Donald Smith Devices too good to be true

[abdlquadri]

jeofr clarification

To confirm most of your input is lesser than 60W while your load is 60W.

What is the input voltage to primary.

Also I cant see a spark gap in the setup.

Thanks

[joefr]

Hi Duncan Thanks I hope I get new scope soon to continue testing

Hi Abdlquadri I hope to that more people will start working on practical stuff and show some practical results too
The input voltage is 25volts to primary LC
Yes there is no spark gap in this setup yet, because I want to try with low voltages so I can measure the input output without danger if I touch something .
But here is the video vith spark gap:
Don Smith Zilano Test 1 - YouTube

JoeFR

[Patrick Kelly]

Kapanadze spark-gap

When a tank circuit is in resonance, the input impedance should be extremely high, like an open circuit. If I see a spark gap firing constantly into a tank circuit, that would lead me to believe that the circuit is not resonant. Watching Kapandze demonstrations, the SG fires very little and at a very low frequency. I'm thinking that the SG only provides energy when the circuit goes out of resonance.

When TK presses the button to start his system, I think this is used to supply the tank circuit it's initial energy (the SG is temporarily bypassed) and then the SG supplies enough energy to keep the tank circuit in balance. I noticed the frequency of the SG changes as more or less load is placed on the system.

Hi,

It is probably not safe to deduce anything from the spark gap on the green box in Kapanadze's demonstration as he has stated that it is a fake intended to distract people and that there are two 'working' spark gaps inside the box, forming part of the real circuit.

Patrick

[JohnStone]

...
... I made many test at different input frequency from Signal Generator to Primary LC and measure the output voltage on secondary LC.
I made measures without load on secondary LC and with Load 12V 60W car bulb connected via diode.....

.....
I am waiting for lux meter to make accurate output measurements of the car light output. My scope died during testing so some data are missing and I cant show any scope shots for now because I am waiting for replacement.
JoeFR

WOW! experiment with thorough measurements. That's where I will arrive soon. I will study your figures ASAP. Thanks for sharing!!!!

Just two hints:
1.
Please - @all - give your lab record files an index in order to have clear reference later on. i.e." joefr_2012-02-11_Don Smith - Frequency Testing.zip"

2.
LUX measurements are not reliable and give no reference if used in hands free mode: environmental light, distance (decay with square of distance), view angle ...
I found to work best if I use a tube with white paper inside and set a cone on top (i.e. chopped funnel) for LUX sensor adaption. Do not use Al foil inside because of sharp reflections.
You need to calibrate every individual bulb by measurement series because they show very differnt performance.

Please note that my jig is made of transparent tube with white photo paper inside and the AL foil outside is for protecting from environmental light only.
rgds John

[boguslaw]

Hi,

It is probably not safe to deduce anything from the spark gap on the green box in Kapanadze's demonstration as he has stated that it is a fake intended to distract people and that there are two 'working' spark gaps inside the box, forming part of the real circuit.

Patrick

I don't think so...Analyzing spark gap in 2004 video can really shed a new light to the role of it in device. Especially if somebody accept that there were very close replications (both self-running but smaller power) where spark gap role is known.
I'm talking about SR913 ,delamorto and device shown to stiveip who visited Kapanadze in Georgia.

[Slovenia]

Thanks!!

Thanks for sharing your experiment details!!

Hi all

For better understanding Don Smith-Zilano Reverse Tesla coil concept I made many test at different input frequency from Signal Generator to Primary LC and measure the output voltage on secondary LC.
I made measures without load on secondary LC and with Load 12V 60W car bulb connected via diode.

For no load testing I put 1kohm resistor between Signal Generator and primary LC and measure the maximum sine wave peak to peak output voltage on secondary LC at different input frequency and different primary LC Cap values.

