Efficient Carburetor designs

[Jetijs]

Hi all.
Since I am experimenting with gasoline vapors I have searched around the web a little and found a web site with info about a gasoline vapor carburetor. The author explains how the current carburetors and injection systems wastes fuel, because only the gasoline vapors burn, not the liquid itself, this is why it is so inefficient to inject small gasoline droplets in the combustion chamber rather than gasoline vapors. Because in the combustion chambet the gasoline turns into vapor completely only after the explosion and the unburned fuel is then burned into the catalyst converter. So the gasoline vapor is the key to get all the power out of gasoline. Using a gasoline vapor carburetor you can get up to 200mpg on a car. There is also explained how the oil companies reformulated gasoline so that gasoline vapor carburetors no longer could work properly.
Here is the link:
Sepp Hasslberger: Pogue Carburetor, 'Gasoline Vapor Maker' Increase Mileage

The author also suggests a rather simple carburetor design to increase MPG.
What do you think?

[howie]

vapourising fuel

Hi Jetijs,

I think vapourizing fuel can save a lot.

You might be interested in J.L Naudins work where he uses hot exhaust gases not only to make vapour but also to split the fuel into its components. Have a look at

BingoFuel (Alternative Fuels researches) by Jean-Louis Naudin

Mr. Naudin converted many different engines to work on this system. Surely this is kind of experimental, but therefore all parts should be obtainable at a good hardware store.

Interesting to know that Naudin's system is able to process different fuels like gasoline OR kerosene to work with an ordinary combustion engine. Even raw oil is said to work.

For the benefit of all people.

Howie

[howie]

Hi again,

Just found a very good GEET description

http://www.rialian.com/rnboyd/naudin-pantone.pdf

Howie

[Jetijs]

Thank you for the info
I suppose I might try to build one myself.
So far I want to get the most possible out of gasoline and as far as I understand, gasoline vaporization is the key. We could make a small metal container and put a fuel leveling device from some junk carburetor so that the fuel in the container would constantly be at the same level. Then we take a heating element and tut it on the bottom of that chamber. Then we install a thermostat that regulates the chamber temperature to some preset degrees (how much would be good?). I think that the higher the temperature the better as long as it is not high enough to selfignite the vapor. I think that 80-100 degree Celsius could be fine. A pressure gauge would be advisable to monitor the pressure and also a safety relief valve should be installed. Some fine metal mesh could be used just before the vapor outlet to catch all the liquid fuel in the vapor. From the link I gave in the first post, it seems that we now need to compress this vapor to higher pressures in a storage tank. How to do that? Just use a compressor? Or are there some kind of vapor pumps? I understand that the vapor in the storage tank is now more like gas and should be now used just like they use propane or butane on cars that are converted to work with gases. Any suggestions about this design would be appreciated
Thanks,
Jetijs

[Jetijs]

What is the temperature when the gasoline ignates? Is it safe to heat it to 700 degree F? Anyway, even if not all the gasoline will be evaporated at lower temperatures, this should still give much bigger economy than fuel injection or common carburetors, right? So what would be the highest safe temperatures that I could use to heat the gasoline?

[Ted Ewert]

Your ideas will work, but the additives they are putting into gasoline are put there to prevent it from being vaporized, just as lead was added in past years to prevent vaporization. You will need to reach 700-800 degrees F to vaporize todays gasoilne. They heat it to about 700 degrees F to crack it at the refinery. You will need to do the same to vaporize it.

The Pogue carb was based not only on vaporization, but also catalytic conversion of the fuel. Lead was put into the gasoline to prevent this catalytic cracking of the fuel molecule.
When catalytic converters were first introduced, lead was taken back out of gasoline and the gasoline was reformulated.
I believe pure gasoline, such as white gas, would still work quite well in a Pogue style carburetor.

Cheers,

Ted

[Tishatang]

Hi Jetijs,

I also have been thinking that a vapor system is the way to go. I am still stuck in China and can't do any experiments, but here is my idea. I hope it is not too simplistic?

Run a fuel line as the input to an A/C compressor. The output goes to the standard A/C expansion valve or capillary tube into an expansion chamber. The other end of the chamber goes into the engine manifold vacuum. The fuel under pressure enters the expansion chamber and vaporizes as it enters the vacuum of the chamber. Standard A/C principles. You will have to heat the chamber because it will get cold. It could be set in the air flow of the radiator fan or heated by the hot water or exhaust heat. Since the compressor is direct coupled to the engine, it will put out more fuel in proportion to engine speed. As you open the throttle, the expansion tank will supply quick fuel vapor until the lag of the expansion process fills the tank again. Remember expansion chamber under manifold vacuum, so temperature needed to vaporize fuel will be lower. Standard carb butterfly or throttle body butterfly to control air supply, engine speed to control vapor supply. Place expansion tank in vertical position with capillary at top. Then non vaporized particles should go through engine as they would anyway. No drain clean out valve needed.

Will probably have to add one-way fuel line valves and backfire safety valve.
If we are lucky, the standard automotive A/C expansion valve will pass enough fuel to test principle. Variables to fine tune would be capillary size, expansion tank size and diameter of drive pulleys. Pressure of expansion tank will cycle compressor off and on when cruising at high rpm will low load. In short, use all the engineering of an A/C system to make the fuel vapors.

Tishatang

[Ozicell]

Water Gasoline mix

Hi Jetis,

I am in awe of your youtube you did! I have been running straight water through the inlet manifold for a while now with the positive effect that I believe it has helped clean the cylinders. No change to fuel economy up or down and no - I haven't run my plugs with this mix! If you can, could you make up a gasoline water mix and re-run your experiment with the vapouriser please. I believe that the extra energy released from the gasoline vapour may have a positive effect on the water vapour. Add to the equation the water spark plug circuit and we could be on the money!

