Gray Tube Replication

[Dingus]

You said, "With the same high energy discharge I can "pop" neo magnets upto the ceiling .... nothing special there, just high energy for short amount of time."

I never really payed too much attention to Gray's Tube or your Plasma Ignition before, but I was under the impression Gray's coil could *pop* a magnet without heating the coil significantly, I also thought that it could *pop* non-magnets. Do you know if there's any truth to this? I tried simulating your circuit & noticed how the current in the coil alternated rapidly after the circuit was completed, but I might just be overthinking things. Have you tried making an AC coil using your circuit?

IF you want to go solid state, then use a MSD so you can get 6-7 plasma events per trigger to go to the primary of a transformer. Use a CDI with one discharge per trigger if you want to put in on a motor.

What exactly do you mean by a MSD?

[RAMSET]

MSD

MSD Ignition Systems | Free Shipping at Jegs High Performance

[Aaron]

gray tube replication

I did not have an auto-transformer symbol ... my circuit is exactly the same function.
If it really bothers you, I will remove the wire between the coils. Still a better circuit than your hand scribles ..


I was specific!, I pointed out which pdf had the diode anode connected, even gave the link again and said it was different than the correction to my circuit, how more specific do you want .... click the pdf link!




I thought C1 was the HV side, C2 is the LV side with a cap or battery .... again confusion ...


Wrong again, I have experimented with the "part" circuits you have provided, but since you refuse to post a "recent" complete circuit, I can't duplicate your current setup... why so secret?


Wong again, a spark gap IS a negative resistance device and does discharge capacitors with square'ish slopes, not exponential .... study up on spark gaps.


I have, and it doesn't with a spark gap, or the additional faster method's I use.



Ok, so you be SPECIFIC, how fast is the discharge. IMPOSSIBLE? I can discharge a 2uF 5kv cap in 100nS with my methods which is a lot of peak power. You do not know me or my experiences, again with the assumptions.
I told you before I am an Electronics Engineer of some 45yrs experience in many fields, including Radio/TV Transmitters both Valve and Solid state, high power Radar systems, Microwaves, High Power medical equipment, Solar energy, computer systems, high power power systems, to name just a bit of what I have done .... and you can be so arrogant to assume you know my experiences? You know nothing about me.



You have no right to say that, as you don't know how I am discharging the cap, you are ASSUMING I am discharging into a resistive load, I am not.


This banter is a wast of energy, just attach your latest full schematic of your setup and I will duplicate it and compare to my setup.

If someone doesn't know, they might try to have a separate primary coil than the secondary without knowing it is a single ignition coil - you know, to eliminate the confusion and all.

There are diagrams on pages 1, 2 and 3 in the pdf. Which page and which diagram are you talking about?

C1 is the high voltage side and I already spelled out how that cap is charged. You didn't ask me how C2 was charged but I told you anyway, rectified MOT. Of course C2 is on the LV side.

There is nothing secret about my circuits. Why are others able to replicate my circuits and they don't even have any formal electrical engineering experience but you have 45 years of experience and have all these questions? It's all right here in this forum over all these years - component values, etc... I shouldn't have to dig up for other people that don't want to search it on their own. If you read through this entire thread, you will see that including all details in my videos, pdfs, etc...

Don't tell me about spark gaps, the negative resistance happens at the GAP - I gave a whole lecture on that regarding electron cascade, etc... you should study the ignitionsecrets.com package and you will see that you are only preaching to the choir.

There is quite a difference in having a negative resistance at only the gap where the current is accelerated to the positive side vs having a negative resistance effect that includes not only the gap, but the rest of the circuit.

Don't talk to me about arrogance, you have all this experience, but don't even know that a diode is not blocking anything at all until AFTER the HV jumps into it and you criticize it based on your faulty understanding. That is arrogance.

I'm freely sharing my experience with these circuits and am asking for nothing in return, you should humble your attitude when you're asking someone for help in understanding their work - especially when I have zero obligation to tell you anything.

I'm not assuming you are discharging into a restive load. The gap is the only negative resistance that you have and the rest whether it is resistance or inductance has resistances and impedences. Every part of the circuit that your cap discharge moves over is a load whether it is the intended load or not.

