees celsius, while it will freeze to a solid if cooled just 14 more degrees. Best of all, pressurization is not necessary for storing liquid Nitrogen, although pressure can be added when required to maintain the liquid state. The only requirement for storage and transport of LN2 is use of a suitably insulated Dewar container. Surely anyone would recognize the possibilities for use of Nitrogen or Nitrogen derivatives in an ICE or turbine if proper consideration is given as to the properties of Nitrogen.

Rick

[HiggsBoson]

Thanks everyone I've had this idea for years but most people I've mentioned it to have shrugged thier shoulders and said something like " I dunno"

It's good to get a bit of intelligent feedback.
I have a background in mechanical engineering and refrigeration so I know it is a viable idea but as rickoff stated the key seems to be the fine control of the critical temps.
I talked about a piston type engine to begin the discussion but a rotary or turbine type engine would certainly be more efficient.

I have also had an idea of freezing a piece of metal with LN and having it connected to a levered mechanism to transmit the force as the metal returns to room temp.
Frozen metal shrinks (per inch) from around 1.8 thousandths of an inch up to about 4.5 thou for magnesium.
A hard enough piece of metal ie steel alloy could develop many tonnes(even in the hundreds or thousands) of force without much distortion as it thaws albeit over a very short distance.(I'm just using tonnes to keep it simple)
The device could have an automatic adjuster to remove backlash and almost all the expansion force could be harnessed and then multiplied in distance moved with a system of levers. There would be a loss of force but some mean could be arrived at producing a usable force over a good range.
Would the energy consumed generating the LN exceed the energy produced by this pie in the sky ?
Any ideas, criticism ?
I'm just happy to finally have someone to bounce ideas off.

[tutanka]

That's not qute correct, Tutanka. First of all, gasoline engines use a mixture of gasoline and atmoshpheric air, which does not explode when ignited. It only burns rapidly (and not as rapidly as other flammable substances) while producing an expanding gaseous column. Secondly, the conversion of liquid Nitrogen to its gaseous state is not at all a "simple expansion." When so converted, the gas rapidly expands to a volume of 694 times that of its liquid state. Furthermore, a relatively small change in temperature is all that is required to change state from liquid to gas, or back to a liquid again. At atmospheric pressure, Nitrogen will boil to its gaseous state at -196 degrees celsius, while it will freeze to a solid if cooled just 14 more degrees. Best of all, pressurization is not necessary for storing liquid Nitrogen, although pressure can be added when required to maintain the liquid state. The only requirement for storage and transport of LN2 is use of a suitably insulated Dewar container. Surely anyone would recognize the possibilities for use of Nitrogen or Nitrogen derivatives in an ICE or turbine if proper consideration is given as to the properties of Nitrogen.

Rick

I'm impressed.. you need also an truck for transport the big tank needed for stock LN2. Sorry but an mixture compressed of gasoline and abundance of air explode with activation energy of spark plug...you don't obtain only an exothermic reaction..

[rickoff]

I'm impressed.. you need also an truck for transport the big tank needed for stock LN2. Sorry but an mixture compressed of gasoline and abundance of air explode with activation energy of spark plug...you don't obtain only an exothermic reaction..

Strange that you seem to find anyone else's point of view so hilarious. While you are rolling around on the floor, tut, you might consider this:
1. In a truly efficient LN2 system, a large tank would not be necessary. None of the Nitrogen would be wasted to the atmosphere. All would be recovered and returned to the Dewar container for reuse over and over, which means that a relatively small container would be sufficient.
2. The spark plug of an ICE provides an ignition source to enable the gasoline/air mixture to burn, but not explode. I know that a great many people consider this to be an explosion, but it is simply a rapid burning - and not all that rapid at that. Gasoline engines are notoriously poor at burning fuel, and this results in a relatively slow and incomplete burn. The slowness of the burn is the reason why the spark timing must be advanced several degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke, and this slowness results in much of the fuel being exhausted from the cylinder before it has a chance to burn. That unburned fuel is then wastefully burned in the catalytic converter. A true explosion, such as produced by gunpowder or TNT, requires a high velocity reaction, and this rapidity of reaction is what distinguishes an explosion reaction from a combustion reaction. Referring to an ignited gasoline/air mixture in an ICE as an explosion is a misnomer, just as is the often used reference of "motor" when referring to a gas engine. Just because millions of people use that term does not make it correct. Notice that the acronym ICE stands for Internal Combustion Engine, not Internal Explosion Engine. There's a difference, and the ICE was properly named.

