Open Source Issues?

[Aaron]

I'm just opening up conversation about open sourcing energy technologies.

There are a lot of issues that come up, some justified and some are not and there are some inherent contradictions about the whole "mission" of "getting out to the world for free."

If you share something open source because you believe the information should be freely available - what does that mean to you?

If it is open sourced and freely available, then essentially, you just put it into the public domain. If that is the case, that means anyone can do anything they want with it including making it and selling it. That is the whole point of public domain - it then becomes public property for anyone to do anything they want with it.

If someone puts something into the public domain and their desire is that anyone can use the info for personal use, first of all, no such requirement can really be made because you can't make public domain information conditional. Once you give it up, you give it up.

If there are objections to someone taking the info and building and selling it, then do you plan on making it available to others by building and selling it yourself? If not, why not? Why should the grandmother at the end of the lane not benefit from it because she doesn't know how to use a soldering iron or anything else?

If someone wants to build it and sell it to people that cannot or will not built it themselves, how can anyone have an objection? The info is public domain and if there are such objections, that completely contradicts the entire claim that the information is being given out freely to the world, etc... for what? So that only people that know how to build it can benefit and nobody else? There is something intrinsically wrong with that. If that is the case, then maybe 1 out of 10,000 can benefit while claiming that it's given as a gift to the world.

If you want to share something and put it out for the world to see, the first thing to understand is that once you do that, you do not own it or have any claims to it anymore. This is just the reality of it. Anyone can do what they want with it including taking it, packaging it and selling it.

There can be ethical arguments, but that is a completely different issue from whether anyone can legally do it while not having a single thing that can be done about it. I think it is better to have the blessing of the originator just out of goodwill, but that is not a legal requirement - just a personal preference.

If you have something and want to "share it with the world" - please understand, you have no say so about what happens to it after that. If you think you should have a right to say something about it, then it comes down to the fact that you should not share it or you should patent it, which goes against, what some open source researchers claim to be against. If they're against patenting something, then they ought to be against having any claims to their own work by "giving it out for free."

I have seen this issue creep up once in a while on this forum and elsewhere - where someone freely shares their work, someone takes it as their own, doesn't give credit, tries to sell it, etc... It's happened to me several times over the last 5-6 years so I can speak from experience and I've seen it happen to a handful of members here and elsewhere.

What does everyone else think?

[Nick_Z]

Aaron:
Thank you for clearing that up for us.
I do agree with your statements, and feel that it's good to have it come directly from you, as one of the representatives this forum, and of its "mission" and purpose.

Nick_Z

[Mineko]

Agreed, things you put out for free are public domain and just like the term "give" means.. It's no longer yours, it's whoever received it.

The real problem is that we have people who abuse this.

[Peculian]

A Big Dilema

Greetings folks.

Me too, I think it is a Big Dilema: to "open source" something you have, or not .!? :\
I agree also there are people who could really benefit from ones generous offer
but there are also people who are eager to use a generous offer from someone who open sourced
his invention or whatever info useful, with pure and clear good intentions, and this
abuse, as we know is a really bad situation.
Lets get some real scenarios to think and make our mind if we will go the open source route or not.
For example:electricity.
to this day we are speaking and chatting through this and other forums, we know there are myriads, billions of good use for electricity.
But there are, also, the same, if not much more "bad uses" of electricity, and it seems
alot of people use it the unright way.
One of the great bad uses of electricity is its use in military systems, either supporting
weapon systems or electricity as a weapon itself (HAARP-like style etc).
another example is oil refinery.
Its true that oil serves humankind for decades now, but it`s first uses were(&are), as you all know for the military vehicles and weapons.

Or your inox-metal kitchen knife for example.
You can do work with it so you can make meals etc..
But what about the bad use of that simple tool ?
Really bad results. Dont you agree ? How many people have been killed by someone
hitting them with that simple innocent-looking tool ?

Internet is a big indicator as for what can be used a form of technology (in this case the World Wide Web) for good or bad.

Another example: The swis methernitha closed community:
They decided to not give details about their famous free energy device.
What do you think: was their choice wise or paranoid ?
What you, would have choosen to do with that device if it were your own invention ?
Of course you agree that many people could have changed their lifes for good.
But, also, many people could easily took the info and abuse with the invention in countless ways.

Tesla decided to not make public some of his most ineresting devices.
I bet he had really good reasons to do what he did:hide them from other people.

