Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera

[Ufopolitics]

Ufo,

Thanks for the lenghty reply. Using the Figuera device, I'll ride your horsey a bit further down the path. Give me a little time to mount the beast.

Later,

bi

Bistander,

Got it...I also have a lot of work plus tests to do today...take your time.


Regards


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

Ufo,

Thanks for the lenghty reply. Using the Figuera device, I'll ride your horsey a bit further down the path. Give me a little time to mount the beast.

Later,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Significance...of a "Dead Horse" or is it a Stallion?

Just above zero enough to get the domains aligned in the core material I guess.

Hello Bistander,

Just above zero?...any measure above?...sorry but your "guess" is not that "broad" of an analysis... needs to be just a bit deeper:

It is not just to get the domains aligned in the core material (by using singular "core" sounds like you are just considering one core)...when in reality there are two cores interacting there, exciting and excited, and so this Magnetic Field Strength must start at the Exciting core (assisted by reminiscent magnetism) and "grow" (could also say Field Expansion) to such strength Spatially to reach and to Influence (or paraphrasing Figuera: to Magnetize) the Excited Core.

And in your home genny, it would have to be high enough to overcome forward diode drop and then the resistive drop. As you dial up your power supply for your Figuera test circuit I guess there will be some slack around zero to overcome in the power supply and circuit. But I fail to see the significance.

You are failing to see the significance just because you are concentrating on the electrical circuit; diodes, resistance, etc...Diodes plus resistive drops just takes place in the startup of the exciting system, once it start running all these drops become negligible because of the power increase on the system as it gains speed or saying it Faraday's ways...at higher rate of "change"...remember?).

That "Point" refers specifically to Field Magnitude during generator normal operation, not just to bypass startup current forward drops, but to be able to generate the Operating required EMF Induction at the Excited Circuit Output.

And what is the value of that point? In volts or amperes.

So what is that point? Volts, Amps?

Every system (Generator) have different values, it depends on many factors like Core size, Geometry, configuration or type of the exciting system, load capacity, etc,etc

And it is not Volts "or" Amps...but V "and" A, meaning both included...say Watts as a more complete approach. However, depending on the Exciting Coil configuration type...like winding wire gauge and number of turns plus core size...the two (V&A) could radically change the Distribution on the V&A input. For example, my "genny"... has an exciting coil of 65 ohms and very fine wire, meaning many turns...therefore, this config requires higher voltage (175V) and lower amperage (2.0 A) to produce the required Field Strength or Magnitude.

So those are the designed operating parameters. What's your point?

Those operating parameters, since they must be On at all times (meaning they are a fixed constant) in order to generate the required exciting field magnitude -from my point of view- could become a mathematical "Constant"...let's name it "EC" for Exciting Constant, then we could work, based on the Exciting Core Configuration having also fixed parameters values, like Core Volume (CV), Number of Turns (NT), wire gauge (AWG), etc, to take it into a simple Equation.

For example:

CV(Core Volume)+NT(Number of Turns)+AWG(wire Gauge) = EC (Exciting Constant, given in V&A)

And of course we could bring the Equation down to more "detailed", specific parameters, like CV could be broken into A (Cross Section of core) by(multiplying) Length (l), or [A . l = CV] and this applies for a rectangular or cylindrical core. And so, obviously, CV parameters depends on Core Volume Geometry, where a Toroid Core have a different way to calculate its CV.

What's your point?

My point is to reach an Equation which based on a given EC (Exciting Field Constant Feed), say 50V and 4 Amps...we could then calculate our other parameters having (knowing) at least just one of them...say Core Volume (CV)...then find required AWG and Number of Turns (NT).

And so, once we calculate Exciting System, then we could move on a Second Equation for the output excited circuit, parting from its exciting system...in Figuera's talking about the secondaries.

Final Destination: A Full Design of the Generator by Scaling Equations which could be adapted to our Figuera System.