Rick

[tutanka]

Strange that you seem to find anyone else's point of view so hilarious. While you are rolling around on the floor, tut, you might consider this:
1. In a truly efficient LN2 system, a large tank would not be necessary. None of the Nitrogen would be wasted to the atmosphere. All would be recovered and returned to the Dewar container for reuse over and over, which means that a relatively small container would be sufficient.
2. The spark plug of an ICE provides an ignition source to enable the gasoline/air mixture to burn, but not explode. I know that a great many people consider this to be an explosion, but it is simply a rapid burning - and not all that rapid at that. Gasoline engines are notoriously poor at burning fuel, and this results in a relatively slow and incomplete burn. The slowness of the burn is the reason why the spark timing must be advanced several degrees before top dead center on the compression stroke, and this slowness results in much of the fuel being exhausted from the cylinder before it has a chance to burn. That unburned fuel is then wastefully burned in the catalytic converter. A true explosion, such as produced by gunpowder or TNT, requires a high velocity reaction, and this rapidity of reaction is what distinguishes an explosion reaction from a combustion reaction. Referring to an ignited gasoline/air mixture in an ICE as an explosion is a misnomer, just as is the often used reference of "motor" when referring to a gas engine. Just because millions of people use that term does not make it correct. Notice that the acronym ICE stands for Internal Combustion Engine, not Internal Explosion Engine. There's a difference, and the ICE was properly named.

Rick

Rick.. probably LN2 can be reused BUT MUST BE FILTERED and .. what is the cost for cryogenic Dewar container and maintenance?? My suggestion is that you have think more simple.. however standard engines works for an combustion/explosion reaction inside chambre of combustion.. of course we don't use TNT but only gasoline and air in that way you have moderate explosion.. about timing.. is true that gasoline have large molecules and you need spark timing advanced some degree for burn that but..... if you ionize air and create neutral ions reaction inside chambre of combustion is more fast.. that is possible because nitrogen contained into air is an inert gas and in fact an dielectric.. when air is ionized and neutral ions are formed air appear as conductive and all reaction inside chambre is accelerated.. that is new input gift..

[RonL]

Thanks everyone I've had this idea for years but most people I've mentioned it to have shrugged thier shoulders and said something like " I dunno"

It's good to get a bit of intelligent feedback.
I have a background in mechanical engineering and refrigeration so I know it is a viable idea but as rickoff stated the key seems to be the fine control of the critical temps.
I talked about a piston type engine to begin the discussion but a rotary or turbine type engine would certainly be more efficient.

I have also had an idea of freezing a piece of metal with LN and having it connected to a levered mechanism to transmit the force as the metal returns to room temp.
Frozen metal shrinks (per inch) from around 1.8 thousandths of an inch up to about 4.5 thou for magnesium.
A hard enough piece of metal ie steel alloy could develop many tonnes(even in the hundreds or thousands) of force without much distortion as it thaws albeit over a very short distance.(I'm just using tonnes to keep it simple)
The device could have an automatic adjuster to remove backlash and almost all the expansion force could be harnessed and then multiplied in distance moved with a system of levers. There would be a loss of force but some mean could be arrived at producing a usable force over a good range.
Would the energy consumed generating the LN exceed the energy produced by this pie in the sky ?
Any ideas, criticism ?
I'm just happy to finally have someone to bounce ideas off.

I know exactly how you feel and what you are saying, I have thrown out some thoughts on other forums and received the same automatic rejection or in most cases no comments at all.
I have settled on propane as liquid of choice, as it will perform the same action and it is much less of a pressure risk.

I'll add some more information later, when I have some time.

Ron

[rickoff]

Rick.. probably LN2 can be reused BUT MUST BE FILTERED and .. what is the cost for cryogenic Dewar container and maintenance?? My suggestion is that you have think more simple..