And you don't know anything about me either other than the small bit that you have selectively picked. If you have experimented on all of my "part" circuits for a long time, why is that you leave out everything else I shared? For something to gripe about?

If you want to leave out the crap, then change your attitude towards me since I'm offering to help you. You are the one with the provocative attitude and I owe you nothing. If you want to move forward on this and stick to experiment, then stop thinking you know everything about my circuits when you have already proven to not understand the reverse placement of the diodes that accomplish 180 degrees opposite of what you thought.

Now, what do you want to use your big capacitor for? The LV or HV source? If you're using the plasma ignition as the HV source, then the 5000 v at say 2-4uf is then the low voltage source that goes in place of the battery. Your goal is then to discharge the 5000 volt cap across a gap much larger than 1mm, which is the average ambient dry air distance that 5000v can jump. What you are doing is then MIXING your HV and low current source over the gap with a LV and high current source. The current in the low voltage source is accelerated over the whole circuit all the way to the LV source and NOT just at the gap.

With a normal 5kv few uf discharge, the current is still moving at a few inches per hour over the wire from the cap negative to the gap and accelerates over the gap and is then slowed down past the gap back to a few inches per hour.

With my method, the current before and after the gap is accelerated increasing the power for that impulse beyond what you will normally accomplish.

The reason for this is that the current from the LV source is being accelerated over the whole circuit because of the High voltage potential available on the same circuit. The current from the low voltage 5kv cap is being pulled by 25kv+ or whatever voltage your plasma ignition HV source. It is essentially replicating what happens at the spark gap on the entire circuit. And that is why preceding a LV source discharge with ionization of a gap with a much higher voltage getting the LV source to jump a gap way bigger than it would normally do on its own will cause that 5kv or whatever LV source to discharge with a much smaller time cranking up the power.

Your circuit is essentially correct:



The ignition coil needs to be one with HV positive with the diode shown and if it is negative, reverse the diode. If you have a hard time finding one with positive high voltage, use a wasted spark ignition coil pack for a 4 cylinder car and 2 of the terminals will guaranteed to be positive - you only need to use one of the terminals for this experiment. Just cap off the other 3.

C1 should be a couple hundred volts at 3-4uf minimum. If charging with rectified AC from the wall, you'll get 160v, which is enough for a good CDI (capacitive discharge ignition). Acronyms? With 45 years of experience and doing a lot of capacitive discharge, it is in the common language that MSD is multiple spark discharge and CDI is single cap discharge per trigger.

The diode should be rated above the voltage of the ignition coil HV. I have used countless 6A100 (6 amp 1000v) diodes in stringers of 25-30 for 25kv to 30kv at 6 amps and are practically bulletproof for these experiments. That is what you need for D1.

I got tired of soldering those diodes so I use a single ham radio switching diode - Amazon.com: 2CLG 30KV 2A High Voltage Diode HV Rectifier Tesla Ham: Electronics 30kv and 2 amps - more than sufficient.

Your switch for SW1 - I used a reed switch triggered by the magnets on the actual rotor.

D2 should be rated the same as D1.

C2 - depends on how much "booster cap" you want to crank up the plasma impulse. I went up to about 1200 volts max using caps in series but also used 4000kv 2uf capacitor. You just need to use what you have and charge it with a MOT or other higher voltage power supply powered by a variac so you can start off low voltage and slow go up. With a motor, you will increase the speed this way but for solid state, you have to figure out your tuning on your own obviously.

The motor coil or transformer coil L3, in my video of the motor running, I used a 1000 or so turn trifilar but only used two windings for most of the experiments. Was a coil I wound for some SG experiments. I also used a 2000 turn trifilar. Wire was 23 awg for the power windings, which is what I used for that motor.

ALL of these details are in this thread, in my docs, in my videos, etc... and have been for years.

[Aaron]

gray and msd

I never really payed too much attention to Gray's Tube or your Plasma Ignition before, but I was under the impression Gray's coil could *pop* a magnet without heating the coil significantly, I also thought that it could *pop* non-magnets. Do you know if there's any truth to this? I tried simulating your circuit & noticed how the current in the coil alternated rapidly after the circuit was completed, but I might just be overthinking things. Have you tried making an AC coil using your circuit?
What exactly do you mean by a MSD?