I don't think so. It may be the case for a particular system, but it is not an universally valid statement.

And I disagree with this.

Regards.

bi

It is ok to disagree...but this is a fact, every Generator works with a Fixed Field Strength Value which operates FULLY ON at all times, so this System Feed is also Constant, reason why the Farting Machine must keep up RPM's constant, so it keeps feeding back properly (Torque enters the "variable scenario" when an external load is applied, but it remains constant at idle by a Phantom Load created by its own Exciting System)...and this applies to any size generator...no matter if it is brushed or brushless...self or externally excited, etc.

On the other hand, I know You may wanna bring some more complex machines, like a Three Phase kind...where exciting System works a bit different...but this is NOT the point here...we (I basically) am looking to start my analysis with simpler machines like a Home Generator...Single Phase.

Jumping into more complex generators before satisfying what we are looking for here, with simple machines... is just going to make noise and generate confusion.

Figuera is based on a simple Generator related to Primaries Secondaries, which could only relate to a Single Phase Generator, except that its Exciting System is split into Dual Cores-Coils acting on a single excited core... and so, only thing to do is split the Equation for two cores from a Single Exciting Core basic Equation, with the Same feeding Constant on V&A (EC).

Let's call this a dead horse and if you want to beat it further, start a new thread or show its relevance to the thread topic.

Of course anyone could see this topic is "very relevant" to this Figuera Thread and also to the Continuum Builders Thread.

If You do not see it so, maybe just because you do not agree with it...or because you have not even run the simplest test about the Figuera Device operation, so, you are missing the great potential this development means at all...then it becomes just your isolated, singular point of view and so your lonely opinion here.

And related to this Thread...the Thread Owner (Wonju) has abandoned it long time ago...so it is really just a "revived thread" from many different members...and so it have no administrator to rule what is and what's not "Topic Related" that I know off.

Concluding..This Topic is Not about a Dead Horse to me...:

[IMG][/IMG]

but a very Young, Alive, Strong and Very Fast galloping Stallion.

You wanna take it for a ride?...it is Up to You...but...just got to be a very good experienced Jockey to do it.

And please, do not "beat" it...Stallion may get very upset...and you riding it...


Regards and Good luck on your ride...


Maybe I could hear the opinion from other Members here...if they could "handle" the Stallion...




Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

But of course you know that!!...of course you know very well there is a specific Field Magnitude point, or range which could be even better defined as Strength and Volume, on the EXCITER SYSTEM of any Generator in order to "start" the growing Induction Process all the way to the expected output.

Just above zero enough to get the domains aligned in the core material I guess. And in your home genny, it would have to be high enough to overcome forward diode drop and then the resistive drop. As you dial up your power supply for your Figuera test circuit I guess there will be some slack around zero to overcome in the power supply and circuit. But I fail to see the significance.

And so, just a minimal value below that "point/range" will collapse Induction at mains.

And what is the value of that point? In volts or amperes.

Examples?...My Old Home tested Generator that I have shown before...the one my neighbor gave me....and that I conducted several readings on the exciting field V & A, and Citfta and You helped me to get connections right...remember?

That Exciting Field needs to range in a specific Voltage (170+ V) and a certain specific amperage (+/- 2.0 Amps) in order for the Required Field Magnitude to generate the 4400 Watts on Induced Coils.

So those are the designed operating parameters. What's your point?

On a more specific example and "Topic Related"...On my Figuera Resistor Testing we could see that effect even more "vivid" I could say...when dialing up V & A on PSU feeding Primaries...there is a "Specific Point" where Induction will start "showing" at secondary(ies) at low speed...but that's not all...it must increase when speed increases without touching those V&A values. And so, a drop of a few Milli Units whether on V or A...will collapse Induction no matter speed of small motor.

This point serves me to be able to check compare different type of components design/structures in order to see which one would be more effective in the search process.

So what is that point? Volts, Amps?