Here is the circuit schematic I used for testing with load connected. I used optical isolated mosfet driver ACPL3130 to drive 250V 15A N channel mosfet.
In this configuration I measured positive peak voltage and input power on Primary LC and measure positive peak voltage across load 12V 60W car bulb.
I noticed that without diode on primary LC i get very poor output on secondary LC so Diode on primary LC is important part in Don Smith-Zilano setup.

I am waiting for lux meter to make accurate output measurements of the car light output. My scope died during testing so some data are missing and I cant show any scope shots for now because I am waiting for replacement.

JoeFR

[JohnStone]

Hi Joefr,
studying your setup being very nice I'd like to recomend some improvements:
1.
I recomend to make GND leads much more thicker. When a pulse begins you have in the first moment a full short circuit via the capacitor on L1. So you will have a lot of current in ns or µs range. This increases the GND voltage at FET and you might have no reliable results. As you pulse not synchronously with the oscillations this initial condition can get worse depending on the charge condition in this very moment.

2.
If you measure with your scope at same time input and output you have them connected (primary secondary) at ground level. In this setup it will not be a problem but you might want to keep GNDs apart for future measurements.

3.
Sorry for killed scope!
If you do not earth the GND connections of your probes (usually 4mm connection jack) you might shoot your PSU inside the scope. Same problem if you have some intermediant GND contact problems.
Apart from this I would recommend to get two 4 KV probes and if possible run your scope from a lead acid battery in order to prevent any ground implications.

4.
- You have in your FET driver an additional electrolitic capcitor (missing in schematic) that is good!
- But it works with thick GNDs only.
- If you intend to improve the power blocking you can add 10nF, 1µF in parallel. Every grade of capacitor performs in different frequency areas and they have self resonance as well. At self resonance they do all weired things but giving charge on demand.
If you add a cascade of different values in parallel you will have a good blocking and a good reservoir of charge in order to supply your driver with any sudden charge request. And it needs at switch on several amps in order to supply the gate capacitance of your FET.
This hint is valid for all our semiconductor circuits. Please keep in mind that we dowse them with all kinds of HF up to GHz in case of spark. And we do not want to play roulett with our circuits.

5.
You might use these screw terminals from mains installation (see my last pic / foreground). This is a size where I can plug in the normal lab connectors (10 mm2 gauge) and I can fasten them if necessary. Keep leads short!

6.
Your Watt meter 130A is avery precise one. But they do not say anything about the frequency of readings. So you will get very accurate readings mostly but at certain frequencies you will get very high or very low readings because of the beat frequency (measure rate vs. your pulse rate). It is fully ok using this meter but you need to be aware or test it out where the critical frequencies are (with different resistor loads and frequencies). In that critical cases you might want to add a choke after the meter.


Please understand my hints not as nagging - not at all! Your setup is fully ok (apart from diameter of ground lines). But we ALL need to learn preempting implications and we ALL need to know what we ar doing.
In these kind of circuits we have no DC and no LF only! The pulse transisitons of every kind are HF! And it might be essential to have steep pulses and no GND rise along with all sort of implications. The implications might not be measurable with our standard scopes - and in no case if several kilovolts occure.
Imagine our circuits like a mesh wire built out of rubber threads and weights hanging there. All matter there is oscillating with random interaction. I pointed out some rules in order to keep your "mesh fence" a bit quiescent.
rgds John

[RAMSET]

keeping it simple

I still like heating water to get a good idea on watts happening.

put your bulb in a cup of water normally powered [keep the connections out of the water.

measure start temp heat for as long as you want measure the time and stop temp.
now do the same thing with your device running the bulb.
compare notes ..........