I have just about finalised a set of plugs for Ash as promised and I hope from now on, I have removed most of the bugs making them. I'll be interested in his test results with them.

Cheers
Ozi

[Ozicell]

Clogged carbie

BTW I tried fuel heating which definitely improved economy but fouled the carbie with unwanted additives. Maybe your vapouriser will get around this problem.

Ozi

[Ozicell]

Misting

What is the temperature when the gasoline ignates? Is it safe to heat it to 700 degree F? Anyway, even if not all the gasoline will be evaporated at lower temperatures, this should still give much bigger economy than fuel injection or common carburetors, right? So what would be the highest safe temperatures that I could use to heat the gasoline?

The thing is that by using the ultrasonic method, your are feeding a vapour into the carbie, and un - misted additive will be left in the misting chamber. If this is the case, it may be just a matter of making a sump for collection and you have just got around the additive issue. On the other hand, if the additive are misting as well, then you have got around the problem anyway!

Cheers
Ozi

[citfta]

Re: Using AC compressor

The AC compressor idea is good but modern AC compressors depend upon the oil in the freon for lubrication. If you use one of them to pump gasoline it will lock up in a short while. Some of the old style AC compressors had an area below the piston that was an oil reservoir and that kept the piston lubricated. The old style were the big square ones. Many years ago my Dad and I ran a small engine off the vapors of gasoline just by putting a small radiator hose into a large fuel tank off a truck. We connected the other end of the radiator hose to the air intake of the carburator of the small engine. The truck fuel tank had enough fuel to completely cover the bottom of the tank. We had removed the fuel gauge sending unit and let the fresh air go into the tank that way and had the radiator hose stuck into the filler neck of the tank. This would run the small engine for a few minutes until we used up more vapors than were being produced by the gasoline. If we had heated the tank I am sure we could have run it until the gasoline was all gone.
citfta

[Jetijs]

Now we are getting somewhere. Thank you for the ideas

If you can, could you make up a gasoline water mix and re-run your experiment with the vapouriser please. I believe that the extra energy released from the gasoline vapour may have a positive effect on the water vapour. Add to the equation the water spark plug circuit and we could be on the money!

I already did this. I did not try to burn the mist, but water and gasoline can be misted together in the same container. It is just that gasoline is less dense than water and it flows above the water. The ultrasonic waves need to penetrate both layers and there is no way to tell which layer is converted to mist more. Therefor I think it would be better to make two ultrasonic chambers, one for gasoline and other for water and then just combine the mist output of them.

BTW I tried fuel heating which definitely improved economy but fouled the carbie with unwanted additives.

If we will have a storage chamber full with gasoline vapor under pressure, we can just remove the carby and inject the vapor directly in the air intake as close to the intake valve as possible. This works fine with hydrogen. All you need then is just to adjust the gas pressure to get the RPMs you need. Higher pressure means more vapors thus more speed. At least this works great on hydrogen, maybe it will work this way also on gasoline vapors. For anyone interested in hydrogen converted vehicles, find a DVD called "Hydrogen car". Lots of great info there

Today I will try to make a gas burner from a small plastic container. It will be filled with gasoline and a small fan will be attached on one side of the container and blowing air into it via a small hole. On the other end of the container, there will be a small outlet hole. I will submerge a high wattage resistor in the gasoline and apply some power to it to heat the gasoline. Will see how it performs.

Thank you guys
Jetijs

[Jetijs]

BTW, this youtube guy has some of those "hydrogen car" videos uploaded;
YouTube - CRX35E's Channel

Just go to his videos and type "hydrogen" in the search bar. There will be 10 videos. This is great stuff. Hurry up, because youtube keeps removing those videos fast.

[BinzerBob]

smoky

Hi all.
Since I am experimenting with gasoline vapors I have searched around the web a little and found a web site with info about a gasoline vapor carburetor. The author explains how the current carburetors and injection systems wastes fuel, because only the gasoline vapors burn, not the liquid itself, this is why it is so inefficient to inject small gasoline droplets in the combustion chamber rather than gasoline vapors. Because in the combustion chambet the gasoline turns into vapor completely only after the explosion and the unburned fuel is then burned into the catalyst converter. So the gasoline vapor is the key to get all the power out of gasoline. Using a gasoline vapor carburetor you can get up to 200mpg on a car. There is also explained how the oil companies reformulated gasoline so that gasoline vapor carburetors no longer could work properly.
Here is the link:
Sepp Hasslberger: Pogue Carburetor, 'Gasoline Vapor Maker' Increase Mileage

The author also suggests a rather simple carburetor design to increase MPG.
What do you think?

For what it is worth, an old friend of mine back in 1995 was telling me of a guy named Smoky (I do not recall his full name). Basically this guy converted a Fiero (a GM car) to burn vapor fuel. He did much work in the area and was getting amazing results. He supposedly approached GM with the concept way back in the day and GM did not hook up with him.

One thing that I know was done was that one needed a Turbo charger because when you heat the fuel air mixture it expands. The Turbo charger is used to keep the mass flow rate constant (or the volumetric flow rate).

I could not find any info about smoky on the internet... maybe someone interested might have better luck than me.

Best regards,

[Jetijs]

Hi BinzerBob
Thank you for joining this thread
Can you tell me what a turbo charger is? Some kind of compressor?
Thank you,
Jetijs