Comprende Amigo?

I don't think so.

..However, we all know that the Field Magnitude is also proportional to the EMF result.

It may be the case for a particular system, but it is not an universally valid statement.

Meaning, there is a "point" in the field strength scale where there would not be any EMF output, no matter how much that change rate increases.

And I disagree with this.

Regards.

bi

Let's call this a dead horse and if you want to beat it further, start a new thread or show its relevance to the thread topic.

[bistander]

When we build and test we must ask ourselves how can I verify what I think I'm seeing and measuring?.

I agree.

I am aware of what you describe below although I have never seen it demonstrated in a 1" aluminum plate. One might liken it to reasons why streams and rivers flow not in straight paths to the ocean even across seemingly flat land.
bi

Did you know a current across a 1" thick block of aluminum plate never follows a straight line as we generally believe it should?. You see it's own magnetic field causes it to bend in an arc given the chance, what we call self-induction where the current produces a magnetic field which then changes the path of the current in this case. One would seldom suspect this is true until they followed through and actually measured the path of the current and it's magnetic field across the aluminum plate with various sensors. In this case it was proven that the current does not always take the shortest path of least resistance because of it's own existence.

The devil is always in the details and everything must always be questioned then verified.

AC

[Allcanadian]

Hey Bistander

I was responding to Ufo and what I thought he meant by serious research. Candle light or garage benchtop research can indeed be serious. I think my own "lab" is a step up from that, but with self funding with my means, humble to say the least. Occasionally I get serious there.

I understand you were responding to UFO when I barged in and I wanted to add a little context and maybe a little humor.

Have you ever played golf?, I love just getting outside and smacking the ball around. It doesn't take long to figure out the follow through is almost as important as hitting the ball. A good follow through happens after the fact however it also gives a good indication of the swing into the ball and the strike.

Research is like that and it is one thing to measure something and quite another to follow through to determine what was actually measured and if it gave us any real insight. In the Figuera device I used my DSO to measure the parameters in regards to the Primary/Secondary coils like most would then I used a $2 hall effect sensor to correlate current/voltage versus field strength and direction.

The trick here is to remove as much speculation from the equation as we can. Do the two primaries fields actually expand and contract in unison, how do they interact, where do they interact, is it as we expected or is something else happening?. It is strange that a $2 sensor has shown me so many things over the years that I have never read in a book. Research and experiments are hard enough as we all know and most often it is the little things we take for granted and simply pass over that effect the outcome.

When we build and test we must ask ourselves how can I verify what I think I'm seeing and measuring?. Did you know a current across a 1" thick block of aluminum plate never follows a straight line as we generally believe it should?. You see it's own magnetic field causes it to bend in an arc given the chance, what we call self-induction where the current produces a magnetic field which then changes the path of the current in this case. One would seldom suspect this is true until they followed through and actually measured the path of the current and it's magnetic field across the aluminum plate with various sensors. In this case it was proven that the current does not always take the shortest path of least resistance because of it's own existence.

The devil is always in the details and everything must always be questioned then verified.

AC

[Ufopolitics]

Hi Ufo,

Back on your post #1771:

But is off topic here. Sorry I mentioned it again.

Wow Bistander...like I wrote to you on my recent post, specifying "in our conversation" I did not mentioned "Conspiracy" meaning You and Me discussion. is exactly what I meant in the whole sentence...that post was addressed to Duncan...(I had to search for it to give link here...all the way to page 60).

Conspiracy word...I have mentioned on this Forum about a Billion Times...for sure and may run short...

Good you realize this. But then how can you go on to say this?

"we all know that" ? I'm sorry but I don't know. I don't think what you say is correct but it is difficult to understand its meaning. Can you cite a source or give an example?

Regards,

bi

But of course you know that!!...of course you know very well there is a specific Field Magnitude point, or range which could be even better defined as Strength and Volume, on the EXCITER SYSTEM of any Generator in order to "start" the growing Induction Process all the way to the expected output.