Thx
Chet

[nightwind]

Thanks John & Patrick

I've read some of Utkin, all of my comments are based on my limited observation of how TKs device "behaves" without having instrument readings.
1: The SG is low frequency & intensity. You can almost count the sparks. I would expect that behavior from a OU circuit (it doesn't need to be fed all of the time). No doubt he could have hidden other SGs somewhere else. If the visible SG was a decoy, then why does it change frequency when the load changes and why would TK admit this is a decoy? Why didn't he just hide all the SGs and not admit anything? You could be right.
2: I have no clue how the earth ground fits in unless it is used as a reference for two independent circuits -or- some Teslian ether component at work – or- it is a decoy, which I doubt.
3: At startup, TK uses a normally open contact switch to start the process. Start voltage is always removed; would this interfere with the "run" cycle if left connected? In my opinion, the start voltage must be removed or it would interfere with LC field timing. Like a starter would interfere with a automobile engine if left running.
4: A strong low level magnestrictive hum is heard and then the sound quickly fades away. Very similar to the shorting of a transformer secondary winding -or- a stalled electric motor. I'm guessing that he is charging-up a inductive field when he presses the start button.
5. When more lights(resistive) are added , you hear the same inductive hum again. I believe at that moment, the circuit is out of resonance and his circuit instantly senses this and changes a parameter(frequency?) to bring the circuit back into resonance with the new loading. TK always knows what the load is and the device is already sized for it
6: It can be started under full or partial loading (impressive). All loading is resistive in nature, I haven't seen the device run motors. I’ve never seen him start the device and then turn on the load.
7: Speculation - the device is started at full power output and his circuit keeps the resonance in balance (by maintaining resonant frequency?) between the primary & secondary circuit. Based on that premise, the input power required would barely change between heavy or light loading. A 100W or 2KW load would require the same range of input power for the device to operate. Obviously the COP would drop rapidly on a smaller load.

TK & Smith’s devices have some type of shortcoming that we are not aware of. Neither device is in the commercial market and none of us know why, at least I don’t. None of Smith’s predictions came true about Japan & Russia selling them. TK has had more than enough time to get this out. The Turkish video shows a larger scale. Maybe the run cycle is limited before it eventually collapses, hidden radiation, or heavy RF shielding is needed . I doubt MIB, because the greed to sell this would overwhelm the greed to stop it. Who knows…
My conjecture could be all BS, just wanted to throw that stuff out. Call me crazy

[joefr]

Don Smith-ZILANO Reverse Tesla Coil Frequency response testing

Hi JonhStone Thanks for tips

1.
I recomend to make GND leads much more thicker. When a pulse begins you have in the first moment a full short circuit via the capacitor on L1. So you will have a lot of current in ns or µs range. This increases the GND voltage at FET and you might have no reliable results. As you pulse not synchronously with the oscillations this initial condition can get worse depending on the charge condition in this very moment.
OK I will put more heavy gauge wire for GND I have some 3-4 mm diameter stranded wire.

2.
If you measure with your scope at same time input and output you have them connected (primary secondary) at ground level. In this setup it will not be a problem but you might want to keep GNDs apart for future measurements.
Yes I know that primary LC and secondary LC are connected through scope ground. I tried disconnecting the primary LC scope probe and I notice no difference in light bulb output and the same was when I removed the secondary LC scope probe.

3.
Sorry for killed scope!
If you do not earth the GND connections of your probes (usually 4mm connection jack) you might shoot your PSU inside the scope. Same problem if you have some intermediant GND contact problems.
Apart from this I would recommend to get two 4 KV probes and if possible run your scope from a lead acid battery in order to prevent any ground implications.
Yes this is the next step to isolate new scope when it arrives from China.
And I will buy two HV probes to prolong scope life

4.
- You have in your FET driver an additional electrolitic capcitor (missing in schematic) that is good!
- But it works with thick GNDs only.
- If you intend to improve the power blocking you can add 10nF, 1µF in parallel. Every grade of capacitor performs in different frequency areas and they have self resonance as well. At self resonance they do all weired things but giving charge on demand.
If you add a cascade of different values in parallel you will have a good blocking and a good reservoir of charge in order to supply your driver with any sudden charge request. And it needs at switch on several amps in order to supply the gate capacitance of your FET.
This hint is valid for all our semiconductor circuits. Please keep in mind that we dowse them with all kinds of HF up to GHz in case of spark. And we do not want to play roulett with our circuits.
I will correct schematic because I forgot to add this electrolitic capacitor 2200uF 50V.
This cap is across ACPL mosfet driver power leads to consume spikes. I killed many mosfet drivers because I did not put blocking cap between power lead.

