Lorentz force questions

[aladinlamp]

Hi

i have 2 questions regarding Lorentz force

1. Does Lorentz force create opposite and equal reaction force acting on magnets, as you can see on attached picture <?


2.Does conductor moving in homogeneous magnetic field consume more power than static condtuctor to achieve same continuous amperage? Does the wire movement increase power input <>?

Thanx for clarification

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Aladinlamp,

Hi

i have 2 questions regarding Lorentz force

1. Does Lorentz force create opposite and equal reaction force acting on magnets, as you can see on attached picture <?


2.Does conductor moving in homogeneous magnetic field consume more power than static condtuctor to achieve same continuous amperage? Does the wire movement increase power input <>?

Thanx for clarification

Hello Aladinlamp,

1. Does Lorentz force create opposite and equal reaction force acting on magnets, as you can see on attached picture <?

On question one(1), it does not specify IF that current carried by conductor is by external Input...or the current generated because of the induction according to moving one of the two, magnetic field or conductor.
However, IF it is an external current fed to conductor...then you vary the Force depending on direction You are Inputting...
And if current is generated by Induction, then positively yes, it will oppose to originating/generating directional force of either one related to the second..(magnetic field or conductor).
Therefore...if you are feeding an external current and it does oppose to the one induced...then yes, but the "equality" depends on the quantity of the two...

2.Does conductor moving in homogeneous magnetic field consume more power than static condtuctor to achieve same continuous amperage? Does the wire movement increase power input <>?

The same issue arises on question two,"conductor consume more power than..."...power from where?...external (fed from outer source) or internal (generated by induction moving conductor within a magnetic field) ?

"It depends", in order to answer...like I wrote on 1, above...



But in general terms...and relating to Lorentz...looking at the picture you have shown below...North facing South...and a conductor traveling "sandwiched" between (centered)...is a Classic One...that defines Straight/Symmetrical Magnetic Patterns...when in reality... it DOES NOT need to be seen ONLY that way...as the ONLY WORKING Model possible in 132 years...

[IMG][/IMG]

North-South could be right next to each others,side by side (As shown in Picture below)...and still generating a strong magnetic field...BUT there... will NOT BE a straight vector of force (Lorentz)...between them two...but a "CURVE"...and still conductor will get induced...by either one moving related to the other one...
BUT that concept...is Asymmetrical...and linear Vectors, or rigid Tensors...will definitively not work to calculate the Forces...

[IMG][/IMG]


Regards


Ufopolitics

[aladinlamp]

hi

let me clarify

im looking into ideal scenario, when conductor is sandwitched between 2 magnets, assuming magnets are long and large enough to consdire the magnetic field homogeneous


also in homogeneous magnetic field moving wire should not induce any amperage, it happens only in changing magnetic field , this is not the case

wire is fed by continuous flat dc current

[Farmhand]

If you look at page 468 of the document below I think it indicates that there
would be no Lenz effect on the moving conductor in a homogeneous field.

http://ia600302.us.archive.org/16/items/inventionsresear00martiala/inventionsresear00martiala.pdf

But in the above example of the disc surrounded
completely by the polar surfaces, there is no shifting of the magnetic
action, no change whatever, as far as we know, and yet
rotation ensues. Here, then, ordinary considerations do not
apply ; we cannot even give a superficial explanation, as in ordinary
motors, and the operation will be clear to us only when we
shall have recognized the very nature of the forces concerned,
and fathomed the mystery of the invisible connecting mechanism.

Considered as a dynamo machine, the disc is an equally interesting
object of study. In addition to its peculiarity of giving
currents of one direction without the employment of commutating
devices, such a machine differs from ordinary dynamos in
that there is no reaction between armature and field. The armature
current tends to set up a magnetization at right angles to
that of the field current, but since the current is taken off uniformly
from all points of the periphery, and since, to be exact,
the external circuit may also be arranged perfectly symmetrical
to the field magnet, no reaction can occur. This, however, is
true only as long as the magnets are weakly energized, for when
the magnets are more or less saturated, both magnetizations at
right angles seemingly interfere with each other.
For the above reason alone it would appear that the output of
such a machine should, for the same weight, be much greater
than that of any other machine in which the armature current
tends to demagnetize the field. The extraordinary output of the
Forbes unipolar dynamo and the experience of the writer confirm
this view.