Everybody thinking or considering to open source his invention/technology
should think deeply and balance pros vs. cons before making a decision to that big step.
It depends alot on what are the inventors motives for keeping his tech closed
or to decide to open source it.
It might also be a win-win situation... .

Thoughts welcomed.

[Dave45]

If its truly free energy do the right thing, give freely, sure some smuck will try and sell it but we will be building it for our friends our neighbors anyone and everyone, making cd's with complete instructions with video's.
We need to make it happen as a people, a grass roots movement
Viva le revolution
99%

[totoalas]

If its truly free energy do the right thing, give freely, sure some smuck will try and sell it but we will be building it for our friends our neighbors anyone and everyone, making cd's with complete instructions with video's.
We need to make it happen as a people, a grass roots movement
Viva le revolution
99%

Cite you an example japan built factories in china and after a decade its all made in china
From cd to dvds and mobile phone at a cheaper price
They allways introduce high tech to the grass root level
Make one new gadget and china will flood the market
Thats how thrh play yhe game
In a forum we discussed and improve new ideas
And as you said for a friend and relatives to enjoy
No choice once you open source

[RAMSET]

The Price of Nice

Aaron
Thank you for opening up a discusion here.
An Organization which relies heavily on Good PR in an extremely competative market is unknowingly contributing to something the average 5 yr old knows is wrong to do regardless of the "Laws".

Slayer felt safe sharing without the law to protect him here
he just asked that it be kept "private".

All things considered .

What would you do?

Thx
Chet

[boguslaw]

IMHO I would open source everything I could but in reality there should be in different society unfortunately. When there would be no poverty or limited resources and everybody would work on passionate ideas for better world and every person benefits. Do you know such place ? Do you know such society where you do not struggle to get food for another day not mention some electronic parts to finish prototype , collecting them in MONTHS ?

So if inventor will be treated the same or better as a famous actor, then every idea will be open sourced.

[RAMSET]

I like that tune

Boguslaw
Funny you should say that,

For in this particular circumstance we are talking about a "star" Albeit an undiscovered star. [oh how the world loves that story !:'}

And this is EXACTLY how to proceed.
Perhaps if we put the first footprint on that path ,the respect you speak of
will actually have a chance to become a reality?

See in this case there is more to Slayer than a circuit, think about the rest of the story?

@Boguslaw right here right now your vision for the future is being formed
by the men in these forums.

I will be so bold as to say.

A star is born ...

One that needs our help so the path less traveled
can get a few more footprints on it.

Besides the world has always needed Hero's
something to believe in !

Thx
Chet

[Zardox]

If I ever truly discover something that will benifit others I will put it out there for everyone to see and use. At that point I know that some people might well twist it and use it in ways I don't like or agree with.
So you have to ask yourself what are your motivations. If its money and greed then you are not going to share it.
If your ego cannot stand someone else getting credit or not giving you credit then you probably shouldn't share it.
If you want to advance the world and help people then getting it out there for all to use is in my mind the best option.
I have seen first hand in industry where one company uses an idea that was patented by another company only to find after long and expensive litigation that the patent was not really worth much. Unless you are one of the very large deep pocket corporations the courtrooms more often only benefit the lawyers.
And by the way even the big stars have people singing karoake at the local bar down the street.

[RAMSET]

Your looking at the wrong star

Zardox
The star is the concept

To have the Passion ,the will ,the desire and the Skill. to put your personal safety and well being ahead of your desire for fame and fortune..To go out of your way to teach others about this passion.
to spend countless hours of your personal time and miniscule
resources to help make this world better for all....



Slayer is a man who does the right thing and lives by example....

This is not about patents and copyrights

its about moments like this when that Passion has an opportunity to be shown some grattitude......

What example will we set ?
?
Thx
Chet
PS
I will not be posting in this thread again, we'll never change the way things are if all we do is type.
lots to do.............

[Joit]

My Opinion, when you share something Open source, it should got the same rights and Status as a protected or patented Device or Circuit.
Means, when you put something into Public Domain as Open Source Technology, noone should be able to make Money with it by selling Plans or anthing from it without agreement from the last main Inventor(s) or get punished.
It works the one way, why should'nt it work the other Way.

But you see there the Lobby behind, what try to keep her Sales concept at all cost alive.

[Michael John Nunnerley]

Look at the numbers

At the time of this post there are 332 people veiwing EF of which 50 ONLY are members, the rest 282 guests!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For me I will never post anymore my hard work, I will find a way to put it into the public domain, built correctly and at a cheap price, protected from the one's who just want to rip people off, and yes I would have something in there for me, after all I was the inventor, at least pay my costs and a wage.