6.
Your Watt meter 130A is avery precise one. But they do not say anything about the frequency of readings. So you will get very accurate readings mostly but at certain frequencies you will get very high or very low readings because of the beat frequency (measure rate vs. your pulse rate). It is fully ok using this meter but you need to be aware or test it out where the critical frequencies are (with different resistor loads and frequencies). In that critical cases you might want to add a choke after the meter.
The two smoothing Capacitors helped a lot and the numbers on WATT meter dont jump up and down anymore so I can make steady reading.
As you can see from data, positive spikes in primary LC are very high at some input frequencys over 300volts.

I noticed that with this setup I get better and more stable output without flickering on the light bulb, than with spark gap and HV NeonSign transformer.

I am thinking to upper the voltage input voltage in Primary LC to maybe 50V or even 100V to see the if I can get better input output ratio.

JoeFR

[joefr]

Hi Chet thanks for additional tip

I will first make black box with lux probe like Jean-Louis Naudin did in Kapagen test. When you make tests like this I made, you need fast reading of output power. When you found best output for minimum input then you can make water heating output power test like you suggested to confirm the fast result.

JoeFR

[boguslaw]

I've read some of Utkin, all of my comments are based on my limited observation of how TKs device "behaves" without having instrument readings.
1: The SG is low frequency & intensity. You can almost count the sparks. I would expect that behavior from a OU circuit (it doesn't need to be fed all of the time). No doubt he could have hidden other SGs somewhere else. If the visible SG was a decoy, then why does it change frequency when the load changes and why would TK admit this is a decoy? Why didn't he just hide all the SGs and not admit anything? You could be right.
2: I have no clue how the earth ground fits in unless it is used as a reference for two independent circuits -or- some Teslian ether component at work – or- it is a decoy, which I doubt.
3: At startup, TK uses a normally open contact switch to start the process. Start voltage is always removed; would this interfere with the "run" cycle if left connected? In my opinion, the start voltage must be removed or it would interfere with LC field timing. Like a starter would interfere with a automobile engine if left running.
4: A strong low level magnestrictive hum is heard and then the sound quickly fades away. Very similar to the shorting of a transformer secondary winding -or- a stalled electric motor. I'm guessing that he is charging-up a inductive field when he presses the start button.
5. When more lights(resistive) are added , you hear the same inductive hum again. I believe at that moment, the circuit is out of resonance and his circuit instantly senses this and changes a parameter(frequency?) to bring the circuit back into resonance with the new loading. TK always knows what the load is and the device is already sized for it
6: It can be started under full or partial loading (impressive). All loading is resistive in nature, I haven't seen the device run motors. I’ve never seen him start the device and then turn on the load.
7: Speculation - the device is started at full power output and his circuit keeps the resonance in balance (by maintaining resonant frequency?) between the primary & secondary circuit. Based on that premise, the input power required would barely change between heavy or light loading. A 100W or 2KW load would require the same range of input power for the device to operate. Obviously the COP would drop rapidly on a smaller load.

TK & Smith’s devices have some type of shortcoming that we are not aware of. Neither device is in the commercial market and none of us know why, at least I don’t. None of Smith’s predictions came true about Japan & Russia selling them. TK has had more than enough time to get this out. The Turkish video shows a larger scale. Maybe the run cycle is limited before it eventually collapses, hidden radiation, or heavy RF shielding is needed . I doubt MIB, because the greed to sell this would overwhelm the greed to stop it. Who knows…
My conjecture could be all BS, just wanted to throw that stuff out. Call me crazy

Very good ideas !