The cold claims are interesting claims that I have never verified in these circuits but I'm only going on my experience with my circuits.

Absolutely true, Gray was popping plastic discs - videos are online. He was moving towards propulsion systems with it for space travel. But at that point, he was using very conventional high power ignatrons.

There is a high frequency oscillation with the discharge - the spark gap is a rf transmitter. Mark McKay posted simulator diagrams of this way back.

I have not tried making an AC version.

MSD is multiple spark discharge.

A CDI is a capacitive discharge ignition. With a cdi, a cap is charged and when triggered will discharge once into the primary of an ignition coil.

A MSD is a souped up version of the CDI where when it is triggered by the ignition system, during one ignition cycle, the MSD at low RPM can discharge about 7 times one right after another more burning the fuel better. At high rpms, lucky to get 2-3 times.

A CDI is wanted if you want to do this experiment with a motor.

If you want to do it solid state the motor coil is actually the primary of a transformer, you probably want MSD.

[BroMikey]

@tick

You are not showing results tick. It is a shame that you are this
kind of a man that you are no longer going to post here
like you said you would after following directions or doing what you were told.

Aaron is younger yes and smarter than most people realize and this
enrages older men, to bad.

You are a railroad engineer, don't lie to me........

You are to lazy to go back and do the work reading the posts offered
freely to you. So it is you who are unwilling to apply yourself. You
want an easy quick answer dropped in your lap, just like everything
has been your whole life, quite probably.

I invite everyone to look at your post when you claim you have never
said anything against Aaron. That of course is a bare faced lie as
seen below.

All of your screen names mean nothing, I will spot you everytime.

Aaron has been more than kind to you, I on the other hand would have
cut you off sooner. Now mr arm chair command steam cauldron you have
been "hung out" to "dry out" by your own silly way of grilling our friend.

I have known many engineers over the years who speak the way you do
and this is shameful for a grown man. But this is the way you were taught
in school and in the work place, to eat your opponent. Thus dog eat dog
mentally.

All of those who I have known like you had to have heart surgery at a
young age or died early.

You have lie in our face. I am sorry you are so full of hateful slanders.

Aaron has done a good job showing all of the details so your lies don't
change a thing and we love Aaron for who he is.

What a shameful man you are and those like you who have lived their
entire lives the way you talk to Aaron. Go now and find another person
that you can LORD over for a few posts to make your narcissistic
personality feel all yummy and smart.

If you were the last man on earth and I was dying for drink I would
know better than to ask you for help and go ahead and give up the ghost.

That behavior is the bottom of the barrel and is not welcome here.

More contradictory statements, confusion and mis-direction. .................................................. .................................................. ...................just following blindly along .. I am not blind and I CAN see all the mistakes.

To finish, and this will be my last post on your work: Aaron you must be very very insecure about your work ............................................. I have just pointed out mistakes so everyone can benefit ... maybe you should humble yourself and admit to the errors ....

Nobody can "do it like Aaron" because he will not publish a full schematic so that people can replicate "exactly" what he has to evaluate it ..

PS: I don't know what MSD is either .... I hate lazy acronyms ..

If it really bothers you, I will remove the wire between the coils. Still a better circuit than your hand scribles ..

Wrong again, I have experimented with the "part" circuits you have provided, but since you refuse to post a "recent" complete circuit, I can't duplicate your current setup... why so secret?

I have, and it doesn't with a spark gap, or the additional faster method's I use.

IMPOSSIBLE? and you can be so arrogant to assume you know my experiences?

This banter is a wast of energy, just attach your latest full schematic ...........................................

Aaron, I do not just talk ..... ............. I want to post a complete working circuit that everyone can replicate, not some half-circuit's that are misleading and incomplete.
....................... .....none of your circuits are complete, have component values, construction method's etc that everyone can duplicate ...

