Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[Cadman]

Hi MM,

It's not doubt on my part, it's just difficult for me to understand part G. Even after I finish it and it's working I'm sure someone will still have to explain it to me.

I still don't get what limits the amperage.

Regards,
CM

[seaad]

@Hanon
" I think you have made your toroidal test in a static circuit with DC input. "

No I used my multimeter [AMPROBE 37XR-A] inductance measurement function and it sends out about 200 Hz or 1kz (square) to detect actual inductance. AC is needed.


@ Ufopolitics
I think this variant of part G (toroid) with "coil 1" (brush side, primary )
between (+) and (+) and "coil 2" (secondery) between the same (+) and (+) on the ohter side of the toroid acts as a bucked transformer with the same CW (or CCW) all over the core.
No inductance only variable resistance from the Cu-coils via the brush to (+) and (+). And almost a shorcut resistance between the (+) and (+) on the "secondary" side.

However, I hope I'm wrong. Would be great with a working part G!


@bistander
" A coil will have inductance regardless of AC, DC, or no current, but will have zero reactance with DC (steady state). Inductance becomes a factor only when current changes. "
Right. Well said! YOU helped me there with my bad english

Arne

[marathonman]

Self explanatory








MM

[marathonman]

impedance

Cadman;
I hope the previous post clarified your confusion but if not i will explain.

DC does not have inductive reactance only AC does so that limits the way Figuera could vary the currant in his device.

at the time of Figuera's build there was only a few ways to limit DC currant.
1. use of a rheostat, that got hot from wasting of power.

2. the use of magnetic field to control currant, not widely known but to a few individuals.

so what figuera had to do is give his DC some AC like qualities to manipulate currant. as the brush rotates around the coil/core, the amount of winding's and core material changes. this causes the core saturation to increase or decrease for set N and set S according to brush position on the coil.

as the saturation of the core increases or decreases the inductive reactance or impedance to currant flow changes also. so when the brush is at set N the impedance to currant flow is very low and very high to currant flow at set S thus varying as the brush rotates as does the internal magnetic fields in a continuous dynamically controlled rotating vortex system.

at the same time while all this is happening, the currant is slit into two separate feeds and it acts like an inductor storing power in the form of a magnetic field for later (millisecond) use.

Hanon;

i am using what Figuera built. but i just so happen to be building both, brush, brushless part G so i was making them the same. if one was to build part G with brush, the specs i laid out must be followed but if transistor part G is built, one might use common wire like 10 awg with plenty of room for loops of to find correct currant reduction.


MM

[hanon1492]

One question about part G:
Why the stored energy in the receding electromagnets will return to the toroidal winding if at the same time the electromagnet outlets are connected to the Negative Pole of the battery, which is at zero voltage? Won't it tend to migrate toward the less potential place, which is the battery itself?

Are we completely sure that the electromagnet outlets must be wired to the battery, and not to any other place?

While part G have some advantages, there are some features which wont be resolved until the first part G will be built and described openly. Sometimes I think that we are ignoring the simple way described in the patent:

[hanon1492]

I still don't get what limits the amperage.

Cadman,

In this link you may see how changing inductance the current will change as a result. It is a good numerical example and worth a reading about the principle of magnetic amplifiers. These are other method to avoid wasting energy in the resistors.

Magnetic amplifiers

Methods of changing inductance

[Ufopolitics]

Part G is a "Magnetic Pump"...

One question about part G:
Why the stored energy in the receding electromagnets will return to the toroidal winding if at the same time the electromagnet outlets are connected to the Negative Pole of the battery, which is at zero voltage? Won't it tend to migrate toward the less potential place, which is the battery itself?

Hello Hanon,

Let me start by refreshing what a Pump is based on...A Pump have a High Pressure outlet and another terminal which is an Inlet or Return side, when pump reaches operational speed this inlet becomes a vacuum or low pressure return end.

The Part G Toroid Geometry is exactly "a Magnetic Pump" with Two Outlets, the big difference is that these two outlets are not fixed or stationary like in a typical liquid pump, but they are dependable on the position of the positive brush, so, these two outlets "alternate" functions.