And so, just a minimal value below that "point/range" will collapse Induction at mains.

And of course, this is putting aside the ratio of change or speed, torque, etc,etc.

Examples?...My Old Home tested Generator that I have shown before...the one my neighbor gave me....and that I conducted several readings on the exciting field V & A, and Citfta and You helped me to get connections right...remember?

That Exciting Field needs to range in a specific Voltage (170+ V) and a certain specific amperage (+/- 2.0 Amps) in order for the Required Field Magnitude to generate the 4400 Watts on Induced Coils.

On a more specific example and "Topic Related"...On my Figuera Resistor Testing we could see that effect even more "vivid" I could say...when dialing up V & A on PSU feeding Primaries...there is a "Specific Point" where Induction will start "showing" at secondary(ies) at low speed...but that's not all...it must increase when speed increases without touching those V&A values. And so, a drop of a few Milli Units whether on V or A...will collapse Induction no matter speed of small motor.

This point serves me to be able to check compare different type of components design/structures in order to see which one would be more effective in the search process.


Comprende Amigo?


Take care


Ufopolitics

[bistander]

Reply to AC

@bistander

... As well you do not need money to conduct serious research you only need to be serious about your research.
...
AC

Hi AC,

Thanks for the reply. I like your style. In regards to the quote snip, yes you are correct, but realize the context. I was responding to Ufo and what I thought he meant by serious research. Candle light or garage benchtop research can indeed be serious. I think my own "lab" is a step up from that, but with self funding with my means, humble to say the least. Occasionally I get serious there.

Regards,

bi

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

Ha,ha,ha,ha...And I have not included on my conversation with you the word "conspiracy" at all...

Hi Ufo,

Back on your post #1771:

Oh!..No, No...there is no such Conspiration at all...lol

But is off topic here. Sorry I mentioned it again.

I was wrong when I wrote "Magnitude" related to the Field as cited in Faraday's Laws, sorry, my bad...

Good you realize this. But then how can you go on to say this?

However, we all know that the Field Magnitude is also proportional to the EMF result. Meaning, there is a "point" in the field strength scale where there would not be any EMF output, no matter how much that change rate increases.

"we all know that" ? I'm sorry but I don't know. I don't think what you say is correct but it is difficult to understand its meaning. Can you cite a source or give an example?

Regards,

bi

[Ufopolitics]

Hello Allcanadian, I am the first to admit that any thing i build or know is based on someone else s findings or work, however, i will soon be winding my primary coils for this device.

If you have knowledge of how Mr Figuera, wound his primary coils could you please share for the common good.

Regards Cornboy.

Hello Cornboy,

Just trying to go over what AC wrote...the only Two Inventors mentioned on Figuera's Patent (1908) were Pixii and Clarke.

And so, if we perform a "quick search" on these two primitive machines...we found out there is not even a basic explanation about how coils were wound on them both...

Difference from both machines is basically the way rotation and gears take place geometrically...same "U" Magnet and two coils...Pixii rotates the Magnet...Clarke rotates the Coils...same principle..."different color"...

Figuera mentions these two machines as the more basic forms of generation of electricity in our history...and so up to now...where there is always have been a need for a mechanical movement of either one of the parts involved...is called "Prior Art" on a basic and "legal" method of a Patent Structure.

Where His Machine brakes all existing mechanical requirements known since primitive to contemporary art...

Anyways...this is just my take on this...


Regards friend.



Ufopolitics

[Ufopolitics]

That is the magnitude of emf, not of the magnetic field or magnetic flux.

Hello Bistander,

Yes, I understand that perfectly well.

The EMF Magnitude (as a result product) is proportional to the rate of change of the Magnetic Field.

I was wrong when I wrote "Magnitude" related to the Field as cited in Faraday's Laws, sorry, my bad...However, we all know that the Field Magnitude is also proportional to the EMF result. Meaning, there is a "point" in the field strength scale where there would not be any EMF output, no matter how much that change rate increases.