[RAMSET]

are your highlighted quotes supposed to be the "INSULTS" ?

whats wrong with asking for a nice clear schematic on a claim??

that is typically the very first thing a professional engineer will "insist" on before he will even discuss a circuit ??
And yes somebody who does this for a living will be a bit of a critic if the standards are not what he is used to seeing everyday.

I am told [MANY times] that an engineer can send a properly written schematic or series of schematics on how to build a 747 to a man on the other side of the world and a 747 can and will be built to the highest of standards, and he will never have to speak one word to the builders.

If you feel these posts are rude ,I can tell you that I hear much worse everyday from engineers when it comes to this very Topic

"schematics " and what they should look like.

just One mans opinion

Chet K

[Aaron]

gray tube replication

More contradictory statements, confusion and mis-direction. C2 is the low voltage side and you are telling me to power it with a Microwave oven transformer which is high voltage?????


Maybe others don't have the questions BECAUSE they don't have the experience, and some are likely just following blindly along .. I am not blind and I CAN see all the mistakes.
Maybe you are just objecting so violently because someone is finally asking the real questions about what is going on ...



I only pointed out the negative resistance properties of a spark GAP because you where stating that the cap has a normal exponential discharge which it doesn't with a spark gap, quote my comments in context!


I do know that a diode is not blocking until voltage is across it, high voltage or not, and I am not criticizing anything .... stop being so touchy ...

To finish, and this will be my last post on your work: Aaron you must be very very insecure about your work to start personally attacking me for just asking questions ... I have not attacked you at all, I have just pointed out mistakes so everyone can benefit ... maybe you should humble yourself and admit to the errors .... as I did several posts back when I made a mistake about the triode current direction.

.. and lastly, maybe one day for everyone else's benefit you could post a real CAD generated full drawing of your CURRENT working system, as stuff changes over time (you know, something scientific).... and a picture is worth 1000 badly communicated words ... now THAT would be something worthwhile ... over and out

Bernard,

Knock off the bs and arrogance - Mikey has kindly pointed many of those incidents out - insults, attacks, arrogance, etc...

If you have 5kv cap on the HV side or an ignition coil, then a MOT will charge a cap on the LV side to about 1200 no problem. You seem incapable of comprehending that this MOT output voltage is LOW VOLTAGE COMPARED to the HV side. It's not contradictory, you aren't comprehending that a MOT output is LOW relative to a higher voltage on the HV side. If you have ignition coil voltage or 5kv on the input, the MOT is LOW VOLTAGE comparatively speaking.

You are also stirring up crap on purpose because I have clearly shown you that my HV source is ignition coil voltage and I charged up caps to around 1200 volts with a MOT on the LV side and here you are mysteriously surprised that I could have the audacity to state that L2 is charged with a MOT.

You are either here as a troll to cause trouble or you seriously have a problem comprehending the English language.

There are replications from people with NO training in electrical engineering. Looks like your 45 years are doing nothing for you on this project other than feeding your ego and blocking your ability to see outside of your own narrow minded thinking. Let's not forget it is you with 45 years of experience here asking me for details on how to do my experiment.

You did not know that about the blocking diode and your posts prove it. You argued with me over and over that the ignition coil voltage must be negative or it can't go through the diode, until I pointed out the facts. You didn't learn that at Caterpillar did you?

Yes, you have attacked me with a crappy attitude and some egomaniacal compulsive urge to try to force my experiment into your metal construct, which doesn't work here.

There are NO errors or mistakes in my diagrams to admit to. That is why they work 100% of the time. And it is not an error to claim the MOT charges L2 from a variac. What does that tell you? That LV side could be only 200 volts if that is what you turn the variac up so that 200 volts is all the MOT outputs. You have jumped to one ridiculous conclusion after another about my statements.

You already claim to have the answers with your conventional cap discharge to pop magnets to the ceiling so you already have it figured out. If you think your circuit does the same or better, then why are you wasting my time?

No bad communication on my part, the evidence is in this forum with multiple successful replications and none of those builders asked 1/10 of the questions you're asking. Looks like it is a comprehension problem on your part.

I corrected your diagram and gave you the specs for the components.