One thing i think many people overlook is that even if no Lenz effect is
present the output would still be relative to the input. ie. if it takes 100 Watts
to turn the Machine the output is not infinite, it is still relative to the
excitation of the machine.

Cheers

[aladinlamp]

ok , can we stick to my question, to my picture

2 magnets, 1 wire fed with DC

when wire is not moving 1 amp dc is flowing
when wire is moving 1 amp dc is also flowing


will the movement caused by lorenz force change the power input (in this case voltage) compared to scenario when the wire is not allowed to move ><?

[Farmhand]

It depends, where is the force for the movement coming from ?

1. If the entire conductor is in the field I would say no.
If the conductor is not in a closed loop circuit I would say no.
If only part of the conductor is in the field I would say yes but only if the conductor is in a closed loop circuit.

2. Impossible to say without more information. No current will flow unless there is a closed loop.
If the conductor is part of a closed loop supply and load circuit then I would say yes it would affect the voltage, but exactly how would be relevant to the setup.

If you move an open conductor through a magnetic field it will produce a voltage only.

If you move a closed loop conductor through a magnetic field the voltage will
cause a current as well.

Why don't you do the experiment ?

Cheers

[Allcanadian]

Hello aladinlamp

1. Does Lorentz force create opposite and equal reaction force acting on magnets, as you can see on attached picture?

Yes

2.Does conductor moving in homogeneous magnetic field consume more power than static condtuctor to achieve same continuous amperage?

No

Does the wire movement increase power input?

No

I understand your confusion here as the information you are getting is contradictory and I think that is the problem. Now look at the picture again, is the field homogeneous?, well no it is not hence the contradiction.

If we replace the wire with another magnet will it move?, and where will it move to?. It will move to the edge of the stationary field of lower field density which is exactly what the wire will do and then it will stop moving.
We should remember that the wire and the current flow in it is not the motivating "force" here. The magnetic field of the wire in itself interacting with the external magnetic field is the only motivating force available.

To answer your question outside the context of the picture posted, will the wire move in a perfectly homogeneous and infinitely large magnetic field?. I do not believe it would because the motion relates to the field density. In reality there are no lines of force and we are dealing with a gradient of force due to a difference in field density.

Now if we are saying the field is perfectly homogeneous then what we are really saying is that there is no gradient thus there is no gradient of force to act upon. It is like saying will a balloon filled with helium rise in the middle of outer space, well no there is no "rise" because there is no "up" or "down", there is no motion because there are no forces which could cause motion.

Clear as mud, lol.
Regards
AC

[aladinlamp]

I understand your confusion here as the information you are getting is contradictory and I think that is the problem. Now look at the picture again, is the field homogeneous?, well no it is not hence the contradiction.

i made new picture to better illustrate what i mean homogenous.
Of course in the close vicinity of wire there is field distortion and interaction between 2 fields, but before and after this point, the magnetic field between N and S is stable, homogenous

If we replace the wire with another magnet will it move?, and where will it move to?. It will move to the edge of the stationary field of lower field density which is exactly what the wire will do and then it will stop moving.
We should remember that the wire and the current flow in it is not the motivating "force" here. The magnetic field of the wire in itself interacting with the external magnetic field is the only motivating force available.

i dont think you can replace single wire in this orientation with permanent magnet, it will have different lines of force, it will not behave same

single wire has only one way spin around conductor, resulting in up/down force interaction

To answer your question outside the context of the picture posted, will the wire move in a perfectly homogeneous and infinitely large magnetic field?. I do not believe it would because the motion relates to the field density. In reality there are no lines of force and we are dealing with a gradient of force due to a difference in field density.

