Electric Motor Secrets

[Jetijs]

Lighty, I doubt that prewinding the coil is possible with my design:

The end part of each pole is wider, so I would not be able to get the coil on the pole and If i fill the thinner part of the pole so that the whole pole is as thick as the thickest part, I would lose much space. I will better wind all the coils by hand, after all there will be only 30 turns on each coil, that should not be too hard

[lighty]

The end part of each pole is wider, so I would not be able to get the coil on the pole and If i fill the thinner part of the pole so that the whole pole is as thick as the thickest part, I would lose much space. I will better wind all the coils by hand, after all there will be only 30 turns on each coil, that should not be too hard

Ah, I didn't know that fact. Although in the future you should consider using straight lines poles in order to speed up and simplify testing of various coils. I don't see any harm in doing that and to be honest I don't see any advantages in having poles widen at the "working end". Look at the stator of the exact replica of Tesla's 2-phase induction motor. Of course it's just an idea but in my experience it's MUCH easier and faster to work and experiment with preformed coils.



Anyway- don't forget to put mylar between coil and steel in order to avoid damaging the insulations (mylar is very cheap, mechanically resilient and very thin so you won't get any noticeable magnetic loses due to it's thickness). You can get mylar at any motor winding shop.

BTW- good work!

[Jetijs]

Lighty,
I like the idea of prewounded coils. If I started design this motor only now, I would take your idea into account.
I got the magnet wire today, it is 1.32mm thick and that is about AWG 16. First I insulated the poles with a cloth tape. I calculated that in order to wind 30 turns of wire in bifilar mode, I will need about 7meters of wire. But only now I really realize how hard it must have been for Steven to wind his stator coils. It is very hard to wind such thick wires in bifilar mode, I wish this wire was a lot softer. When I finished winding one pole, I checked the resistance of the windings, but I found out that there is a short to the stator somewhere. Obviously I have scraped the insulation off some part of wire in the winding process, also the cloth tape insulation was faulty somewhere. So I took off the winding and taped all over the sharp edges everywhere where I could accidentally scrape the wire insulation in the winding process. Then I wound a test coil with 30 turns of only one wire. This was a lot easier, but never the less There was still a short to the core somewhere. I can't understand why. I will need to make the core insulation thicker and more careful.
Here is a picture of the insulated poles before first bifilar winding:



And here is the core with all the sharp edges insulated but still a short between the coil and core:



I remind you that this is only a test winding to see how hard it will be.
In the picture you can see that there is enough space for another 30 windings for the recovery coil, but winding both wires at once is so hard, so does it make a difference if I wind the power coil first and then the recovery coil on top of the power coil? Maybe I can use a lighter gauge wire for the recovery coil as lighty suggested? This would make the whole process so much easier. Or maybe I should stay with only one coil on each pole for the first tests and use the same winding also for recovery. Of course this wont allow me to feed the output directly back on the input via a capacitor.
Peter, what do you think?

Thank you.

[Peter Lindemann]

Cloth Tape vs Mylar

Lighty,
I like the idea of prewounded coils. If I started design this motor only now, I would take your idea into account.
I got the magnet wire today, it is 1.32mm thick and that is about AWG 16. First I insulated the poles with a cloth tape. I calculated that in order to wind 30 turns of wire in bifilar mode, I will need about 7meters of wire. But only now I really realize how hard it must have been for Steven to wind his stator coils. It is very hard to wind such thick wires in bifilar mode, I wish this wire was a lot softer. When I finished winding one pole, I checked the resistance of the windings, but I found out that there is a short to the stator somewhere. Obviously I have scraped the insulation off some part of wire in the winding process, also the cloth tape insulation was faulty somewhere. So I took off the winding and taped all over the sharp edges everywhere where I could accidentally scrape the wire insulation in the winding process. Then I wound a test coil with 30 turns of only one wire. This was a lot easier, but never the less There was still a short to the core somewhere. I can't understand why. I will need to make the core insulation thicker and more careful.
Here is a picture of the insulated poles before first bifilar winding:



And here is the core with all the sharp edges insulated but still a short between the coil and core:



I remind you that this is only a test winding to see how hard it will be.
In the picture you can see that there is enough space for another 30 windings for the recovery coil, but winding both wires at once is so hard, so does it make a difference if I wind the power coil first and then the recovery coil on top of the power coil? Maybe I can use a lighter gauge wire for the recovery coil as lighty suggested? This would make the whole process so much easier. Or maybe I should stay with only one coil on each pole for the first tests and use the same winding also for recovery. Of course this wont allow me to feed the output directly back on the input via a capacitor.
Peter, what do you think?

Thank you.

Jetijs,

Seems like your cloth tape does not offer enough structural integrity to prevent the sharp edge of the stator from penetrating the wire insulation when you wind the coils that tight. This is why Lighty suggested the Mylar sheet over the square edges.

I've wound a lot of my stators more than once, so any of the ideas you are suggesting is a worthy experiment. I sometimes find if I mount the stator in a vise, and ask a friend to tension the wire feed, then I have both hands available to wind and position the two wires on each turn. Its a tedious operation, so just go slow and you can do it.