When brush is before the outlet, and running towards it, that outlet is generating current pressures, pushed by the approach of brush (look at brush as a piston), as brush passes that now outlet terminal, that outlet becomes a vacuum, or suction as the other terminal becomes a pressure...and so on.

The negative from battery is a static zero voltage, but it don't have the vacuum capability to suck currents back in, like the spinning part G does.

The receding electromagnet have a Spatial Magnetic Field which is contracting, not expanding, and it acts exactly as a returning piston, exhausting currents pressures from the back of it, and at this precise moment, the part G is opening that terminal as a vacuum to suck all that current pressures inwards.

It is not a matter of zero potential, but of positive-negative pressures being connected in a timely sync fashion.

Are we completely sure that the electromagnet outlets must be wired to the battery, and not to any other place?

Again, the hi-lo pressures "traffic" are taking place at the positive terminals, or high side...not at the low, negative ends, so I consider they are just fine by being connected to the negative terminals

While part G have some advantages, there are some features which wont be resolved until the first part G will be built and described openly. Sometimes I think that we are ignoring the simple way described in the patent:

I agree there with you...and I wonder why such a very simple, resistor based model with just one brush and a contact cylinder ran by a small motor, exactly as described in the Figuera's Patent ...have not being built as of now...proving the main concept from this Patent works perfectly well.


Regards



Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

Part G has been around for a while...

Hello to All,

I believe some deeper thoughts as reviews about Part G would be somehow useful to understand it...

The fact is that "Part G" has been around for a while...not exactly doing what it is doing here...but the main concepts have been there...

Take a look again at the Armature of a Lap Winding Motor or a DC Generator Armature (lower image)...:

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Doesn't that pic above (from a DC Generator "Field" Armature) looks exactly the same as when we "tap" each groups of windings on the wound Toroid Core G then take it to a commutator to be brushed by our Figuera's Positive Brush?...except...it does not have a shaft...

The only radical difference is that our Toroid Part G is Static...but have Dynamic Virtual Fields spinning...so, it is not "a physical" armature-rotor...but a Virtual Magnetic Field Rotor...

And of course, the Geometry of the core is not completely closed, because of having teeth to hold wires for easier winding... as Magnetic Angles of Projections may vary depending on stator fields direct interactions, etc, etc...but in essence it is exactly the same concept...a Magnetic Field Rotary Pump.

If we get our wound Toroid Part G wired to the commutator...and add a shaft and bearings...plus some static fields around it...it will definitively spin...just like any Motor out there have been doing it for 200 years.

In any Brushed Motor* out there...we have been "holding static" their magnetic fields generated at their armatures-rotors...so the iron develops a rotational speed through a massless, weightless and transparent Static Magnetic Field...

Basically...Part G is the reversed engineered concept from most Electrodynamic Machines...or could we say..."the other way around?"...depending on which one was there first...

The Only Part that is completely new and different here...is the way Part G is utilized on this project which is a completely different approach...As Part G converts the Rotational Magnetic Fields into a Currents Pump with Two Alternating Terminals, as the generating Fields are in opposition, and not in attraction...all this is very, very new and we must be very thankful to Marathonman for so altruistically sharing it here with all of Us in the open.

These are all facts and reality guys...

Regards to All


Ufopolitics

* I wrote specifically a "Brushed Motor" since it is the perfect and simplest example to cite here...as there are so many different types which get more complex as their functions vary.

[Cadman]

Cadman;
I hope the previous post clarified your confusion but if not i will explain.

Much clearer now, thank you sir. There is much going on besides the obvious.

Starting to wind the toroids now. I think I will test first with 24vac then switch to rectified DC and compare, just to see the difference.

CM

[marathonman]

Self induced confusion

Hanon;

As the electromagnet is seceding being shoved out of the secondary into it's own core, high pressure is developed.
since the back side of the coil is connected to part G and part G's inlet set S is lower pressure, the currant has no opposition to flow to part G's core. besides the fact that all currants flow in the same direction.

the electromagnets outlets are NOT connected to the battery, they are connected to part G. the inlet is connected to the power supply. not to mention part G becomes the power supply after supply is removed.