@Ramset, read that last sentence - and all of that has already been shared in this forum, etc. multiple times over the years.

[Aaron]

successful replication of the principle

Old replication of the plasma ignition discharge through an inductor just as I showed. by user Ghst back in 2009 or so.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJQlr2862kk[/VIDEO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSM6f9lpQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpZ_ZeRsxTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfbjtiprac

[Aaron]

Ghst 3rd final motor vid

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfjs6gM8M6Q[/VIDEO]

And the video description - wonder where we've seen that description around here somewhere lately?

"Uploaded on Sep 22, 2009

In This test run I found out how to time the capacitors discharge to take place only when the magnets are in the proper position to create repulsion. But notice that the discharge is no longer inside the tube. This is because I have removed the ground from the tube completely. The ground makes physical contact with the spinning spark gap (bottom hoop). I ran a jumper from the grid or capacitor charge wire to the top wire hoop on the spinning contact. This is where I set the ground to grid gap. Notice that the capacitor (tube) discharge now happens where I want it to happen (In relation with the rotor stator alignment). The tube will work for demonstration purposes with the conventional diode to ground setup, but that will give you a spontaneous discharge, happening at any time during the motors rotation. It can even stall the motor completely.

Gray's patent drawing is correct, in that he used a triode triggered by the commutator, to introduce the low voltage potential into the tube, So that the motor would fire the capacitor at the desired rotor to stator position, to produce rotation. The diode will make the tube function. But Gray clearly showed how to make the motor work."

[Aaron]

Magdude1979 replication 1

Nice green plasma

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfJGawDgAEk[/VIDEO]

[Aaron]

Magdude1979 replication 2

This was the best quality build out of all of these experiments using the HV to ionize the gap for LV to jump across and pulse and inductor:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rFjrPo9mws[/VIDEO]

[BroMikey]

Old replication of the plasma ignition discharge through an inductor just as I showed. by user Ghst back in 2009 or so.

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJQlr2862kk[/VIDEO]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJSM6f9lpQA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpZ_ZeRsxTE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyfbjtiprac

Thanks again Aaron

I don't have all day to read the whole thread from years back, I wish

I did, but what I love about this post is that you deem it one of the

more important posts from years past. No I'm not going to criticizes you

or berate you because it all hasn't sunk into my noodle.

I'll be honest, I have done many electron and power electrical feats

over the years but some of this stuff is so different I have to try it

first in a careful experiment to see if it seems safe.


I think a 12v or 24v mechanic is going to have a hard time going along

with the concept of HV meeting LV with no ill effects.


One thing is sure, I am glad there is someone who lives their life to

follow the alternative energy field, instead of just pushing a broom

under a tractor when sales drop.


Punching the clock is a drag.

[Dingus]

The cold claims are interesting claims that I have never verified in these circuits but I'm only going on my experience with my circuits.

I haven't replicated your circuit yet, but do you know for a fact that your coils get hot, have you checked?

Absolutely true, Gray was popping plastic discs - videos are online. He was moving towards propulsion systems with it for space travel. But at that point, he was using very conventional high power ignatrons.

There is a high frequency oscillation with the discharge - the spark gap is a rf transmitter. Mark McKay posted simulator diagrams of this way back.

I have not tried making an AC version.

I figured those were conductive polymers that were being popped, since conductive polymers have been around since the 50's. If that is the case, then he probably did it with eddy currents. I can't think of any other way he could have done it, aside from hiding permanent magnets inside the plastic. I can't quite think of a way to make an AC version of the circuit, so 2 circuits out of phase with each other & a bifilar coil is the best I could think of.

MSD is multiple spark discharge.

A CDI is a capacitive discharge ignition. With a cdi, a cap is charged and when triggered will discharge once into the primary of an ignition coil.

A MSD is a souped up version of the CDI where when it is triggered by the ignition system, during one ignition cycle, the MSD at low RPM can discharge about 7 times one right after another more burning the fuel better. At high rpms, lucky to get 2-3 times.

A CDI is wanted if you want to do this experiment with a motor.

If you want to do it solid state the motor coil is actually the primary of a transformer, you probably want MSD.