Any other suggestions from other builders are welcome.

Peter

[lighty]

@Jetijs

Cloth tape is simply not enough to prevent some small splinter on the stator to penetrate it and compromise winding insulation. I find that hard way when I wound coils on Mu-metal cores that were water cut. There was always some not so visible splinter that would compromise coil insulation. It was a rather frustrating experience You could always use your finger to find those splinters (like I did) but I must warn you that it's a painful task.

Also, why don't you use a sand paper to smooth the edges of stator poles? It's one of the first things to do when you get anything that was water, laser or plasma cut.

You could also apply a thin layer of epoxy resin that would provide you a smooth surface to wind on. But apply as thin layer as possible in order to minimize magnetic losses. That's also one of the solutions I use.

BTW - if you don't want to use mylar you can also use glass fiber tape that's also used in the winding shops (although I prefer mylar for a number of reasons) and it will provide excellent mechanical and electrical protection although at a cost of a slightly thicker layer than in the case of mylar.

Anyway- good work Jetijs!

[Jetijs]

Lighty, thank you for those advices
I just don't know where to get this mylar. In the motor rewinding company they said that they use a simple cloth tape and glue it around the transformer cores before coil winding. I will sand off those sharp edges, as you suggested, and only then try to insulate the poles.
Thank you,
Jetijs

[lighty]

Well then sand off edges and apply a thin layer of epoxy. I'm pretty sure that that should do the trick.

BTW- do ask them for the glass fiber tape they ought to use that.

[cdsalmons]

variable reluctance motor

Hi Peter,
I found this page on Variable reluctance motors. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like this simple design could be scaled up and be used like your design with some modifications. The page also has a small video HERE.

Also, I was wondering if you tested your HP before/after when you converted your off-the-shelf motor. I am sure it loses mechanical, but I was wondering what the approx. conversion rate is/was. I just ordered a 5hp motor to play with, so I just wondering about how much usable energy I may have after conversion.

Thanks for your help, Dustin

[Peter Lindemann]

Great Little Experiment

Hi Peter,
I found this page on Variable reluctance motors. I could be wrong, but it looks to me like this simple design could be scaled up and be used like your design with some modifications. The page also has a small video HERE.

Also, I was wondering if you tested your HP before/after when you converted your off-the-shelf motor. I am sure it loses mechanical, but I was wondering what the approx. conversion rate is/was. I just ordered a 5hp motor to play with, so I just wondering about how much usable energy I may have after conversion.

Thanks for your help, Dustin

Dustin,

Thanks for posting this link! It is obvious from this person's page, that he got the idea for this motor from some class he took years ago. His ingenuity in building the motor from plate steel is excellent. While his motor runs on a magnetic attraction process, his "concept" of the motor as an AC Synchronous Motor is very different than our project here at EMS Forum. First, he has to get the motor to "synchronize" with the pulses of current coming from his 555 timer. Here, we use an electronic commutator to "tell" the coil when to fire, due to the rotor position. Second, since he has conceived of his motor as an AC motor, he isn't doing anything with the "inductive collapse" energy. He doesn't show us a schematic, so we don't know how he is handling this, but the industry standard is to throw the energy away with a reverse diode, to protect the transistor. He doesn't mention this, because it is incidental to his AC Synchronous Motor concept. Third, his air-gap is quite large, so his total mechanical energy production is very low.

His model is a "concept" project for him, just to see that the idea works.... which it does.

Here, at EMS Forum, we have taken the "idea" of a "variable reluctance motor" and developed all of the interacting processes to a significant degree. Now, we are moving the design from "concept" to something practical. When Jetijs' motor is tested, it should show a much more interesting result.

Your question of whether I tested the hp before and after I converted the motor in my demo videos is the WRONG QUESTION!!!!!!!!! Those demonstrations were not about POWER but about FUNCTION. I showed that I took a standard, off-the-shelf electric motor, that normally operates with "Back EMF", and easily converted it to an electric motor that exhibited "No Back EMF".

If you want to understand all of these ideas, you should:

1) Buy my DVD Electric Motor Secrets where I demonstrate what Back EMF is, and how it robs the motor of its real efficiency. Just click on this link to go to my Products Page: Free Energy - Electric Motor Secrets, Bob Teal | Magnipulsion, Edwin Gray, Nikola Tesla, and other books & videos by Dr Peter Lindemann
2) Read this entire thread, from the beginning.

Thanks again for the link.

Peter

[cdsalmons]

Thanks Peter

Peter,
I have watched your video and thought it was great. I have seen a few others that you were in including the Keely Con in 2001. I love your work, and the direction that you are going in.

I mentioned the link because of its simplicity and somewhat resemblance to your first design. I know his circut would not work, I just like the idea of having one massive winging instead of 2-4.

The question of function has already been answered. You have already proven the application. I will be benchmarking my own, but I was wanting to see what your results were because I am sure that yours is more effecent then mine will be. I know that your primary focus was to show that the concept worked. I was just wondering if you measured how much work you could get out of it as a no back emf motor.

I hope that I did not offend you. I respect your work. I am just trying to learn as much as I can so I will be able to do my own testing and understand what I am doing verses what I am seeing.