Quote; "While part G have some advantages, there are some features which wont be resolved until the first part G will be built and described openly. Sometimes I think that we are ignoring the simple way described in the patent:"

and what features might you be referring to. or do you even have a clue what features are suppose to be here from the patent.

part G is the simple way, just because "YOU" are completely lost with part G doesn't mean others are. if you think you can build part G in a more simpler way go right ahead, knowing the patent says it is just a drawing in it's elementary form to facilitate understanding of operation.

it blow my mind that you use to harp about building the Figuera device according to the patent but in reality you are the one wanting to deviate from it.
you have always tried to take an easy road on this device and while i or any one else wont stop you, you will be making a grave mistake in your attempt.
the quote you posted from the patent introduced NO NEW FEATURES as described by you. wow, look at all those features i missed, how dare i miss those..... get real Hanon. i honestly think i am not missing to much my friend, good luck.

cadman;

I am glad your understanding is much clearer and also the post from hanon about magnetic amplifier is a little different then the figuera device, but the same principle is being utilized.
controlled saturation of the core.


UFOP;

Quote; "Basically...Part G is the reversed engineered concept from most Electrodynamic Machines"

You are very correct as Figuera studied them intensely. not only part G but the entire device was altered using his present day AC generators as a basis to go from.

the Dynamic Virtual Fields spinning you are referring to sounds exactly like Tesla's static ring generator. there are many wonderful aspect to part G and a testament as to the genius of Figuera.

i personally think his modeling of a rotating dynamo to static dynamo is perfect in every way and down right amazing.

as i see it, the primaries are not only virtual field movers but currant pumps while part G's rotating magnetic field is a necessity for field integrity, it's opposing virtual fields are the water Tank and faucet in which water flows.
the only difference is the attraction mode is reversed to repulsion mode to accommodate dynamic currant manipulation in unison and feed separation which otherwise would not have taken place.

earlier i was reading this thread at the start. after a few pages i had to quit, it's amazing how far off they were.


MM

[Elcheapo]

Basics

Since no one has as yet succeeded with a working inductive "G" unit, I'll still
be concentrating on the basic demo device of MM.
If I could get a cop=3 like he did, I'd be telling the whole wide world (HA HA).
My 2 primaries are each 150 turns of 19awg. The one secondary is 300 turns of 19awg.

After reading some of MM's rules, I found a few things I have to correct.

1. Secondary turns are twice that of the primary.
So have to add more primary turns to equal or exceed secondary turns.

2. Core cross-section only half that of MM.
May have to stack more "C" sections onto core.

3. Using wrong amperage intensity values for pulsing the primaries.
Just need to re-adjust amperage-intensity pots so that low values are
never less than half that of the highs.

I'm wondering how frequency affects these units?

Ya, still a lotta work to do.

[hanon1492]

the electromagnets outlets are NOT connected to the battery, they are connected to part G. the inlet is connected to the power supply. not to mention part G becomes the power supply after supply is removed.

This is new. So now the power supply is connected to the electromagnets inlet . It is not connected to the rotary brush of the toroid as told until now. New features are evolving each day.

it blow my mind that you use to harp about building the Figuera device according to the patent but in reality you are the one wanting to deviate from it.

You opened the moment for the Truth:

1- The patent is not describing any toroid with variable nductance. Not at all. I do not know where you read that. The patent just describes a "resistencia" ( translated as resistor or resistance) varying from a maximun to a minimun. Your part G is not described so it is not in the patent. The patent just used the word cylindrical commutator, and even it is stated that is made of insulated material. It is cylindrical just to make the 14 contact required. But the patent describes a pure ohmic resistor system. Your part G may work, but do not tell me that I try to deviate from the patent itself. It is you the one who is pushing the forum user to believe that part G is the bible and is written in the patent itself. But that is false. It may work. Or not. Currently I am not sure if you have either a clear idea of your part G. Three days ago you thought that it was a straight core. Now that wont work fine, need to be a closed core. You do not know how many turns it needs, you do not know the wire diameter: first it was 1/4" rectangular diameter, but later that was just in case of using brush, if used with transistor it was just awg 10. You not clarified in the ele tromagnets are connected in series or in parallel. I think it may work but please let me express that IMHO you are quite far from a working part G and much adjustments will have to come. And it is a pity because if the current design for part G does not work as you expect then many users will test it and it may get bad results into their generators, and they may stop continuing into this project. This is my oppinion: you should not be speaking as a fact about something that you have not even built once. Maybe it need further redesigns...and that could be a big trouble if you spoil the work of others who are following your current design features

2- The only person who knows exactly about a working part G is your mentor. Yes your mentor. The OU forum user who instructed you in all you know. In less that a week in that forum you passed from shouting stupid theories to know everything right about Figuera design. It was not thousands of hour of hard study what reach you to the right design. It was just a couple of days with some emails from your mentor which reach you there. So, everyone, when you do this to MM, you really should be doing that to his mentor . If part G finally work you already know who is behind this great idea. I think I needed to tell this in order to give credit to those who deserve it.

.

the quote you posted from the patent introduced NO NEW FEATURES as described by you. wow, look at all those features i missed, how dare i miss those..... get real Hanon. i honestly think i am not missing to much my friend, good luck.

Thank you for your kind words. As always from you... one week ago you called me a saturday night bitc*, post that you deleted later maybe after rethinking it the great thoughts that comes out your mind.

You are fed up because I posted the patent paragraph which describe the generator commutator, and this is because you do not like that I show the EXACT words used in the patent. I did that to show it precisely. Specially for those who have not read the patent or did it quite a long time. Please everyone, read the patent paragraph I posted and replicate it. I am not asking for following my advice. Just replicate what you read there and please tell if that is the toroidal part G.

If the patent were omitting the description of a toroidal core, and its winding, and its connections, and its physical principle but the device was really using those features then the patent would have been invalidated. Patent has a requisite for sufficiency of disclosure, and if it is not fulfill then the patent may be revoked.

Is your toroidal part G described in the patent? No. Then it is not there. Period.



I will be happy if it woks and it optimizes the generator but do not tell everyone that your part G is in the patent and do not tell that I am deviating from the patent. I do not admit it. You are the one who is manipulating the forum directions to promote your invention. Well...not exactly your invention... I know you are doing with good heart but at the end what you are doing it is attacking those as myself who promote to do it with resistors because it is simpler. Simpler to understand, simpler to tune and simpler to correct errors if done.

I just say: first build one part G, refine every detail and then promote it. But do not promote it first, later refine the details , and later build it.

I have said in this post all I needed to say. I wont go into further arguments about your next replies to this post, no matter what it may get as replies.


"You will know The Truth, and The Thuth shall me make you free" (John 8:32)

[marathonman]

stupidity at its finest

You simply amaze me, if for one minute that the patent is not what i say it is, then you are more ignorant then i originally suspected.
again it is just a drawing to facilitate the understanding of the device so obviously you have to say the resistance is present but because it says resistance doesn't mean it's an F-IN resistror.

QUOTE;"But the patent describes a pure ohmic resistor system"
OMG ! i would love to see how your little brain came up with that one. since you don't use it there is no telling. total F-in HOGWASH.

And for your incorrect information about Doug, the information that i have received from him was over a period of almost a year. and since then i have put in thousand or hours of study into the figuera device. this is fact and can not be refuted even by the low life attacker you are.

sure i got some information from Doug but not all, some of which i sent to you. even though you did not believe or understand ANY OF IT. now i see how ungrateful you really are back stabber . i have repeatedly referred to him on many occasion just not by name, giving thanks.

the fact that you posted the patent quotes has absolutely nothing to do about it. you keep throwing the patent in my face when your so ignorant to even understand it. you still can't put two and two together no mater what you try even after years of claiming to have read it.