Now if we are saying the field is perfectly homogeneous then what we are really saying is that there is no gradient thus there is no gradient of force to act upon. It is like saying will a balloon filled with helium rise in the middle of outer space, well no there is no "rise" because there is no "up" or "down", there is no motion because there are no forces which could cause motion.

i think wire can move in homogenous and stable magnetic field

once current starts flowing, field is distorted at that point, not homogenous, resulting in new forces acting on the system
new magnetic field around wire creates "gradient" , non homogeneous area, where forces can act

[shylo]

Uncanny timing

Hi All,
I've just been running tests ,with coils, trying to figure out the opposite force that's created by inducing flow in a conductor.
With no coil in place the rotor will freewheel for 6 mins.
Put an unloaded coil in ,still 6 mins
Put steel laminates in the hole of the coil ,reduces freewheel in half
I think the only reason these fields mean anything is if you introduce steel in the construction
They gave the same output, but the steel one took more energy to create..because it used the same amount of revoulotions, but ate them up in a shorter time ~1/3
That is it reduced the motion of the rotor by 2/3rds , to achieve the same result
Tis the Season
shylo

[garrys]

Your magnetic fields are out of sync by 180 degrees and so there is no reaction as there is no action to originate it. This would be equally true if there was only one magnet. If you look at your wire as a coil you are moving the magnets or wire past the magnets in the same manner as moving magnets past the side of a coil. Even if this was wrong any action upon the wire by one magnetic field would be equally and oppositly countered by the other.

[Allcanadian]

@aladinlamp

Of course in the close vicinity of wire there is field distortion and interaction between 2 fields, but before and after this point, the magnetic field between N and S is stable, homogenous

I would agree it would appear to be however I remember running into a little trouble with a man named Earnshaw, Earnshaw's Theorem, when building and testing passive magnetic bearings and levitators. The problem I found was that there is no stable field position because the gradient by definition is always changing. I did not believe this initially so I then built very precise magnetometers and mapped the fields and found in fact I was wrong, there is no stable nor homogenous field anywhere, it is always changing everywhere to some extent.

i dont think you can replace single wire in this orientation with permanent magnet, it will have different lines of force, it will not behave same

I would agree, that was a bad example on my part.

i think wire can move in homogenous and stable magnetic field
once current starts flowing, field is distorted at that point, not homogenous, resulting in new forces acting on the system
new magnetic field around wire creates "gradient" , non homogeneous area, where forces can act

I understand where your coming from and it is easy to believe there are N and S poles, that there are lines of force in the magnetic field because this is what we have been taught.
I believe it was Faraday who invented the term "field" as well as the concept of "lines of force". That is he invented these terms to better describe his perception of things so it was easier to understand them. However they are not real, they do not exist in nature and they are simply another form of notation like up/down, N/S, positive/negative, right/left nothing more.

It may help to ask the question --what is a magnetic field, not what it does, what is it fundamentally?. You have never been given an answer, think of matter as closely spaced ping-pong balls bobbing up and down on the surface of a lake. The changing wave height represents energy and the balls or particles are constantly absorbing and radiating this energy in discrete packages know to Einstein as Quanta(ie. quantus: how much). They oscillate in time with the external waves and if we interact with the balls they may become out of time with the incoming/outgoing waves and the balls send out their own waves which create an interference pattern within the external waves, this interference pattern is what we call a "field".

It is interesting to note that this "field" is not something in itself and it is a property of something already present. This "field" does not exist in reality and it is simply the phase differential between incoming and outgoing EM waves relating fundamentally to matter and space. How can an interference pattern flow?, how can an interference pattern have lines of force?, how can an interference pattern have poles?, how can it be stable or homogenous when fundamentally it is defined as a product of constant change?.

You see we have taken something relatively simple and given it imaginary properties which do not exist, we have made something simple into something so complex it makes no sense at all. Nature is not complex only our perception of it is.

Regards
AC

[shylo]

Ping pong

Hi AC, that's interesting never thought of it like that before
But if you attach 2 magnets to springs ,put them face to face so they are attracting each other, but the springs are working against the magnetic attraction, keeping them from joining together,(strong enough springs of course)
Is this not a form of stored energy with no input and with no interraction,other than the initial set-up that is??
The springs trying to pull the magnets apart , and the magnets trying to pull together?
Changing the temperature of the springs ,hot/cold should create motion.
Sorry just an idea that popped into my head
shylo