Understand that I am not advocating the use of LN2 for an all Nitrogen engine or turbine. I am only saying that it is indeed possible. Because of the safety issues concerning LN2, which are due to the very narrow temperature range that must be maintained at all times, it would be foolhardy to attemp this under anything other than continuously monitored and strictly controlled laboratory conditions. I would agree that there are far more simple approaches that are much safer.

however standard engines works for an combustion/explosion reaction inside chambre of combustion.. of course we don't use TNT but only gasoline and air in that way you have moderate explosion..

On that point we will have to disagree, and I don't mind that. You can call it a "moderate explosion," and I'll call it "moderately rapid combustion." In the end, that won't change the actual effect, which is slow to moderate at best under normal circumstances.

about timing.. is true that gasoline have large molecules and you need spark timing advanced some degree for burn that but..... if you ionize air and create neutral ions reaction inside chambre of combustion is more fast.. that is possible because nitrogen contained into air is an inert gas and in fact an dielectric.. when air is ionized and neutral ions are formed air appear as conductive and all reaction inside chambre is accelerated.. that is new input gift..

I fully agree that there are many ways that a gasoline/air fuel mix can be enhanced to promote a more complete and rapid burn that does, in fact, approach the qualities of a true explosion. And I do realize that air is about 80 percent Nitrogen, and that ionization of air entering the combustion chamber can definitely promote a more efficient burn. These are widely known and accepted facts. What I don't quite understand is what this "input gift" is that you speak of. Perhaps you could elaborate on that.

Best regards,

Rick

[HiggsBoson]

There seems to be a pattern emerging here.
Has anyone else noticed ?
A lot of these threads degenerate into a clash of egos with both sides trying win.
Maybe this is why we are stuck on a rock that is rapidly approaching crisis point. Not so much the not enough space as not enough space for the superior egos.
Maybe if we could look for ways to find an accord rather than ways to disagree we would all benefit.
Debate over details is fine but if no practical model exists to refine and perfect, it is just negative and detracts from any possible advancement.
Instead of being right how about a bit of humility.
All these arguments presented with phrases that are definite are just representations of a current paradigm – the world is flat, celestial spheres etc. and leaves little room for innovation and advancement.
All I see here is institutional thinking characterised by naysayers and 1 up-men. (scientist logic)
If Tesla had listened to that sort of reasoning we would all be sitting in the dark listening to Grandad play polka on his piano accordion.
Thanks to the few humble ones that contributed in a positive way. You know who you are.

[rickoff]

There seems to be a pattern emerging here.
Has anyone else noticed ? A lot of these threads degenerate into a clash of egos with both sides trying win.

Sorry if it seemed that way, Higgs. I started out by correcting two misconceptions, and offering some facts about LN2 that would lend credence to your ideas, but then got sidetracked into further discourse with tutanka. I had no plans to carry that on any further, as I felt enough had already been said for everyone to draw their own conclusions.

As I said, your idea has validity. The greatest concern would be the safety factor, wherein the stored LN2 could reach critical temperature of expansion within the Dewar container and rupture it with tremendous force. It is imperative that pressure relief valving be employed in a failsafe manner to prevent that from happening. Also, in a system not constantly in operation, such as an automobile engine, it would be best to have an auxilliary compressor replenish the LN2 just before use. While in use, only very small releases of LN2 to the engine or turbine would be needed, and it would be relatively easy for the pressure and temperature within the Dewar container to be maintained within the appropriate range by using proper controls. Reportedly, there have been successful adaptations. One of these was by a Lee Rogers (no longer living), who used LN2 for system startup, and after the engine revved to over 2,000 rpm the system switched to simple self-sustained compressed air. Four air tanks were utilized - a main tank, and three reserve tanks. These were said to have been pressurized to 500 psi with a compressor driven by the engine. It is said that at highway speeds the compressor could produce more compressed air than the engine required. Here's a link to the patent that Rogers was able to obtain in 1981:
4-cycle Air Engine Compresses Air with Air

More info on the Lee Rogers system can be found here:
Rogers Airmotor - 10/27/95 - KeelyNet

And here, along with several other air engine adaptations by other experimenters:
Compressed Air

Hope that helps.
Best 2 U,

Rick