SORRY FELLA BUT PART G I AM DESCRIBING IS THE PATENT, FOOL. EVEN AS DOUG BUILT ACCORDING TO THE PATENT.

thank you hanon for degrading this forum, this thread and your pathetic attempt to belittle me in front of my peers. all because i said you don't understand pert G. WOW !

your ignorance of the figuera device has shown in clear view for god and everyone to see and those pathetic lies need to come down immediately. i will not stoop to people of your level any longer.

YOU OWE ME AN APOLOGY HANON ! just because i said you don't understand part G and harped about purity DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BELITTLE ANYONE ON THIS FORUM.

ever notice your the only one complaining.

Elcheapo;

Part G can not be built over night according to the patent. while i am fairly far in my build, i see a few more weeks as 12 hr shifts are going to kill me at work.

also please be aware of core saturation when adding more winding's. this calc tool will help in the estimate of winding's for primaries. add 200 for relative permeability. and i am sure you realize more winding on secondary will result in high volts and low amps.
CalcTool: Solenoid properties calculator



MM

[Ufopolitics]

The Basic Principle...

Hello to All,

I believe the MAIN PRINCIPLE that we could never deviate from, on this 1908 Patent from Figuera is:

The Fact that he mainly FOCUS on the EXPANSION-CONTRACTION relationship of the VIRTUAL MAGNETIC FIELDS at STATIC INDUCERS (or STATIC EXCITERS) taking place Simultaneously or in Unison.

This VIRTUAL ACTIONS from STATIC EXCITERS produces an INDUCED EMF on the also STATIC INDUCED COILS-CORE ( or SECONDARIES)

That is the BASIC PRINCIPLE that no matter what, we can not deviate from it.

Now, related to the specific Patent Method to do this job, Figuera makes reference to "Resistance" as He expresses (Page 4, 1908 Patent):

Sea “R” una resistencia que se dibuja de manera elemental

En suma la resistencia hace el oficio de un distribuidor de corriente

Como se ve en el dibujo la corriente una vez ha hecho su oficio en los diferentes electroimanes vuelve al generador de donde se ha tomadoDe esta corriente

My Translation:

Let it be "R" a resistance which is represented on its elemental form (understand most simplified form), in order to facilitate the comprehension of the whole system

Resuming, the resistance does the job of a Current Distributor; where currents which do not excite one set of electromagnets is utilized to excite the others (second set), and so repeatedly, we could say that electrodes N and S operate simultaneously and in opposed directions, based on when the first (set) are filling up with currents, the second ones are emptying out, and so, by repeating this effect continuously and in an organized manner, is maintained a constant alteration on the magnetic fields, inside of which is set the induced circuit, without any more complications than the turning of a brush or set of brushes that move in circle around cylinder G based on the action of a small electric motor.

As shown on diagram, once current has done its job in all electromagnets, it returns to the generator where it was taken from Naturally in every full turn of the brush, there would be a change of sign on the induced current. a commutator would make it continuous "if it is desired". From this (induced) current a small part is derived to excite the machine, converting it in self excited and energizing the small motor that turns brush and commutator; the bait or exterior current is then retired and machine continue its mission without the need of any exterior assistance to keep feeding it indefinitely.

My Analysis of both paragraphs above:

Resistance "R" is represented on drawing on its elementary form...to ease understanding of the whole system...this means that this "elemental form" not necessarily need to be the real, and actual form which in reality takes place on Figuera's system.(please refer to the way a Patent is written in general terms at bottom of this post EDIT 1)

In the first paragraph, I have set in bold letters the first sentence..."the resistance "does the job" of a current distributor", meaning he uses resistance as the simplest method for the reader to understand what he is doing, which is varying the currents fed to primaries. However, at the end of paragraph he emphasizes that the only requirement- without any more complications- is the turn of that small motor which turns brush or brushes.

Without any more complications??!!...Did Figuera forget that "another requirement" was to keep supplying currents from that external source to the whole bunch of resistors and electromagnets??!!

I honestly doubt it.