I was not "specifically" referring to Figuera's Patent either. I still don't understand. I'll tell you it is not a conspiracy.

Ha,ha,ha,ha...And I have not included on my conversation with you the word "conspiracy" at all...

What is this?...a "Non Including" discussion contest?

Any physicist, scientist, or engineer who sees the faintest glimer of excess energy or OU will be all over it in a heartbeat.

Negative...Any Scientist or Engineer of enough reputation in the "Social or Royal Science Elite" would be very much afraid and hesitating to just walk out the door and start sharing his findings worldwide...precisely because of those "OU Laws Limitations" which you mentioned below...and that definitively would completely destroy his reputation as a Scientist.

This Laws have created a very strict and very well enforced line, which not really "any Scientist" out there would just cross that easy...or will be automatically set in the ridicule, plus all personal losses involved.

But the big obstacle is that OU violates some basic principles or laws of physics.

There You go!...that "big obstacle" is exactly what I was referring prior.

And the funny thing is that those "Limiting Ancient Laws" were written to define and understand the behavior of Hydraulics and Steam Engines respectively back then. None of them refers directly to Electromagnetism, they were ALL started -by men- before even Faraday was born (referring to the ancient beginnings of these laws "essence/spirit", except for the contemporary "patches" done to them, to keep them refreshed and very generally-legally written as for the Centuries and New Generations to come, believe in them like a fanatic to a God...amen ).

Point is...All these Laws were written regardless and completely ignoring the way Nature and Universal Laws really works...

So to get serious research (read money) some extraordinary proof or evidence is needed.

So according to our discussion here...do not expect this "Extraordinary Proof" or "Evidence" to be coming anytime soon and directly from the "Royal Scientific Society Elite"...but as All Canadian wrote above...from a very small, and limited source of research and development of a totally unknown source (meaning not popular) "Elite of Underground Garage Researchers"...

I still believe for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So I fully expect when you do succeed in getting output power from your Y coil, you'll find you have an input power larger than that. But prove me wrong, please.

bi

Figuera's Patent is not "perfect" as it also have many loose ends...what I use from Figuera is the basic explanation of his machine...which could be modified the way we feel it should be improved and still perform as expected, or better, by adapting it to our times technological developments advancements.

For example, Figuera was using a "Second Commutator" adding more drag to the single small motor described on 1908 Patent...just to convert the Induced Output Sine back to DC to self sustain machine...and now we just need some efficient diodes which use minimal energy and does not add mechanical drag. Same way we could use a very small board loaded with tiny electronic components and mimic the same exact primaries waveform...for even less energy spent that small motor and brush...and so on and on...

Another drawback I find in Figuera's design...is to move the Inducing Field(s) in a "Reciprocating and Linear Fashion"...which diverges from the conventional methods of Home and Industrial Electrical Generation. The limitation here is related to the Field Spatial Range and its traveling path which is very restricted to the length and width of the induced core...in other words...the same basic idea but applied to a Rotational "Mimicking" of the converge-diverge fields through time would be a wider range of core induction coverage...therefore, way more efficient.

Resuming here...there are many ways to improve Figuera's Design...but only once we could see there is a potential and basic, single design which works and "brake" some Ancient Laws...then it is just a matter of "reproducing modules"...


There is nothing more exciting for me in this whole world...as to prove you wrong...just because it is nothing "personal" about you...but the whole "Dogmatic Scientific Establishment" behind your beliefs...as of billions of others "Bistanders".


Regards


Ufopolitics

[Cornboy 555]

Hello Allcanadian, I am the first to admit that any thing i build or know is based on someone else s findings or work, however, i will soon be winding my primary coils for this device.

If you have knowledge of how Mr Figuera, wound his primary coils could you please share for the common good.

