Sorry to insist with the 2-stage oscillator

[bugler]

Hello all,

In this forum there re people with amazing mechanical skills (among many others).

Why nobody has replicated this desing?



It looks like a piece of cake for the gifted ones. A 3 pieces machine.

[CosmicFarmer]

My 2 cents are that a gravity only powered engine will run down no matter what its design is, if the only energy force used is gravity to gravity or weight to weight. You need to change energy's phase and back again, like gravity to electric and back, and the more efficient it is, the better.

This is pretty much a force amplifier?

Throw a few magnets on there and now were talking! make that thing an unstable magnetic contraption and then it might take off.

[Ted Ewert]

So many projects, so little time. Besides, it never works like it does in the drawings.
For some reason, Nature doesn't make it easy to fold back output energy to re power a device. There is no doubt the 2 stage oscillator is over unity, but getting the mechanism and the timing just right isn't a walk in the park. I'm sure it can be done, but be prepared for some major tweaking.

Cheers,

Ted

[Cloxxki]

[I wrote the grey part first, and then got an actually contributing idea, below in black.]

My idea exactly. Although, I think it will not work, even with the best tap-timing mechanism.

The primary pendulum is balanced with the weight on the other side. Seems like it's doing a great deal of work. Then, why not hook a double ratched to the upper pivot just left of "A"? Any magical forces on the counterweight, as I see it, should also work on the pivot. The double ratchet (see Tommey Reed's work on Youtube) will translate all of that overunity to a chain/cog sytem, to tun which ever kind of generator you like. See how much you can load this generator while just gently hand-tapping the main pendulum. This should give good clues.

I wonder if this great overunity even requires the counterweight.
Imagine a simple pendulum, hanging from a spring, with the pendulum's mounting point restricted in all directions except the vertical. The pendulum will oscillate the same, and the spring would act as "counterweight". The pendulum could be mounted in between 2 vertically placed springs. One compresses while the other extends.
The simple pendulum action will prove to deform those 2 springs much more than one would expect, you'll find when mounting a crossbar to be manipulated by hand for trying the resistance.

If there is anything to the 2-stage oscillator, might it be in the slightly laterally moving primary pendulum mounting point? Above idea might prove to NOT work as well, then. And if the lateral displacement is good, what about finding a setup with greater lateral displacement. Could figures higher than 12 be reached?

Hmm, I just got an idea. Standard 2-stage oscillator setup, but on the primary pendulum's mounting pivot sits a seperate bearing assembly and wheel hub. This wheel's "rim", is like 10x lighter than the main pendulum, or (even nearly weightless, depending on it's function). It interfaces with the primary pendum's weight, hitting it exactly when the latter reaches it's extreme outer position, left and right.
This "Tapping wheel" would be timed by a (crossed?) chain (or, perhaps better: elastic band) and 2 sprockets or pulleys, one connected to the wheel, one rigid to the 2nd stage pivot. Come to think of it, with this timing mechanism the wheel might have to be as light as possible, and just use brutal yet slow force to tap the 1st stage. Force not needed, won't be used I suppose, by lack of counterforce.

Trick here is the 1st stage pivot, which always has the same distance to the swinging weight, all needed for a good tap is the right angle at the right time. The crossbar acts like a contant length platform between seesaw pivot and 1st stage mounting point.
He who understands the 2-stage pendulum's relative position(range)s at all times, can time this tapping wheel, I'm sure. Cog/pulley sizes and even shapes (oval) can be used to tune the action.

[Ted Ewert]

Dammit! Now you got that oscillator in my head.
The timing is all off between the weight coming down and the optimal time to push the pendulum. There has to be a delay of some sort.
Then you have to build it like a brick house so you don't lose all your energy in parasitic oscillations, lots of steel and weight...
And that's just the start.


Sh#t, I may have to try it.

[lamare]

Looks an awful lot like the design of Veljko Milkovic:

Veljko Milkovic: Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator -- 9:1 overunity and antigravity... articles & patents

[Ted Ewert]

Looks an awful lot like the design of Veljko Milkovic:

Veljko Milkovic: Two-Stage Mechanical Oscillator -- 9:1 overunity and antigravity... articles & patents

Of course it is, he coined the name "2 stage oscillator". This just has a simple feedback mechanism.

[Cloxxki]

Dammit! Now you got that oscillator in my head.
The timing is all off between the weight coming down and the optimal time to push the pendulum. There has to be a delay of some sort.
Then you have to build it like a brick house so you don't lose all your energy in parasitic oscillations, lots of steel and weight...
And that's just the start.


Sh#t, I may have to try it.

The timing may be less of an issue if you have a wheel of sort as I propose, moving a lot, but only meeting the swinging weight when you want it to. A lightweight moving wheel will not drain the system much. Heck, the push it'll provide will also help reverse its own action.
I can imagine that you end up with one "table tennis bat" counter-penduling the 1st stage, completing the circle, so to say. If the 1st stage moves 90 degrees in total, the feedback wheel would do more than 270. Providing work only for the bit where it wants to overlap with the 1st stage.
Because the timing isn't easy, I threw in the crossed cord/belt/chain to invert action if necessary.