I'm only interested in it as solid state for now, I'm mostly interested in the near-instant capacitor discharge. With that said, I was hoping I might be able to replace the spark with a neon bulb, vacuum tube or something else that would run quietly. The only use I might need an ignition system for would require a near-continuous arc, unlike a reciprocating engine, so timing isn't much of an issue. I'm going by the circuit in the top half of this picture for now, unless you have a newer one that's better for creating impulses.

[Aaron]

gray tube

I haven't replicated your circuit yet, but do you know for a fact that your coils get hot, have you checked?

I figured those were conductive polymers that were being popped, since conductive polymers have been around since the 50's. If that is the case, then he probably did it with eddy currents. I can't think of any other way he could have done it, aside from hiding permanent magnets inside the plastic. I can't quite think of a way to make an AC version of the circuit, so 2 circuits out of phase with each other & a bifilar coil is the best I could think of.

I'm only interested in it as solid state for now, I'm mostly interested in the near-instant capacitor discharge. With that said, I was hoping I might be able to replace the spark with a neon bulb, vacuum tube or something else that would run quietly. The only use I might need an ignition system for would require a near-continuous arc, unlike a reciprocating engine, so timing isn't much of an issue. I'm going by the circuit in the top half of this picture for now, unless you have a newer one that's better for creating impulses.

I didn't check the coils for temp that I recall, but I'm sure they warmed up - some good current pulses in them.

The plastic was probably something conductive. You can influence any material with magnetic fields if strong enough, even plain plastic, but I don't believe it was that kind of power.

If you do experiments with any kind of glass bulbs, etc... make sure they're shielded in something safe because you could explode them easily.

This plasma ignition circuit can do apparent continuous arc with fast enough frequency, but if you want true continuous, you might need something like a xenon circuit or something. Wouldn't be the same thing, but just wanted to mention it.

That diagram you mention was very early when my HV source actually went to the grids first and charged the cap behind the inductor up. When that cap got high enough to jump the gap to ground through inductor to grids to that common ground, it caused the plasma. Would have to elaborate on that later, but that was when I was trying to do it with the cap behind the inductor and made the plasma by "accident".

Anyway, this is the real analogy between the Gray Tube patent and the plasma ignition:

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-KOgU9n78[/VIDEO]

[Dingus]

I didn't check the coils for temp that I recall, but I'm sure they warmed up - some good current pulses in them.

If he did manage to have to coils run cooler it probalby just had something to do with the magnetocaloric effect or something like that, probably not worth it for low-power application.

The plastic was probably something conductive. You can influence any material with magnetic fields if strong enough, even plain plastic, but I don't believe it was that kind of power.

Yeah, I don't think it's worth it to try with anything other than a conductor, especially considering the materials that are available these days.

If you do experiments with any kind of glass bulbs, etc... make sure they're shielded in something safe because you could explode them easily.

Way ahead of you on that one, I like to assume anything I make myself might explode.

This plasma ignition circuit can do apparent continuous arc with fast enough frequency, but if you want true continuous, you might need something like a xenon circuit or something. Wouldn't be the same thing, but just wanted to mention it.

Apparent continuous is good enough for what I had in mind, but testing the circuit in a simple simulator, it seems like the plasma ignition circuit is best for lower frequencies, so if there's no benefit to using the circuit at really high frequencies, then I'll just use a xenon circuit or something instead, it'll be worth testing either way. I wouldn't even know how make a switch that works rapidly enough to be apparently continuous. How would you do it?

That diagram you mention was very early when my HV source actually went to the grids first and charged the cap behind the inductor up. When that cap got high enough to jump the gap to ground through inductor to grids to that common ground, it caused the plasma. Would have to elaborate on that later, but that was when I was trying to do it with the cap behind the inductor and made the plasma by "accident".

Anyway, this is the real analogy between the Gray Tube patent and the plasma ignition:

I actually saw that video before I started posting in this thread, I was going to with that old circuit because it seemed less complicated & with the circuit simulator I've been using, I can't seem to get the new circuit to work, while the old one shows a very obvious voltage spike at the moment the switch is flipped. I didn't even realize the difference in time stamps until just now.