Regards Cornboy.

[Allcanadian]

@bistander

I was not "specifically" referring to Figuera's Patent either. I still don't understand. I'll tell you it is not a conspiracy.

Your not understanding isn't a conspiracy?... I believe you.

It's okay UFO doesn't understand either however if he keeps this up he may in the future. I liked the parallel winding's comment however this is not how Figuera wound his primaries. Figuera indirectly mentions how he wound his coils by referencing another inventor which is where he got his idea from in the first place.

I'm actually amazed MM mentioned parallel winding's however who MM got the idea from remains a mystery. Therein lies the trick, everyone including myself borrows from others and as Einstein said- "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources". We all do it, we just don't tell anyone.

But the big obstacle is that OU violates some basic principles or laws of physics.

It's not a big obstacle unless you wholeheartedly believe it's true... then why bother?.

So to get serious research (read money) some extraordinary proof or evidence is needed. I still believe for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So I fully expect when you do succeed in getting output power from your Y coil, you'll find you have an input power larger than that. But prove me wrong, please.

There is always an equal and opposite reaction... the question is how many actions do you have occurring, to what extent and how does this effect the reaction. As well you do not need money to conduct serious research you only need to be serious about your research. Some of our greatest discoveries were made by candle light in a room smaller than my garage. Serious research is about putting all the things you think you know aside and concentrating on finding answers to what you do not know.

The trick here is thinking of something peculiar and asking yourself...what would happen?. If you do not know your on the right track and you should probably find out what would happen. This is how we learn, reading a book is not learning reading a book is memorizing what someone else has learned.

AC

[bistander]

Output power

Ahh, I was just speaking about output power, from the secondary or part Y. Then I see this MM post on the other thread.

...
one thing people need to remember is what ever power requirements your secondary is set at your primaries split the difference....ie each is responsible for half the induction required from the secondary output.

How does one set the power requirements of the secondary? He says split the difference. Difference between what?

...
I just love how those Classic trained nutz twist things and add what ever they want to redirect from the real cause of lack of understanding on their part. that is the end of my attempt to inform and will concentrate on this thread ONLY. what ever possessed me to want to try in the first place i have no idea.

MM

So I guess MM won't be answering my posts with insults. That's good.

[bistander]

Reply to Ufo

I was referring to "Magnitude" as it is recited on Faraday's Second Law of Induction:

That is the magnitude of emf, not of the magnetic field or magnetic flux.

Bistander, my question was not "specifically" referring to Figuera's Patent...but to Figuera's thinking about that "Scientific Fact"...remember?

In other words...:

Why Science related to Magnetism and Human Race Advancement, basically on the Energy Field...have not dedicated to deeply study that Scientific Fact?

The Scientific Fact that just takes a Magnetic Phantom Field Movement to generate an Induced EMF?

(used the word "Phantom" as not to write again "Virtual" or " Non Physical", as well as massless, weightless, invisible Field, etc...I am getting tired of the same recitation over and over...may use "Spirit" as well)

You and Citfta have admitted that "any change" on the Field would cause an EMF...and so...almost 200 years have gone by...and we are still depending upon moving tons of iron rotors and copper wire to make Energy, achieved by the Herculean Farting Machines...?

It is a fact, admitted by You and Citfta, that by just the movement, the Fluctuation, or "generally speaking" the change of this Phantom Field, while all components are Static...generates an EMF.

Do you understand the question now?

I was not "specifically" referring to Figuera's Patent either. I still don't understand. I'll tell you it is not a conspiracy. Any physicist, scientist, or engineer who sees the faintest glimer of excess energy or OU will be all over it in a heartbeat. But the big obstacle is that OU violates some basic principles or laws of physics. So to get serious research (read money) some extraordinary proof or evidence is needed. I still believe for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So I fully expect when you do succeed in getting output power from your Y coil, you'll find you have an input power larger than that. But prove me wrong, please.

bi