It is very hard to get straight unbiased information. I have a general understanding of electricity. Most people in this feild learn conventional electronics then struggle to shift their mindset to this area. I am trying to learn as much as I can from You and John, then fill in what I don't understand with conventional teachings.

I don't know if I m on the right road or not, but atleast I am going forward. I am glad that I can join you on your path and learn from your prior knowledge. Thank you for making sense of the masters before you, Dustin

[sykavy]

Jetijs,

Seems like your cloth tape does not offer enough structural integrity to prevent the sharp edge of the stator from penetrating the wire insulation when you wind the coils that tight. This is why Lighty suggested the Mylar sheet over the square edges.

I've wound a lot of my stators more than once, so any of the ideas you are suggesting is a worthy experiment. I sometimes find if I mount the stator in a vise, and ask a friend to tension the wire feed, then I have both hands available to wind and position the two wires on each turn. Its a tedious operation, so just go slow and you can do it.

Any other suggestions from other builders are welcome.

Peter

I had an idea. Maybe you can make a piece of wood that is the same size and shape of the iron you are going to put your coil. (It will be only 30X) Once you do that you let it unwind but it will already have corners bent so that could help since it is so hard to bend.

[Jetijs]

Hi sykavy,
I think that your idea would just make everything harder, because a 90 degree bend is only on the first layer of the coil, then the bend is more ark like. Also it is alot harder to wind the coil if the wire is not straight.
And just a little update. I sanded off the sharp edges and covered all the edges along with the rough areas of the poles with two layers of thin epoxy resin. I must say that this works really well. Today I wound only 3 poles. The winding process is hard and takes a lot of time. Also if you wind the coil in bifilar fashion, you need help from another person, because the two wires tend to twist very much and you constantly need to straighten the wire out from both sides of the stator. Four hands makes this alot easier Each pole winding took about 35 minutes of time because we wanted to make the coil as tight as possible. Each pole has 25 turns of two gauge 16 wires, that is a whole of 7.5 meters. It would be hard to get the additional 5 turns on a coil, because there is not much space left and some of the turns could slip off to the rotor side. But I think 25 turns should work well. Each coil has a resistance of 0.5 Ohms and I did not once have to rewind them, the insulation is very good. I will wind the remaining pole tomorrow, then I will mark the coil ends so that later I can connect them in series so that both poles have different polarities. And then I will assemble the whole thing. Here is a picture:



Those black cloth stripes are there only temporary, I will remove them after all the coils will be finished.
Thank you,
Jetijs

[peper10]

Happy to hear from you!!

I was wondering what you can do with the windings,but,you seem to
overcome the problem anyway..
Nice to see it going foward and been done nicely..
You are an exemple for all of us Jetijs..
Happy you share it with us!!


peper10

[Peter Lindemann]

Awesome

Hi sykavy,
I think that your idea would just make everything harder, because a 90 degree bend is only on the first layer of the coil, then the bend is more ark like. Also it is alot harder to wind the coil if the wire is not straight.
And just a little update. I sanded off the sharp edges and covered all the edges along with the rough areas of the poles with two layers of thin epoxy resin. I must say that this works really well. Today I wound only 3 poles. The winding process is hard and takes a lot of time. Also if you wind the coil in bifilar fashion, you need help from another person, because the two wires tend to twist very much and you constantly need to straighten the wire out from both sides of the stator. Four hands makes this alot easier Each pole winding took about 35 minutes of time because we wanted to make the coil as tight as possible. Each pole has 25 turns of two gauge 16 wires, that is a whole of 7.5 meters. It would be hard to get the additional 5 turns on a coil, because there is not much space left and some of the turns could slip off to the rotor side. But I think 25 turns should work well. Each coil has a resistance of 0.5 Ohms and I did not once have to rewind them, the insulation is very good. I will wind the remaining pole tomorrow, then I will mark the coil ends so that later I can connect them in series so that both poles have different polarities. And then I will assemble the whole thing. Here is a picture:



Those black cloth stripes are there only temporary, I will remove them after all the coils will be finished.
Thank you,
Jetijs

Jetijs,

As usual, your work is excellent.

Peter

[Jetijs]

Good news everyone!
My motor is finished
The last coil was a real pain in the ass, we had to rewind it three times, because it turned out that somewhere on the edges the insulation was not thick enough. My fingers need a good rest after this. If someone shall try to build a motor like this, I suggest him seriously to consider making the stator so, that prewound coils could be used, because this coil winding process turned out to be the hardest part Nevertheless everything seems to work fine. I assembled the motor and turned the rotor to a "firing" position, then I took one series coil leads and just hit the battery terminals with them, the motor just took off (at least as far as it could without proper timing. My bearings have considerable friction and I was afraid that this would be a problem, because the rotor wont spin freely even for a little while if I spun it with hand. But when I made this one power pulse, the rotor made whole three or four revolutions. For now it seems that the motor has a lot of torque at least as far as I can tell with this simple test. Now I will need to work on the timing circuit. I will draw it tomorrow and post here so you can comment and maybe suggest something. So that is it for now.



Thanks,
Jetijs