Now on second paragraph, Figuera writes that after current has "done its job" it returns to the generator where it was taken from. then he suggest to take a very small part from this induced current which is of opposed signs (AC) as it could be converted to DC based on a Second Commutator (as understood another set of brushes as well) to be converted in DC, it is obvious at that time Semiconductors and Diodes were not discovered yet.

But the main part here to analyze and that I find completely nonsense is that Figuera, an Electric Engineer at the time, writes that only a very small part of this induced current is required to excite machine PLUS supply a DC feed to the small motor running NOW a Second Commutator plus Brushes to convert AC to DC, besides its normal drag to spin the single positive brush...And here, I very much doubt that Figuera "just all the sudden forgot" to take account about the HUGE CURRENT LOSSES of his designed System!!??...by the use of so many resistors converting currents into plain and simple HEAT LOSSES, PLUS all the LOSSES taking place to constantly feed back and forth all this sets of electromagnets acting as Primaries or Exciters...PLUS all the energy drawn on the constant drag of a small motor that NOW would be running Two Commutators and at least THREE Brushes on the whole system??!!.

I also doubt that Figuera did not considered such important LOSSES calculations very much!!

So, OBVIOUSLY, the way I see this Patent Disclosure...is that there is "something else" going on here in "backstage", which is NOT OPENLY and DIRECTLY reflected on this whole patent. And simply consists on the REUSING OR RECYCLING OF CURRENTS without THAT MUCH DECAY in LOSSES... which, since the beginnings of electrical engineering times were and MUST BE Considered at the time to design any electrical circuit.

The same way as I started this post...referring to VIRTUAL FIELDS EXPANDING AND CONTRACTING as being the MAIN PRINCIPLE OF THIS PATENT...the same way, Figuera had conceived another "SYSTEM" in the Backstage to RECYCLE CURRENTS without major losses.

Concluding, I fully support Marathonman idea and superb visualization of that part G as being more than a merely "CURRENT DISTRIBUTOR" BUT ALSO a RECYCLABLE DEVICE for ALL Currents utilized on this "Machine".

Honestly I really do not see that much of a "Fantasy or a Myth" to make a Generator Self Excited, providing currents back and forth from inductance to AC, then to DC, in order to supply the "Primaries" to Induce the Mains...everyone of us have one in every home generator...

Building a Resistor based device will do the job as to generate an Induced EMF on the secondaries, and even using Diodes (which were not available in 1908) will save TONS of LOSSES versus a second commutator plus brushes to convert AC to DC...However, WE STILL will have HUGE LOSSES on Resistors HEAT...PLUS the constant alternated increase and decrease of currents in our pretty hefty primaries, which would not be going absolutely anywhere...but to build up more heat.

Therefore, building an "Elementary System" like above, based on resistors... would never become a self sustained device, nor a COP>1 based on the huge losses it presents. It would be just like trying to connect a typical "elementary" motor to "typical" conventional generator...it will produce currents induced...but never be self sustained at all. More In than Out...same game...same BS.

This is just my take about this Patent.


Respectfully


Ufopolitics

EDIT 1: I just forgot another "detail" whenever a Patent is written:

A Patent, in order to be very well protected, must be written in as much as possible "general terms" as the disclosure allows, as long as Patent keeps the MAIN ESSENCE being conveyed in the simplest form possible.

[hanon1492]

I am not contrary to part G. Indeed I think it may work, because MM's mentor is supposedly using one with much success (!!). For me this is the most important sign thai it works. Only that maybe now its available design is not much detailed and may get into a long testing path.

I just say that the patent is describing a simpler system that is based on resistors. If you give the patent to anyone skilled in the art he/she will see a descrption of a resistor system. But OK I should be the only one seeing some resistors there. No problem. I just shared my interpretation and the patent paragraph for others to judge.

If something we all must thanks to MM it is that he is sharing openly his designs, with it is great for all. I already know of some others users that after having a working device they have disapeared from the different forums without telling any construction detail. In this sense we are very lucky with MM attitude, although he and I disagree in which system the patent is describing to modulate the current.

Regards