Edit to add: so many loop systems on the inventor's site. I suppose they're little more that propositions? Else we'd see some looped oscillators on Youtube by now?
There is this (surely true) story of the 2-st oscillator driving a water pump, capable of pumping 1000 liters per hour. Would a light plastic cup, say half a liter, that is far from impossible. Scoop and dump, scoop and dump.
The water mass moved each time weighs little more than a human hand.
I don't say this means the invention is crap, just that the proof so far is less than convincing.

[Ted Ewert]

Alright, I built a copy of the diagram. Just as I predicted the timing was all off and it didn't work. It would hit the weight as the weight was coming up instead of going down. And it was a slow pig.



I even tried it a different way, with the fulcrum reversed, and the timing was still goofy.



Now, keep in mind that this doesn't mean a feedback mechanism won't work. It just says that this particular mechanism was obviously produced in the pristine environment of someones mind, and not in the real world.
What most people don't realize is that a Milkovic device is truly an oscillator! Until it gets into resonance it acts like a pig. The above drawing makes no provision to get this device into resonance, which is another reason why it will never work as drawn.
Extra energy doesn't show up without resonance. This goes for all types of devices, electrical and mechanical. It has to resonate.
I'm going to reconfigure this unit to oscillate. Then I'll add some sort of feedback mechanism and we'll see how that works and go from there.

Cheers,

Ted

[ashtweth]

Ted, of all the people that should do this it YOU.
Yes you.

Man i think this is going to crack it, Ron who did cop+1 of this device (solenoid one) is a good friend of mine ill get him to look at this thread and help you.

thanks a lot for this man.

sincerely
Ash

[Ted Ewert]

Ted, of all the people that should do this it YOU.
Yes you.

Man i think this is going to crack it, Ron who did cop+1 of this device (solenoid one) is a good friend of mine ill get him to look at this thread and help you.

thanks a lot for this man.

sincerely
Ash

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ash. I've built a number of these oscillators over the years but have always had trouble converting the output to usable energy. Nevertheless, the more I build, the more I understanding how these types of devices work (Since my skull is a little thicker than most it's been a long, slow process , but I may get lucky one of these days. ).

Cheers,

Ted

[bugler]

Ted Ewert thanks for trying.

I had the idea that everybody here had read the tutorials in panaceauniversity.org. I have read them almost all and have some ideas but I don't know how to do them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to read everything in that website and get inspired.

[Ted Ewert]

Ted Ewert thanks for trying.

I had the idea that everybody here had read the tutorials in panaceauniversity.org. I have read them almost all and have some ideas but I don't know how to do them.

Maybe it would be a good idea to read everything in that website and get inspired.

I'm not done yet, that was just the first stage. I'm still working on reconfiguring it, so it may take a few days.
Do you have any tools and a place to work? You can build a nice oscillator out of wood scraps and simple fasteners. I started building that way and gradually figured out new and better ways to do things. It can seem a little overwhelming if you're not used to building, but once you get your hands dirty there's no turning back. There is no failing either, only steps to a better understanding.
It would be nice to have a separate section here just for construction. I know there are lots of people here who would like to build stuff but don't know quite how to get started. There are plenty of simple techniques that make putting a project together simple and easy, which is where the fun is.
There are quite a few experienced builders here who I'm sure would be happy to contribute their knowledge.

Cheers,

Ted

[Naboo]

Do you have any tools and a place to work? You can build a nice oscillator out of wood scraps and simple fasteners.

Thats exactly what I did! I just used a long sturdy plank of wood and some rotateable fasteners to attach the other part ( in this is experiment I used a spring instead of a pendulum). I used a spring because in principle this seems to be primarily about using resonance as a way to increase the power stored in the oscillator.

I know that in these cases theory should come second to the actual construction and testing of this device. Still I think it is important that people see why this relatively simple machine is so different from, say an ordinary resonating harmonic oscillator.

The fact that this machine is called a 2-stage oscillator is in my view because it allows us to separate the two kind of oscillations more or less from each other.
To anybody here who knows about Alexander Frolov and his ideas, I think the real key to why this machine can work is because it creates asymmetry.
The load and the input is 'not' directly connected with each other.

My ideas anyway Keep up the good work people, because this can get interesting

[Ted Ewert]

Here is the latest version of a feedback loop I'm trying on the 2 stage. I'm using a chain to change the length of the pendulum as the arm moves. The idea is with the right timing, energy from the lever oscillating can be used to add energy to the pendulum. No luck so far, but the possible combinations of pendulum length, idler and anchor positions are quite numerous. It also works differently with weights opposed to just springs, and with both together it's again different. Then you have to get it back in oscillation with each change. It's very time consuming but addicting at the same time. I keep going back into the shop with a new idea on how to make it work better. It's a fun little puzzle.



Cheers,

Ted