Mike
P.S.
Just under two years ago I asked for help here when I had a problem with my son, out of XXXXXXXX members here only 5 gave me support, dosn't say much of a community spirit does it?

[Bob Smith]

I guess I would have to agree with Dave - that ideally it's really about improving the lot of humankind.

I run a website with a lot of downloadable educational resources stipulating that they are freely available for non-profit use. I'm paid for my work, and to put it online for use in the school system that employs me. I see that it is being downloaded all over the English-speaking world. I have decided that while I'm paid for my work, I might as well share it to help other people out who might not have the time or expertise to prepare these kinds of resources for their schools and classrooms. I'm aware that some people may try to take what I've done and publish it and make money off it. But that's a risk I've accepted, hoping that like Dave says, it'll help make things better for people who might use it. However, in the event that I retire or leave my job, I will likely put together more resources and a publisher. The labourer deserves his wages.

It's good we have our eyes open about putting information on any public forum. Not everybody joins forums for altruistic reasons. For some, it may help improve their skills and business. But when the reality of money and control of resources/profits enters the picture, people do cherry pick technological developments to either suppress or profit from other people's innovative work. Those who engage in legally permissible but morally objectionable conduct like this know better, and have to live with their consciences. It's a mixed world, and I still think enough of us have to continue trying to do the right thing, perhaps being 'cunning as serpents, but gentle as doves' to use the biblical expression. Perhaps attaching a creative commons licence to one's work might be part of the solution. A colleague of mine in the educational field is now doing this with his work posted online.

I would hope that Slayer and others who've had their work and name purloined will have the creative juices to continue innovating, and if need be, to find a way to support themselves with the fruits of their labour and talents.

My thanks to all of you whose free sharing of talent has helped me learn so much.

Bob

[Aaron]

freely giving without an agenda

Creative Commons - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've seen some comments before about using Create Commons licenses to protect technology, but from what I've read, it doesn't even apply.

The Creative Commons agreements are based on copyright laws for pictures, text, drawings, etc... you could use it to protect your own personal diagram of a schematic for example and give people the right to use it as long as they give you credit for it, etc...

But that in no way actually protects the technology that the diagrams, schematics, etc... describe.

I just found this: Patent Tools Public Discussion - CC Wiki
But that only applies to someone's IP if they ALREADY have a patent.

There are obviously a lot of heated opinions about patents by those in the "free energy" field but the reality is that at least for the United States, if it wasn't for the patent office, we'd still be riding horses. If someone can't reap the rewards of one's own efforts, they're not going to risk putting all their time, money, effort and resources into developing something when someone else can simply come along, steal it and give back nothing in return. And anyone that feels they're automatically entitled to other people's work is shameful and only reflects a low self esteem issue, nothing more.

My own opinion is that you put put something in the public domain, you might as well kiss it goodbye because you have no legal recourse to do anything about anyone else taking it and doing what they want with it, including making all the money they want without giving you a dime.

Also, I feel that if someone wants to share some technology publicly, it should be done without any agenda attached and should be given with blessings that it will create prosperity for others - meaning the attitude should be that of gratitude that someone is able to make it into a business. Not that I agree with how it was done in regards to that person taking Slayer's designs and raising money with attitude attached to it as well as he is doing. But, if something is shared "for the good of all", people that can't build it themselves need to be able to buy it from someone and if you're not going to make it and sell it, someone has to so why have an issue with it? If there is an issue with that, that means it wasn't given freely and you expect only people that can build it should benefit. That's kind of selfish in my opinion.

One of my closest mentors that died a few years ago had a very goodwill attitude towards his own technology. He has invented many things throughout his life - world's largest embroidery press, fail safe pull pins on fire extinguishers, the first net playpen's for kids, and many medical devices. One medical device's patent finally expired and the Koreans, Russians and Swiss all created their own knockoff version of his device. Instead of feeling that he should be entitled to what those companies are earning off his own invention with an expired patent and can't do anything about it anyway - his attitude was "Thank God! Even more people will have access to it!" And even later on when he was partners in a company selling some medical devices, he started to sell the Swiss made unit because he liked it better than his own and never expected a penny in royalties from the Swiss company.

So if someone open sourcing information "for the betterment of the world" has an attitude any different than that, in my opinion, they are being completely inauthentic and have an agenda and never really freely gave it to begin with.