I think one thing we can take as an axiom : the output is always MAX no matter what load is attached (and at least one must be there or device would destroy itself as Tariel said in one of available online videos). This is the crucial tip and also a limitation of device. T become convinced watch "clear box" video ! there is an experiment in this video when two banks of bulbs were turned on/off without voltage drop.

Think about the consequence of it.


Now the very special case of silent spark. I thought about that for a long time very long time and the silence of spark and I found only two explanations : one simple and one probable.
It is probable that with correct very stable and precise resonant matching spark is silent because occur in precise timing. The simple explanation is opposite : spark is silent because it has very low energy (like small air ozonator spark : just a 1-5kV very low power and frequency). Again think about those two opposite explanations and tell me what conclusion can you draw from them ? I'm all ears

[nightwind]

Hidden SG

Very good ideas !

I think one thing we can take as an axiom : the output is always MAX no matter what load is attached (and at least one must be there or device would destroy itself as Tariel said in one of available online videos). This is the crucial tip and also a limitation of device. T become convinced watch "clear box" video ! there is an experiment in this video when two banks of bulbs were turned on/off without voltage drop.

Think about the consequence of it.


Now the very special case of silent spark. I thought about that for a long time very long time and the silence of spark and I found only two explanations : one simple and one probable.
It is probable that with correct very stable and precise resonant matching spark is silent because occur in precise timing. The simple explanation is opposite : spark is silent because it has very low energy (like small air ozonator spark : just a 1-5kV very low power and frequency). Again think about those two opposite explanations and tell me what conclusion can you draw from them ? I'm all ears

I honestly have no idea about the hidden or silent SG and it's properties. If I can't see it or hear it, it doesn't exist in my mind.
I only wish that I could translate TK words and how he says them when I watch his videos. It would give me a better idea of the "type" of person he is and if he would deceive others. What is your impression?

[Slovenia]

Zilano Repost (Hidden Don Smith Seccret)

Aug. 13, 2011
Zilano

Hi there!
Don Smith was never wrong! read his pdf again there still lies a hidden secret but u have to
guess! its there but its hard for everyone to find. go thru it and u will get it. Don Smith wanted us
to learn deeper and then apply. Smith wanted us to use our minds. not just make us dumb
followers. I found it and used it and so will each one at this Forum. and the power s all urz for
free. Kapanadze is one Guy who found it and used it. Sr193 followed suite of kapanadze. but his
output i dont think is 50 hz.
and same applies to kapagen.
Regards
Zilano zeis Zane
Think and read Again !

[Duncan]

Nice one jeofr hope other members will join in the praticals and stop theorizing without setup!

Thanks jeofr!

Easier said than done alas! Many members simply have no experience of dealing with HV ! Or perhaps dont have the PSUs scopes signal generators and all the rest of the equipment that is really required.to get in range of this machine.perhaps they live in a little flat with nowhere to work at all!
Still even those that are in no position to build for whatever reason I still find a huge resourse of information and research, I guess we need both hands to clap!
I've been playing about with various coils and trying various configerations .. out of shot there is a function gen which is directly driving the 2n3055s and a variable PSU which is feeding every thing, The voltage limit is set to 6 volts and the current foldback limited to 120ma .. so far (touch wood) It allows me to handle and move the coils about with full voltage, and I have been able to monitor and adjust the output without popping my scope like joefr ...ouch … or endangering myself, apart from a few unplesent eye sparklers.!
All that alters with a few big capacitors connected .. I have it in mind to try the pancake arrangement as suggested by vladimir, As Mr Clean said everything is critical .. the spark gap, the position of all three coils, their position with respect to each other.and of course resonance,



The spark gap is a Russian gas filled arrester , which is sparking but choked right back by the PSU...
anyway... any hombre got the details of inductance calculation for an interlaced pancake coil ?